AGC & EEP: Far East

[unmerged(2456)]

No i think the confusican ideals should be dealt with outside of the religious spectrum unless you want to use Zen Budhism, otherwise simply make Confusicanism into Pure Land Budhism and find other ways to incroperate Confuscian philosophy into the lives of the people.

Although i think Zen Budhism is best still as Zen is a combination of Confusican, traditional Budism, local Far East cultural tradtions.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

there is no way confucian ideals can be dealt with outside the religious spectrum.

the word confucianism cannot be omitted from mentioning for the state religion/belief/philosophy of China, if renaming is the issue.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well Confusianism isn't appropriate for anyplace outside China though, atleast on its own. Yes China is the big man on the block, but that doesn't mean it should be the end-all for descion.

Confuscianism - Budhism or some variation while maybe closer to the real thing has problems.

It ignores the roles of tradtional religious practices which weren't incorperated in the same way as Christianity melded them into their own or Islam did likewise. Thee was some obviously for Budhism which is one reason it became so widespread, but not really confusicianism.

There is still the need to rename Budhism then IMO

Confusicanism - Budhism sounds corny imo especially considering Ch'n Budhism would be fine as well and is basically the same thing. It is the precursor to Zen Budhism, but with more emphasis on chinese confuscian ideals as well and not as much influence from japanese culture, but would be close enough to use there as well.

I understand you wanting to make it clear that Confusicanism is important to China espeically in the lives of population, but Budhism is equally so.

But its not just the renaming as it clarfiers other things and allows for atleast somewhat better implimentation of the religious system there. It may be just a title, but titles have importance attached to them else, as you yourself just proved you'd not care whether it had Confusicanism or not.

 

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Err, Confucianism is important for China and Korea, especially Korea during that time. I remember reading Korean history (from library, in English) that Confucianism is even bigger in Korea than in China.

http://www.csupomona.edu/~plin/ews430/confu7.html

 

[Yakman]

Well Confusianism isn't appropriate for anyplace outside China though, atleast on its own. Yes China is the big man on the block, but that doesn't mean it should be the end-all for descion.

Confuscianism - Budhism or some variation while maybe closer to the real thing has problems.

It ignores the roles of tradtional religious practices which weren't incorperated in the same way as Christianity melded them into their own or Islam did likewise. Thee was some obviously for Budhism which is one reason it became so widespread, but not really confusicianism.

There is still the need to rename Budhism then IMO

Confusicanism - Budhism sounds corny imo especially considering Ch'n Budhism would be fine as well and is basically the same thing. It is the precursor to Zen Budhism, but with more emphasis on chinese confuscian ideals as well and not as much influence from japanese culture, but would be close enough to use there as well.

I understand you wanting to make it clear that Confusicanism is important to China espeically in the lives of population, but Budhism is equally so.

But its not just the renaming as it clarfiers other things and allows for atleast somewhat better implimentation of the religious system there. It may be just a title, but titles have importance attached to them else, as you yourself just proved you'd not care whether it had Confusicanism or not.

Confucianism is a hundred times more important in China than Buddhism. In a sense, Confucianism is part of being Chinese. Eliminating Confucianism removes the separation between China, Korea, and Japan from the SE Asian states, where Confucianism never took hold.

I can see some reason for removing Confucianism from Japan--there were never state examinations or a whole lot of Confucians running around there, but nontheless, Confucian thought runs through all of Japanese culture. The strict obedience to superiors, the Emperor and ancestor worship, the reverence of the family are all Confucian traits in Japanese culture. In Japan, society was run with Confucian methods, even if people weren't actively Confucian.

China and Korea on the other hand were actively Confucian and non-Buddhist states. Buddhists were present, in their great monasteries, but they were not even close to being as influential or pre-dominant as Confucians. The Civil service of China and Korea took exams on Confucian texts to prove their worthiness to the state. Emperor worship was universally practiced. This is distinct from SE Asia and Tibet.

Buddhism in China is more a superstitious belief than anything else. It is co-equal to Taoism and a general primeval folk worship, and all three of those things are interchangeable and interlocking into a single primitive faith held by the vast majority of Han Chinese. But that's far different from Confucian values, which maintain reverence as important, but filial piety as equally important... if not more so.

