AGC & EEP: Far East

[unmerged(2456)]

That seems similar to my argument. There is some differance, but essentially its the same.

Except i wouldn't call the Budhism more pure in SEA, just influenced by different factors. As i said imo Confusicanism should be renamed Ch'an/Zen Budhism and Buddhism to Theravada or Theravada Buddhism..

Yes Confsucianism is quite important but essentially unless you want it as just a state religion as Neo-Confuscian (which then would have higher negative to missionaries) it shouldn't be represented IMO as its a philosophy. A pervasive philosophy yes, but no more than secularism is today in the US.

 

[Yakman]

Except i wouldn't call the Budhism more pure in SEA, just influenced by different factors. As i said imo Confusicanism should be renamed Ch'an/Zen Budhism and Buddhism to Theravada or Theravada Buddhism..

Yes Confsucianism is quite important but essentially unless you want it as just a state religion as Neo-Confuscian (which then would have higher negative to missionaries) it shouldn't be represented IMO as its a philosophy. A pervasive philosophy yes, but no more than secularism is today in the US.

Why are you insisting on changing Confucianism to Zen Buddhism? What is the logic behind this? That school of thought was never predominant in China or Korea.

Additionally, Confucianism, as I mentioned before, was often overtly hostile to Buddhism in its different forms. There was huge controversy when the Qing Monarchs built a temple complex in Beijing to honor the Mongol Buddhists. The Ming Temples have nary a Buddha in them...

I think you are trying to force something [Buddhism] on China/Korea where there really isn't any justification for a change.

Additionally, changing "Buddhism" to "Theravada Buddhism" would be historically inaccurate, as Tibet and Mongolia [as are Chinese/Korean/Japanese Buddhists] are Mahayana regions.

And what would be wrong with limiting missionaries to the Confucian states? In this period they did not expand culturally, and all were known for their isolationism and outright xenophobia. It also is historically inaccurate for the one state that DID increase its boundaries, China. The Chinese were content to allow local regions to continue in the same manner culturally. Giving them missionaries would mean lots of conversions, which is NOT historic.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Why are you insisting on changing Confucianism to Zen Buddhism? What is the logic behind this? That school of thought was never predominant in China or Korea.

I could say you're trying to force Confuscianism on Japan just because it is in the GC when it doesn't really go with it much.

Additionally, changing "Buddhism" to "Theravada Buddhism" would be historically inaccurate, as Tibet and Mongolia [as are Chinese/Korean/Japanese Buddhists] are Mahayana regions.

Zen is part of the Mahayana branch as well. There are others, such as Pure Land, but using Mahayana on its own would mean it should also be able to be in parts of India as well.

 

[Yakman]

Nothing really goes with Japan. The Japanese have retained their ancient Shinto [read: pagan] faith and incorporated Buddhist, Taoist, and Confucian elements into that faith. However, Confucianism is dominant philosophy in terms of organization.

Buddhism in India had been exterminated long before 1419. Why are you talking about it?

You could make a case to say that Confucianism might be renamed Mahayana Buddhism and then make Buddhism into Theravada Buddhism. That's a reasonable change [providing Tibet&Mongolia were moved into the Mahayana sphere]. I still wouldn't support it, but its far more logical than claiming that Zen was important enough to be called the dominant faith in China, Japan, or Korea... or Manchu for that matter!

 

[unmerged(2456)]

...Confucianism is dominant philosophy in terms of organization

That may be, but that's not enough to be worthy of incorperation. And as Blitzkrieg is was abused, used when its ideals were good for the various shougnates and discarded when it was a hinderance. It wasn't until after the Tokugowa Shogunate came into power that Confuscianism became anywhere like what you describe.

 

[Yakman]

that's only because there was no unified Japanese nation.

