AGC & EEP: Far East

[unmerged(8215)]

Great. Japanese gamers often complain about the lack of 1541 teppo(firearms) event.

Strictly speaking, Sakai was not an island but a city surrounded by great moats. It located just south of Osaka.
See also http://www.kiis.or.jp/kansaida/sakai/sakai-map-e.html

 

[unmerged(2456)]

so which province then should get the weapons manufactory and artillery? Kantou? Kansai?

 

[unmerged(31678)]

No it shouldn't. Really sugar should be removed from all provinces not connected to the new world (americas) in a way that was part of the slavery as sugar is one of the 4 province goods that increase the tax value based on the number and value of the slave provinces owned.

But China did not have slave.

 

[unmerged(8215)]

so which province then should get the weapons manufactory and artillery? Kantou? Kansai?

I bet on Kansai.

The Kansai region consists of Kyoto and Osaka. Sakai is generally considered as a part of Osaka district.
I also think it better to give a weapon factory to Kyoto than Edo due to the event. Historically Kyoto had a stronger tie with Sakai.

 

[unmerged(27373)]

so which province then should get the weapons manufactory and artillery? Kantou? Kansai?

Probably Kansai. Commercial merchants as well as some craftsman, tea ceremony people tend to center around Osaka/Sakai/Kyoto area. Oda Nobunaga or maybe Takeda Shingen hired some craftsman to build them some cannon or musket, can't remember the biographies I've read.

Generally speaking, due to sea trade (Mori family, Shima, etc.) southern Japan, including southern part of Honshu (or Chugoku) tend to receive outside tech first then spread to rest of Japan. I believe Shima was the first daimyo to employ muskets in battle but it was Oda who later found out how to use them more effectively.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Sorry to pour out a lot of opinions today. I have to say that stats of three monarch in Qing dynasty (both in CHI and MCH) are inaccurate. Those three monarch created the last golden ages in China empire. They deserve much more stats. I think it will not change the balance of game too much.

1. Kangxi (id = 7416 in CHI, id = 8415 in MCH)
He seized the power from the dictatorial assistant in his 15 year old. Then, he conquered the three revolted states leading by Wu San Gui . He also led the army by himself to defeat mongol with long march six times. Most of important of all, he governed to control infamous Yellow River which flooded a lot. He also have very good diplomatic strategy with mongol tribes. He is the one deserving ADM = 9 DIP = 9 MIL = 9 in last two Chinese dynasty.

2. Yangzheng (id = 7417 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
Some said he was a tyrant. But he was rude to officers, but kind to people. He was good at administration, and killed a lot of collapsed officers to keep fisc full. He conducted several reformation to improve productitvity and reduce unfairness. He deserves ADM = 9

3. Qianlong (id = 7418 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
In his era, the several revolters in uighur and tibet were conquered. The society was so rich that it started to collaps after he dead. He deserves ADM = 7 MIL =7.

After playing, I realized that The Manchu Takeover of China should be added more. Since manchu should have the core on the original territory. Mofidied as follows

#The Manchu Takeover of China#
event = {
id = 10043
trigger = {
event = 10016
}
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10043"
desc = "EVENTHIST10043"
style = 3

date = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 26 month = april year = 1699 }

action_a = {#Long live the Qing Dynasty of the Manchu!#
name = "ACTIONNAME10043A"
command = { type = country which = MCH }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 5 }
command = { type = add_countryculture which = manchu } #Added back
command = { type = addcore which = 625 }
command = { type = addcore which = 626 }
command = { type = addcore which = 627 }
command = { type = addcore which = 628 }
command = { type = addcore which = 634 }
command = { type = addcore which = 635 }
command = { type = addcore which = 636 }
command = { type = addcore which = 637 }
command = { type = addcore which = 638 }
command = { type = addcore which = 639 }
command = { type = addcore which = 640 }
command = { type = addcore which = 643 }
command = { type = addcore which = 644 }
}
}

i agree with these 2 changes. with korea, i think it is difficult to take the concept of 'vassalisation' in the game literally and impose it on china, since vassalisation for China is a form of guarantee of independence. So tibet is a vassal in the game because it already submitted its sovereignty to the Ming Empire and let Ming administration control its affairs. for Korea i think the extent of authority is less and should not translate into vassalisation in the way it works in the game.