 

[Yakman]

No i think the confusican ideals should be dealt with outside of the religious spectrum unless you want to use Zen Budhism, otherwise simply make Confusicanism into Pure Land Budhism and find other ways to incroperate Confuscian philosophy into the lives of the people.

Although i think Zen Budhism is best still as Zen is a combination of Confusican, traditional Budism, local Far East cultural tradtions.

There is no Pure Land Buddhism in China. That's a distinctly Japanese doctrine [or at least it came to prominence in Japan].

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Confucianism is a hundred times more important in China than Buddhism. In a sense, Confucianism is part of being Chinese. Eliminating Confucianism removes the separation between China, Korea, and Japan from the SE Asian states, where Confucianism never took hold.

I can see some reason for removing Confucianism from Japan--there were never state examinations or a whole lot of Confucians running around there, but nontheless, Confucian thought runs through all of Japanese culture. The strict obedience to superiors, the Emperor and ancestor worship, the reverence of the family are all Confucian traits in Japanese culture. In Japan, society was run with Confucian methods, even if people weren't actively Confucian.

China and Korea on the other hand were actively Confucian and non-Buddhist states. Buddhists were present, in their great monasteries, but they were not even close to being as influential or pre-dominant as Confucians. The Civil service of China and Korea took exams on Confucian texts to prove their worthiness to the state. Emperor worship was universally practiced. This is distinct from SE Asia and Tibet.

Buddhism in China is more a superstitious belief than anything else. It is co-equal to Taoism and a general primeval folk worship, and all three of those things are interchangeable and interlocking into a single primitive faith held by the vast majority of Han Chinese. But that's far different from Confucian values, which maintain reverence as important, but filial piety as equally important... if not more so.

I in no way meant to play down the imporatance of Confuscianism, but Budhism is far more imporant in development of China since it was united than you say. Taoism never really became as prominant as you say and it is why Budhism was able to reach as far and wide as it did and why Islam was not.

It is in fact Budhism that helped cement almost all of what you say is Confuscianism. Not directly, but by adapting it to fit with the spirtual aspects people need to have and Confusicanism didn't addressm as well as even to the fact that the devine right of the Empeor became a budhist idea.

In Japan, what you say is correct, but most of that came later. The obediance to the emperor and anscestor worship predates Confuscious in Japan by centuries. Shintoism can be traced back to the time Christ was born and its even older in China.

Korea i know little of, but I can't see it being so uninfluencal as you say.

Its true the tangiable results for Budhism are harder to place, but don't say that doesn't mean its insignifigant. I mean its like saying Christianity has only a small impact on the United States because you don't have Christian ideal and beliefs taught in school, that materialism and secularism is very present, etc. Just because you might not see the results everywhere you walk, the beliefs brought are ingrained into the cultures structure in ways that seem as though they should naturally go there reguardless. The same is true for Budhism in China (and i highly suspect Korea) as Confuscian ideals are for Japan.

There is no Pure Land Buddhism in China. That's a distinctly Japanese doctrine [or at least it came to prominence in Japan].

That i can say with certainy is false, atleast to the extent it originated in Japan. None of the Budhist idelogies, except the variation that changed Ch'n to Zen, came from Japan until modern history. And the only semi-prominant one at that is White Lotus Budhism.

 

[Yakman]

Buddhism and Confucianism have never gotten along. The Buddhism emphasis on asceticism and ignoring the world is in direct contradiction to Konfucian edicts promoting filial piety. Moreover, Buddhism in China is intermingled with Taoism and Folk Religion, giving it a distinct flavor, completely unlike the faith of SE Asia or Tibet.

http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/jeong-gihwa/

http://www.iun.edu/~hisdcl/h425/zhangcheng.htm

http://www.international-zen-temple.de/gkb-eng.html

"The corruption of the temples and abuses of the monks were reflected in the earthy satire of village mask dance dramas, as well as in lofty essays such as "Anti-Buddhism" by Confucianist Chong To-jon, which declared: "The Indian religion is one which destroys morality and harms the country.""
http://www.bergen.org/AAST/projects/Korea/religion/buddhism.html

The Tang scholar Han Yu says it best:

Han Yu’s Memorial to Buddhism, which he composed in protest over the Emperor's devotion to a relic of the Buddha's finger bone, reveals why so many Chinese ultimately found Buddhism unacceptable.