The Tokugawas only centralized and enlarged the traditional daimyo system. That system had always run along confucian lines of discipline, hard-work, and loyalty. Why were merchants held in such low regard by the Shoguns? It was because, like good confucians, daimyo had always held merchants in low regard.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Um, that's stretching is very far there. The daimyo cherry-picked what they took from Confsucainsim, like they did with most other religions, even Buddhism, but they didn't do as much so on the latter. Essentially you get a warped sense of Confsucianism that is merely meant to help reinforce the idea that the daimyo is the master and if it interfers with them, it can be disreguarded with little to no consiquence. That's never the case in China and i suspect Korea. Tokugowa did expand centralization and control to all the daimyo and the rest of the population, but again when they ruled japan, they cherry-picked what and how confuscian ideals were to be used. Yes they were more Confuscianistic after Tokugowa, but not enough imo to really make them Confuscianst state.

Plus as i stated in the new thread i opened, i don't believe confuscianism should be represented as a religion.

 

[Yakman]

That's a good point, but it's similar to what's been debated before. Japan is not easily classified. However, any religious classification system it is placed into should be the same as the Chinese.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

i posted my opinion in the new thread Jinnai set up.

 

[unmerged(31678)]

The event "The Manchu Takeover of China" looks weird. It should have manchu culture after becoming MCH like setup in vanilla. The manchu provinces are always loyal to Qing dynasty. I can not see any reason that it does not deserve manchu culture. So, recommend to modify the event as follows:

#The Manchu Takeover of China#
event = {
id = 10043
trigger = {
event = 10016
}
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10043"
desc = "EVENTHIST10043"
style = 3

date = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 26 month = april year = 1699 }

action_a = {#Long live the Qing Dynasty of the Manchu!#
name = "ACTIONNAME10043A"
command = { type = country which = MCH }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 5 }
command = { type = add_countryculture which = manchu } #Added back
}
}

 

[unmerged(31678)]

A suggestion about Goods in Taiwan. It should be sugar instead of chinaware. It was not civilized enough to produce fancy china. However, Taiwan was famous for sugar production. That is also the reason Japs requested the ownership of Taiwan after China lost the war in 1875.

 

[unmerged(31678)]

A question about diplomatic setup. In that time period, Korea is always the vassal of China. They had very good relationship that China helped Korea to defend Japanese invasion in 1592. Korea also helped Ming dynasty to defend manchu. But it is better to have the same setup as Tibet and Manchu to avoid that China will not diploannex Korea. Change from dynasticalliance to vassalization.

alliance = {
id = { type = 6000 id = 64 }
type = vassalization
startdate = { year = 1700 month = february day = 10 }
expirydate = { year = 1821 month = february day = 10 }
participant = { CHI KOR }
}

 

[unmerged(31678)]

Sorry to pour out a lot of opinions today. I have to say that stats of three monarch in Qing dynasty (both in CHI and MCH) are inaccurate. Those three monarch created the last golden ages in China empire. They deserve much more stats. I think it will not change the balance of game too much.

1. Kangxi (id = 7416 in CHI, id = 8415 in MCH)
He seized the power from the dictatorial assistant in his 15 year old. Then, he conquered the three revolted states leading by Wu San Gui . He also led the army by himself to defeat mongol with long march six times. Most of important of all, he governed to control infamous Yellow River which flooded a lot. He also have very good diplomatic strategy with mongol tribes. He is the one deserving ADM = 9 DIP = 9 MIL = 9 in last two Chinese dynasty.

2. Yangzheng (id = 7417 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
Some said he was a tyrant. But he was rude to officers, but kind to people. He was good at administration, and killed a lot of collapsed officers to keep fisc full. He conducted several reformation to improve productitvity and reduce unfairness. He deserves ADM = 9

3. Qianlong (id = 7418 in CHI, id = 8416 in MCH)
In his era, the several revolters in uighur and tibet were conquered. The society was so rich that it started to collaps after he dead. He deserves ADM = 7 MIL =7.