Taiwan probablz shouldnot have chinaware but right now i cannot think of another good.

 

[Yakman]

I think the suggestion of furs has been raised for Taiwan, with some reasons.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

1. Kangxi (id = 7416 in CHI, id = 8415 in MCH)
He seized the power from the dictatorial assistant in his 15 year old. Then, he conquered the three revolted states leading by Wu San Gui . He also led the army by himself to defeat mongol with long march six times. Most of important of all, he governed to control infamous Yellow River which flooded a lot. He also have very good diplomatic strategy with mongol tribes. He is the one deserving ADM = 9 DIP = 9 MIL = 9 in last two Chinese dynasty.

2. Yangzheng (id = 7417 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
Some said he was a tyrant. But he was rude to officers, but kind to people. He was good at administration, and killed a lot of collapsed officers to keep fisc full. He conducted several reformation to improve productitvity and reduce unfairness. He deserves ADM = 9

3. Qianlong (id = 7418 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
In his era, the several revolters in uighur and tibet were conquered. The society was so rich that it started to collaps after he dead. He deserves ADM = 7 MIL =7.

9's are extremely good stats. Especially given that CHina is too strong then anyway. Could you provide more info on why these guys should have some of the best stats in the game?

The Firearm production come to Japan needs to have a counter-event, something along the lines of "suppression of firearm production in Japan". I agree that Japanese firearms are very important in the 16th century, but by the early 18th they were of no consequence at all.

Also, I don't understand why firearms make them mroe offensive. Logically, the use of firearms implies less emphasis on closingand forcing a battle to decision, and more emphasis on choosing terrain that favours volley fire and protecting musketeers/arquebusiers. It also implies a better ability to batter down fortifications, which is in fact what happened in Japan. All of this sounds much more defensive than traditional Japanese tactics.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

1. Kangxi (id = 7416 in CHI, id = 8415 in MCH)
He seized the power from the dictatorial assistant in his 15 year old. Then, he conquered the three revolted states leading by Wu San Gui . He also led the army by himself to defeat mongol with long march six times. Most of important of all, he governed to control infamous Yellow River which flooded a lot. He also have very good diplomatic strategy with mongol tribes. He is the one deserving ADM = 9 DIP = 9 MIL = 9 in last two Chinese dynasty.

2. Yangzheng (id = 7417 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
Some said he was a tyrant. But he was rude to officers, but kind to people. He was good at administration, and killed a lot of collapsed officers to keep fisc full. He conducted several reformation to improve productitvity and reduce unfairness. He deserves ADM = 9

3. Qianlong (id = 7418 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
In his era, the several revolters in uighur and tibet were conquered. The society was so rich that it started to collaps after he dead. He deserves ADM = 7 MIL =7.

9's are extremely good stats. Especially given that CHina is too strong then anyway. Could you provide more info on why these guys should have some of the best stats in the game?

i think what he says already justifies very high stats, if it wasnt made clear enough that Qing dynasty during this time was one of the best periods in China in its entire several thousand years of history. Qing empire´s borders expanded more than double during the time of these 3 emperors and ALL other nations in East Asia became its vassal. economic output and population rapidly increased. These general facts coupled with some more specific details he mentioned already warrants extremely high stats. unless someone could show the contrary, i think the kind of stat he mentioned is justifiable historically.

i m not going to make detailed arguments that the stat must be 9 not 8 or must be 8 not 7 as i dont think such negligible things are worth arguing about. so i have no objection if someone out of whatever reason wants it to be + or - 1 the stats mentioned by jchiang.

on the other hand gameplay arguments were not considered by jchiang. whatever the historical facts may be it would have no bearing on the gameplay outcome. if someone wants to argue against high stats purely because of gameplay outcome, then the historical facts would have no relevance.

 

[Yakman]

I also agree with jchiang's assessment. These three guys were good emperors, while Kangxi and Qianlong were great.