"Your servant submits that Buddhism is but one of the practices of barbarians which has filtered into China since the Later Han. In ancient times there was no such thing.... In those times the empire was at peace, and the people, contented and happy, lived out their full complement of years.... The Buddhist doctrine had still not reached China, so this could not have been the result of serving the Buddha.

The Buddhist doctrine first appeared in the time of the Emperor Ming of the Han dynasty, and the Emperor Ming was a scant eighteen years on the throne. Afterwards followed a succession of disorders and revolutions, when dynasties did not long endure. From the time of the dynasties Song, Qi, Liang, Chen, and Wei, as they grew more zealous in the service of the Buddha, the reigns of kings became shorter. There was only the Emperor Wu of the Liang who was on the throne for forty-eight years. First and last, he thrice abandoned the world and dedicated himself to the service of the Buddha. He refused to use animals in the sacrifices in his own ancestral temple. His single meal a day was limited to fruits and vegetables. In the end he was driven out and died of hunger. His dynasty likewise came to an untimely end. In serving the Buddha he was seeking good fortune, but the disaster that overtook him was only the greater. Viewed in the light of this, it is obvious that the Buddha is not worth serving.

When Gaozu first succeeded to the throne of the Sui [dynasty 581-618], he planned to do away with Buddhism, but his ministers and advisors were short-sighted men incapable of any real understanding of the Way of the Former Kings, or of what is fitting for past and present; they were unable to apply the Emperor’s ideas so as to remedy this evil, and the matter subsequently came to naught – many the times your servant has regretted it. I venture to consider that Your imperial Majesty, shrewd and wise in peace and war, with divine wisdom and heroic courage, is without an equal through the centuries. When first you came to the throne, you would not permit laymen to become monks or nuns or Daoist priests, nor would you allow the founding of temples or cloisters. It constantly struck me that the intention of Gaozu was to be fulfilled by Your Majesty. Now even though it has not been possible to put it into effect immediately, it is surely nor right to remove all restrictions and turn around and actively encourage them.

Now I hear that by Your Majesty’s command a troupe of monks went to Fengxiang to get the Buddha-bone, and that you viewed it from a tower as it was carried into the Imperial Palace; also that you have ordered that it be received and honored in all the temples in turn. Although your servant is stupid, he cannot help knowing that Your Majesty is not misled by this Buddha, and that you do not perform these devotions to pray for good luck. But just because the harvest has been good and the people are happy, you are complying with the general desire by putting on For the citizens of the capital this extraordinary spectacle which is nothing more than a sort of theatrical amusement. How could a sublime intelligence like yours consent to believe in this sort of thing?

But the people are stupid and ignorant; they are easily deceived and with difficulty enlightened. If they see Your Majesty behaving in this fashion, they are going to think you serve the Buddha in all sincerity. All will say, "The Emperor is wisest of all, and yet he is a sincere believer. What are we common people that we still should grudge our lives?" Burning heads and searing fingers by the tens and hundreds, throwing away their clothes and scattering their money, from morning to night emulating one another and fearing only to be last, old and young rush about, abandoning their work and place; and if restrictions are not immediately imposed, they will increasingly make the rounds of temples and some will inevitably cut off their arms and slice their flesh in the way of offerings. Thus to violate decency and draw the ridicule of the whole world is no light matter.

Now the Buddha was of barbarian origin. His language differed from Chinese speech; his clothes were of a different cut; his mouth did not pronounce the prescribed words of the Former Kings, his body was not clad in the garments prescribed by the Former Kings. He did not recognize the relationship between prince and subject, nor the sentiments of father and son. Let us suppose him to be living today, and that he come to court at the capital as an emissary of his country. Your Majesty would receive him courteously. But only one interview in the audience chamber, one banquet in his honor, one gift of clothing, and he would be escorted under guard to the border that he might not mislead the masses.