 

[unmerged(31678)]

After playing, I realized that The Manchu Takeover of China should be added more. Since manchu should have the core on the original territory. Mofidied as follows

#The Manchu Takeover of China#
event = {
id = 10043
trigger = {
event = 10016
}
random = no
country = CHI
name = "EVENTNAME10043"
desc = "EVENTHIST10043"
style = 3

date = { day = 25 month = april year = 1644 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 26 month = april year = 1699 }

action_a = {#Long live the Qing Dynasty of the Manchu!#
name = "ACTIONNAME10043A"
command = { type = country which = MCH }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 5 }
command = { type = add_countryculture which = manchu } #Added back
command = { type = addcore which = 625 }
command = { type = addcore which = 626 }
command = { type = addcore which = 627 }
command = { type = addcore which = 628 }
command = { type = addcore which = 634 }
command = { type = addcore which = 635 }
command = { type = addcore which = 636 }
command = { type = addcore which = 637 }
command = { type = addcore which = 638 }
command = { type = addcore which = 639 }
command = { type = addcore which = 640 }
command = { type = addcore which = 643 }
command = { type = addcore which = 644 }
}
}

 

[Yakman]

this is true. it should be changed.

that is, chinaware in taiwan should be turned to sugar.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

That's a good point, but it's similar to what's been debated before. Japan is not easily classified. However, any religious classification system it is placed into should be the same as the Chinese.

Not really, not unless we do the same for Mongolia. They are also and moreso closer to china except that they much moreso embraced Mahayana Buddhism...same thing as japan. Its location should not be used for consideration here either because by the time they become Buddhist, SEA nations if played by humans should have as good a chance as taking mongolia as they would have taking buddhist japan. And the ai would have about the same chance of taking japan as mongolia. Maybe a bit less, but not much.

So while culturally in many respects they were similar to China, the fact they embraced Buddhism, their fedual society and the more older traditions relating to the polynesian/oceanic influences and the different enough. As i said though Japan in theory for this time should be just as hard for China to hold as Burma or Protugal, but that can't be done easily except by giving them pagan religion which isn't apporpiate really (although it does have a small margin of basis) and this causes other more far reaching problems. So given the choice, if we don't change the religion of Confuscianism to something like Mahayana Buddhism i don't see any reason to start it as such although as i said under Tokugowa and maybe some other clans you might get Confuscianism as the state religion, but its not guarateed and i'm hestiant to say it may not even be likely.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

this is true. it should be changed.

that is, chinaware in taiwan should be turned to sugar.

No it shouldn't. Really sugar should be removed from all provinces not connected to the new world (americas) in a way that was part of the slavery as sugar is one of the 4 province goods that increase the tax value based on the number and value of the slave provinces owned.

 

[Yakman]

I disagree with you on the Mongols. It is important that they resist China, and the best way to do this is to make them Buddhist. I personally don't think they should be in the game, but that's just me.

I agree with you on the sugar. That's good reasoning. But what do you do with the cotton of india?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Remove it. It as well does not have historic presidence for being there at the start of the game at the start because the americas aren't discovered.

I guess this could also be applied to having no coffee in Americas as well, but its not as big a deal there so long as they aren't in provinces owned by natives.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

event = {
	id = 242004
	random = no
	country = NIP 
	trigger = { OR = {
				discovered = 684
				discovered = 685
				discovered = 686
				discovered = 687
				discovered = 688
				}
			}
	name = "Firearm production come to Japan"
	desc = "With the arrival of Portugese merchants, in 1541 Firearms were first introduced into Japan. Shortly thereafter a merchant from the port city of Sakai learned how to make them somewhere in the region of Kyushu. From this point on, Firearms became standard issue in combat in Japan"
	style = 1 
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1541 }
	offset = 30
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1546 } 
	offset = 10 
	action_a = { 
		name = "Ok"
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 }
		command = { type = land value = 1000 }
		command = { type = gainmanufactory which = weapons value = 687 }
		command = { type = art which = 687 value = 10 }
	}
}

Another event i've done. I'm posting it now because there is a slight problem Sakai is represented by water. Yes Sakai inhabits a small island between Kantou and Shigoku. It is right smack dab in the middle of the small area represented by water there so it could go to either province, but i put it with the later for now. Does that seem okay?