 

[ptan54]

Hi all,

Just played China in the Mercantilism scenario to see whether I could survive with the Ming Dynasty. I did, but found the Vanilla EU2 events to be terrible at modelling this time period. I have not perused carefully what the team has done to rectify this, but here are a few points:

1) Manchus gain much of the Hebei area and 95% of the time their capital moves to Beijing. By the 1680s, I had soundly defeated Manchu in a few wars and the Ming was well on its way to recovering the land lost to the Manchus, but the stupid 1683 (??) event fired, +10 RR because "The war is going nowhere." As we all know we cannot demand a capital province in a peace treaty - yet if the Ming armies crush the Manchus, surely the war ISNT lost. It's "lost" because of the idiotic diplomatic model EU2 uses. In real life, one could imagine the Ming armies sweeping north of the Great Wall and driving out the Manchus. So I think it's fair to have some sort of event that checks for control of provinces, and to have Manchu cede all the land south of the Great Wall back to the Ming and move the capital to Harbin or wherever it was. When the Ming retakes Beijing, the capital should be moved to Beijing once again.

2) Wu Sangui and other revolters, as well as Zheng Cheng Gong on Taiwan should be simulated. Might be a good idea for a Qing China to have the dragon as the shield - I know its possible for a country to change flags mid game, since the St George cross changes to the Union flag for England to Britain. Zheng Cheng Gong would be a very interesting faction, full naval, with colonists (I remember they had a plan to colonise Philippines and use that as a further base to revive the Ming).

3) This was mentioned early on by Sun Zi, but people should be allowed to claim the tag of China in the same way that France can be claimed, pending on control of certain provinces.....We'd have to set up an appropriate Dynasty name for them as well, for example Li Zicheng was Xun (??).

4) Fall of the Ming should see loads of revolters pop up, each able to do what I mentioned in 3). Right now it's a bit too easy to survive these tumultuous times. Of course Wu Sangui should get an option in 1644 (a) open the pass (b) proclaim himself King of Yan(??) and make war on Li (c) accept Li's rule. That said, there should be a way to make 1644 avoidable - perhaps a combination of sliders, tech levels etc to see whether we are looking at an advanced or stagnant China?

Keep up the good work.

 

[doktarr]

Ptan,

There's was some work done on this period in the EEP, and those changes have been carried over to the AGCEEP. Notably, the Ming become "southern Ming" in 1644, and there's a couple other revolter states like Dai Xi. All of these states, along with the Manchu, have a "crown of China" event that fires if they control certain key provinces.

That said, the event sequnce is still a little weak in my opinion, and relies too heavily on countrywide revoltrisk. There's also the problem that the Manchu tend to trigger the tag change very quickly, which means you have to conquer them completely (just as you were forced to do) to become China. We should be using province-based RR, scripted rebellions, and released tags to model things more accurately. Your ideas for the area sound very good and could be germ of better events. Maybe you and Sun Zi should meet for coffee and work it out.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I like ptan's ideas. The trick will be making somehting concrete out of them. The revoltrisk problem is quite serious since we're more or less based on the vanilla version and monthly revolts (which is, of course, what the AI faces).

I also agree with jchiang's assessment. These three guys were good emperors, while Kangxi and Qianlong were great.

But then I was reminded of this post. Here are all the AGCEEP monarchs who have ADM =9 (and in my opinion there are too many of them).

Skanderbeg 8/9/9
Boromo Trailokanat 5/9/5 (AYU)
Maximilian I 7/9/7
Henry IV 9/9/9
Frederick I 7/9/7
Frederick II 9/9/9
Charles II 6/9/8 (BUR)
Christian IV 2/9/3
Elizabeth 9/9/8
Qwastantinos I 8/9/8 (ETH)
Napoleon 6/9/9
Leopold I 7/9/8
Julius 5/9/4 (HAN)
Charles V 6/9/8
William III 7/9/7
Gian Francesco I 8/9/5 (MAN)
Ludovico il Turco 7/9/6 (MAN)
Giovanni I de' Medici 7/9/8 (TOS)
Cosimo de' Medici 8/9/8 (TOS)
Lorenzo il Magnifica 7/9/6 (TOS)
Alexis 7/9/7 (KAL Theodoro)
Charles III 8/9/7 (LOR)
Parakrama Bahu VI 8/9/6 (MAI, Ceylon)
Muhammad 'Ali 7/9/9 (MAM)
Ahalya Bai 7/9/5 (MLW)
Ismâ'îl 8/9/9 (MOR)
Peter the Great 9/9/9
Catherine the Great 9/9/8
Pengeran Sutan Tranganna 6/9/6 (MTR)
Tabinshwehti 8/9/8 MYA
Abbas the Great 8/9/9
Jose I 6/9/6 (POR)
Gustav Vasa 7/9/7
Gustavus Adolphus 9/9/9
Süleyman the Magnificent 7/9/9
Laurenti Priuli 6/9/4 (VEN)

The only 9/9/9's are Henry IV, Peter the Great, Frederick the Great, and Gustavus Adolphus. Does Kangxi belong with them?