How much the less, now that he has long been dead, is it fitting that his decayed and rotten bone, his ill-omened and filthy remains, should be allowed to enter in the forbidden precincts of the Palace? Confucius said, `Respect ghosts and spirits, bur keep away from them.’ The feudal lords of ancient times, when they went to pay a visit of condolence in their states, made it their practice to have exorcists go before with rush-brooms and peachwood branches to dispel unlucky influences. Only after such precautions did they make their visit of condolence. Now without reason you have taken up an unclean thing and examined it in person when no exorcist had gone before, when neither rush-broom nor peachwood branch had been employed. But your ministers did not speak of the wrong nor did the censors call attention to the impropriety; I am in truth ashamed of them. I pray that Your Majesty will turn this bone over to the officials that it may be cast into water or fire, cutting off for all time the root and so dispelling the suspicions of the empire and preventing the befuddlement of later generations. Thereby men may know in what manner a great sage aces who a million times surpasses ordinary men. Could this be anything but ground for prosperity? Could it be anything but a cause for rejoicing.

If the Buddha has supernatural power and can wreak harm and evil, may any blame or retribution fittingly fall on my person. Heaven be my witness: I will not regret it. Unbearably disturbed and with the utmost sincerity I respectfully present my petition that these things may be known.

Your servant is truly alarmed, truly afraid."
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/hanyu.html

 

[doktarr]

doktarr: you better make the 1436 event consistent with the 1525 event. so +1 merc for choice a and -1 merc for choice b. fix that and then get those events straight in.

I mentioned this to you in passing at some point as a viable compromise to our mercantilism/free trade debate. The idea here is that vigorous naval activity in general encourages free and independent trade, but the treasure fleet in particular was a state-controlled, mercantilistic activity. So the events (that change the status quo) that support the treasure fleet will raise mercantilism, while events (that change the status quo) that encourage more general naval activity will lower it. And the opposite for changing things the opposite way.

I agree that it looks a bit strange, but there is some logic behind it.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Well Confusianism isn't appropriate for anyplace outside China though, atleast on its own. Yes China is the big man on the block, but that doesn't mean it should be the end-all for descion.

as has been pointed out, confucianism is also important in Korea, not to mention Vietnam. it's really only japan that has problems with it.

I understand you wanting to make it clear that Confusicanism is important to China espeically in the lives of population, but Budhism is equally so.

as has been pointed out, Confucianism is more important than Buddhism in China and Korea.

Its true the tangiable results for Budhism are harder to place, but don't say that doesn't mean its insignifigant. I mean its like saying Christianity has only a small impact on the United States because you don't have Christian ideal and beliefs taught in school, that materialism and secularism is very present, etc. Just because you might not see the results everywhere you walk, the beliefs brought are ingrained into the cultures structure in ways that seem as though they should naturally go there reguardless. The same is true for Budhism in China (and i highly suspect Korea) as Confuscian ideals are for Japan.

here you seem to indicate confucian and buddhism has the same importance for Japan. If that is the case, that is an even stronger argument that confucianism cannot be omitted, because in China, Korea and Vietnam Confucianism is more important than Buddhism. nobody is claiming that buddhism is unimportant, but its importance was definitely not as strong as Christianity was in Europe back then, which would've about the same importance as Confucianism in China, Korea, etc. Christianity is not very tangible just as Confucianism is not very tangible, everyone is supposed to be atheists and man and women and children are supposed to be equal under communism. but if Christianity and Confucianism is intangible, Buddhism is even more intangible in China, Korea, etc.

I in no way meant to play down the imporatance of Confuscianism, but Budhism is far more imporant in development of China since it was united than you say. Taoism never really became as prominant as you say and it is why Budhism was able to reach as far and wide as it did and why Islam was not.

Taoism has an equal, if not greater influence than Buddhism in China, and probably Korea and Vietnam. Not only because it is strongly influential in that it integrated many streams of everyday life beliefs that might not have originated from Taoism, eg 5 elements, yin yang, fung sui, medical philosophy, martial arts, visual arts, fortune telling, etc, are examples, it has also been borrowed from to solidify the foundations of Confucianism during the transition to neo-confucianism, and taoist ideas like the interaction of 5 elements were important in justifying the imperial rule.

"Confucianism - Buddhism" is not meant to suggest any particular kind of buddhism. that is why both are nouns and they are separated by hyphon. that term is just meant to suggest both religions exist to whatever extent or intermingling. i understand that no single term would be perfect. in that sense i would better stick with Confucianism for all nations and provinces resulting in a not very correct label for Japan rather than doing any change which would be worse.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

I mentioned this to you in passing at some point as a viable compromise to our mercantilism/free trade debate. The idea here is that vigorous naval activity in general encourages free and independent trade, but the treasure fleet in particular was a state-controlled, mercantilistic activity. So the events (that change the status quo) that support the treasure fleet will raise mercantilism, while events (that change the status quo) that encourage more general naval activity will lower it. And the opposite for changing things the opposite way.

I agree that it looks a bit strange, but there is some logic behind it.

but 1436 and 1525 is more related to general navy activity (arguably) while 1430 and 1424 is the treasure fleet. whichever way you do it each of the 2 should be consistent, not 3 consistent and 1 different.

 

[doktarr]

but 1436 and 1525 is more related to general navy activity (arguably) while 1430 and 1424 is the treasure fleet. whichever way you do it each of the 2 should be consistent, not 3 consistent and 1 different.

Ah, OK. Point well taken. I've switched the effects in 1436. I think the event chain is now set, pending changes to initial Chinese tech levels.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Ah, OK. Point well taken. I've switched the effects in 1436. I think the event chain is now set, pending changes to initial Chinese tech levels.

yep, i think it's now set.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

here you seem to indicate confucian and buddhism has the same importance for Japan. If that is the case, that is an even stronger argument that confucianism cannot be omitted, because in China, Korea and Vietnam Confucianism is more important than Buddhism. nobody is claiming that buddhism is unimportant, but its importance was definitely not as strong as Christianity was in Europe back then, which would've about the same importance as Confucianism in China, Korea, etc. Christianity is not very tangible just as Confucianism is not very tangible, everyone is supposed to be atheists and man and women and children are supposed to be equal under communism. but if Christianity and Confucianism is intangible, Buddhism is even more intangible in China, Korea, etc.

Only after Tokogowa started to impliment reforms did Confuscianism get to propped up in that manner, and even then it isn't the Confuscianism china, korea, vietnam, etc know.

Essentially though I think Japan might be better though starting as Budhism even under state religion because there is no good solution to this, but leaving them as Confuscian is as wide off the mark as making China Budhist. Under Tokogowa it might be possible to move toward Confuscianism.

Anyway at the very least Confuscian should be renamed to Neo-Confuscianism because the way your wanting it used is more in line with that and as well the neo-confuscian ideals have come to enough precidence to replace the original even in china.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

If i do this, which the more i think about it, the more i think i should, Ezochi would change to pagan.

As to the SEA problem, its a problem either way you look at it, either i make it easier for China or the like to rule them or burma or the like to rule them. Both imo would have about the same problem as the Budhism in Japan isn't the same as in SEA and the Confuscian ideals aren't very pronouced nor in the same way as they are in Japan. Thus imo Budhism seems better to start them out as since it seems to more closely resemble the situation and its unlikely SEAsian nation would rule part of Japan as much as China might.

Eventually, just as its possible to get Catholiscism in as state religion of Japan, Confuscianism can (although really Neo-Confuscianism term should be used here. This was the form brought to japan and was practiced enough in China and elsewhere to make the name change worthy), but Neo-Confuscian ideals would be easier to spread because there is a base level of confuscian ideals already, but very low-key about the same as Budhist impact on china at the time.

Which reminds me, Yakman, what you say has much merit, but the point i am making is that people adopted what they wanted from Budhism and didn't want they didn't. Some took more than others, but pieces and such seeped into the soeciety at large, even into precepts of taosim, even if most did not believe in it or even thought it evil.

 

[Yakman]

Which reminds me, Yakman, what you say has much merit, but the point i am making is that people adopted what they wanted from Budhism and didn't want they didn't. Some took more than others, but pieces and such seeped into the soeciety at large, even into precepts of taosim, even if most did not believe in it or even thought it evil.

This is true. But then again, pagan beliefs remained in Europe to the period [witch burnings, Christmas trees], does this mean that the Europeans should be given pagan religion?