With Kangxi folowed by Yangzheng there will be two sucessive monarchs with ADM=9. As of right now only Mantua (?) and Tuscany have two sucessive monarchs with ADM=9. Is this change a good idea?

And I'd emphasize that while there are an awful lot of monarchs with ADM=9, the majority are not very important because they appear for more or less meaningless states (though I'll admit that Tuscany is an exception, with the high ADM it poses a serious problem for the Latin infra neighbour bonus). China on the other hand is very important.

 

[doktarr]

The only 9/9/9's are Henry IV, Peter the Great, Frederick the Great, and Gustavus Adolphus.

And Akbar the great, who you presumably missed because we're still using the vanilla Mughal monarch file.

is Does Kangxi belong with them?

Well, given that Henri is the only 9/9/9 who is not regularly given the appelation "the Great", perhaps a decent question is whether Kangzi is known as "Kangzi the Great" of some Chinese equivalent.

With Kangxi folowed by Yangzheng there will be two sucessive monarchs with ADM=9. As of right now only Mantua (?) and Tuscany have two sucessive monarchs with ADM=9. Is this change a good idea?

If the assesments of these guys are accurate, maybe Yangzheng could be dropped to ADM 8 or so for balance reasons.

And I'd emphasize that while there are an awful lot of monarchs with ADM=9, the majority are not very important because they appear for more or less meaningless states (though I'll admit that Tuscany is an exception, with the high ADM it poses a serious problem for the Latin infra neighbour bonus). China on the other hand is very important.

If other changes we make work, then China should be well behind in tech when these guys show up. Besides, monarch investment bonus, while always a nice benefit, is far less significant for massive China than for relatively small Tuscany.

 

[unmerged(31678)]

And Akbar the great, who you presumably missed because we're still using the vanilla Mughal monarch file.Well, given that Henri is the only 9/9/9 who is not regularly given the appelation "the Great", perhaps a decent question is whether Kangzi is known as "Kangzi the Great" of some Chinese equivalent. If the assesments of these guys are accurate, maybe Yangzheng could be dropped to ADM 8 or so for balance reasons.If other changes we make work, then China should be well behind in tech when these guys show up. Besides, monarch investment bonus, while always a nice benefit, is far less significant for massive China than for relatively small Tuscany.

There are three famous series of books in Chinese about these three emperors. Only Kangxi has "the Great" in book title. He was in the same period with "Peter the Great" in Russia. China defeated Russia several times in the north of Manchuria. Then they made the peace treaty in Nerchinsk since Kangxi would like to focus on the war with Mongolian revolter. I think he deserves 9/9/9 because he was a ALIEN (not Han) but did great things to make Han accept his ruling. Before him, China was not well ruled by Manchu. In his age, he united China effectively and formed the basic territory of modern China. He was among the greatest emperor in the China dynasties. About Yangzheng, you are right. ADM 8 seems to be more suitable. The tech base of China is so large that several points increasing will not matter that much. Just wanna make it more historical. BTW, if Yongle deserves 9/8/8, Kangxi deserves 9/9/9. The latter is just much greater.

 

[ptan54]

How does one script province based revolts? I too agree that country wide revolts are idiotic, since rebellions were often localised in nature and back in those days there was no way for rebel leaders to broadcast their message over the airwaves, nor did they intend to do the "Today China, tomorrow the world" type of revolution - they just wanted lots of cash and a better life.

Manchu changes tag to China very quickly you say? I would suggest that the control of important southern cities (Nanjing, Chengdu, maybe even Guangzhou) would be necessary before one could declare itself "China", at least that would leave the crown up for grabs between the factions.

And oh - Portugal owning Guangdong is just plain stupid, Macau is smaller than HK island! They had a port, but it was nowhere near as large and important as the entire province of Guangdong. Also, China can't see Lisbon on the map - don't you think the Ming/Qing would know of Portugal's existence if they let them take Macau? Bit ridiculous to be unable to conduct foreign policy with an entity that you know exists but cannot contact.....

 

[unmerged(6159)]

.... About Yangzheng, you are right. ADM 8 seems to be more suitable. The tech base of China is so large that several points increasing will not matter that much. Just wanna make it more historical. BTW, if Yongle deserves 9/8/8, Kangxi deserves 9/9/9. The latter is just much greater.

Tech is not the only thing affected by ADM, and for china it is obviously not the most important thing (given that China is so rich and big) It also affects conversions chances, and trade success. So saying that China's rulers should have beter stats because China is so big doesn't cut it for me.

I don't have a huge issue with 9/9/9 for Kangxi. I just don't see the justification for 9/9/9 monarch followed by 9/8/8 monarch. No other country in the world has such a progression. And 9/8/8 is better than Napoleon and as good as Suleyman the Magnificent.

 

[doktarr]

How does one script province based revolts? I too agree that country wide revolts are idiotic, since rebellions were often localised in nature and back in those days there was no way for rebel leaders to broadcast their message over the airwaves, nor did they intend to do the "Today China, tomorrow the world" type of revolution - they just wanted lots of cash and a better life.

It is not at all hard to script revolts in specific provinces, or revoltrisk in specific provinces. I suggest you read Havard's event scripting manual if you want details. If you're moderately familiar with any programming, scripting, or markup languages, you can probably figure it out just by diving into the /db/events folder in your hard drive and poking around.

Manchu changes tag to China very quickly you say? I would suggest that the control of important southern cities (Nanjing, Chengdu, maybe even Guangzhou) would be necessary before one could declare itself "China", at least that would leave the crown up for grabs between the factions.

The event, as written, requires that you control a bunch of northern Chinese provinces, and that China does not exist. The problem is that the Manchu takeover events hand most of these provinces to the Manchu immediately in 1644. So they generally trigger the China event sometime shortly thereafter. The simplest solution here (i.e. what we should do right away; a band aid for the situation) would be to delay the startdate for the Manchu version of the event, so that the southern Ming and Dai Xi have a chance to beat the Manchu before they become China. The more accurate solution would be to re-write the whole sequence, so that the Manchu have to work a little to conquer northern China.

And oh - Portugal owning Guangdong is just plain stupid, Macau is smaller than HK island! They had a port, but it was nowhere near as large and important as the entire province of Guangdong. Also, China can't see Lisbon on the map - don't you think the Ming/Qing would know of Portugal's existence if they let them take Macau? Bit ridiculous to be unable to conduct foreign policy with an entity that you know exists but cannot contact.....

Yes, we've been planning to change this for ages. It was agreed upon in both the Far East thread, and the Iberian thread. I'm not sure why it hasn't been changed yet. I'll drop it in the submission thread right now.

 

[doktarr]

Tech is not the only thing affected by ADM, and for china it is obviously not the most important thing (given that China is so rich and big) It also affects conversions chances, and trade success. So saying that China's rulers should have beter stats because China is so big doesn't cut it for me.

I don't have a huge issue with 9/9/9 for Kangxi. I just don't see the justification for 9/9/9 monarch followed by 9/8/8 monarch. No other country in the world has such a progression. And 9/8/8 is better than Napoleon and as good as Suleyman the Magnificent.

Although depending on what you're doing, you may prefer Nappy's 6/9/9 to 9/8/8.

Anyway, looking over the posts I didn't see any suggestions for full stat-lines for anyone except Kangxi (Yongle is the 1419 monarch). I don't see any reason the others need phenomenal DIP ratings as these guys didn't do anything like broker new trading regimes in East Asia. The best foreign policy of the period (other than foreign conquest) was probably the treaties with Russia, which strike me more as diplomatic recognition of the military "facts on the ground" than great victories of diplomatic skill.

In fact, from my ignorant Western perspective, Yongle's diplomatic policy seems more impressive than that of any of the Manchu monarchs. I suggest the following stat lines for the three monarchs:

Kangxi 8/9/9
Yangzheng 7/8/7
Qianlong 6/7/7

Those are awfully darn good stats. As a purely practical note, I'd add that Yangzheng's stats are far less significant that the other two, as he only reigns for 13 years, while the other two reign for 61 years each (wow).

 

[ptan54]

Yongle didnt do much in terms of treaties with the west - just sent out merchants and had the "barbarians" send gifts to the Middle Kingdom.

Kangxi however brokered a deal with a Western Power - that should give him the edge over Yongle.