Confucian ethics were more important by yards and yards than Buddhist ethics in China, Korea, and Japan. This is especially clear in China and Korea, but the issue is clouded in Japan. This is due to anti-Chinese sentiment in that country. Yet, Japan was ruled with a Confucian model and the ethics of that country are more in line with what you see in China than what you see in say, Thailand. Many samurai were actively anti-buddhist, believing [correctly] that monastic life sapped the military spirit. The Zen philosophy was adopted by the great Samurai philosophers like Tsunetomo Yamamoto and others [I forget their names right now ] in promoting the samurai lifestyle, even while they were condemning Zen monks and Buddhist monasticism!

Even if you were to make Japan a Buddhist country and keep China and Korea Konfucian, this would make for problems. Japan would then be able to expand into SEA, which is rather ahistorical--at least in this time period . In reality, Japan moved into Korea, and even had a chance of conquering that country some 300 years before it actually succeeded in RL.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

This is true. But then again, pagan beliefs remained in Europe to the period [witch burnings, Christmas trees], does this mean that the Europeans should be given pagan religion?

Confucian ethics were more important by yards and yards than Buddhist ethics in China, Korea, and Japan. This is especially clear in China and Korea, but the issue is clouded in Japan. This is due to anti-Chinese sentiment in that country. Yet, Japan was ruled with a Confucian model and the ethics of that country are more in line with what you see in China than what you see in say, Thailand. Many samurai were actively anti-buddhist, believing [correctly] that monastic life sapped the military spirit. The Zen philosophy was adopted by the great Samurai philosophers like Tsunetomo Yamamoto and others [I forget their names right now ] in promoting the samurai lifestyle, even while they were condemning Zen monks and Buddhist monasticism!

Even if you were to make Japan a Buddhist country and keep China and Korea Konfucian, this would make for problems. Japan would then be able to expand into SEA, which is rather ahistorical--at least in this time period . In reality, Japan moved into Korea, and even had a chance of conquering that country some 300 years before it actually succeeded in RL.

What aspects you mention are relatively small in comparison to the way Shintoism and Budhism played in Japan and was mostly for the upper class. This at most gives weight for it as a state religion. Budhist philosphies of moderation and modesty as well as reincarnation blended well with the Shinotism for the japanese people. There is really no signifigant case for Budhism to be province religion in any place except Kyoto and there is as much reason to make it Pagan or Budhist as well (being budhist for the reason i described before and pagan because the court and empeor was suppose to be pure Shintoism (of course that's an unreality, but of all the places in Japan the royal family was tried to the hardest to keep the creep of Confusciansim and Budhism out. But also the Confsucian ideals were also not set up as high as in China or Korea even among the daimyo and shogunate.

After the civil war period, there is more reason to make the state religion confuscianism as well as eventually the province religion through missionary eeffect (no need for events imo). The Tokugowa era was a united, centralised, structured society which spread down to the populace. However, with the revamp of Japan, Tokugowa may not come to power either.

As to Japan conquering SEA that won't be likely because:
1> They have no knowledge to begin with of that area
2> They will have to deal with the civil war period which starts fairly soon in-game.
3> if they go historical path by the time they can likely, they'll be moving to a more NEO-Confuscian state.
4> There is also the possibility of them moving toward a more catholic state.
5> There will also be the possibility to remain Budhist, but Europeans will be arriving.

Eseentially this gives more historical accuracy imo with little risk involved, espially from an overly agrresive china. It also makes it harder for Japan to go on an earl conquest spree in Korea and annex them and not have to worry about having different religion (as well as culture).

 

[unmerged(8215)]

Many daimyo in the civil war era were Buddhists in fact. For example, Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen were not only Buddhists but also Buddhist Priests. They were formerly named Uesugi Terutora and Takeda Harunobu, then renamed when they became priests.
But don't imagine Buddhists we know today. Buddhism of the era was never a pacific religion. While they might not eat meat, they never reluctant to kill. In paticular, Pure Land Buddhists were fierce Jihadists and fought to death. Japanese Buddhism was utterly different from other countries.
After Tokugawa Ieyasu established the shogunate, he integrated Buddhist temples into a massive bureaucracy to support the government. Priests fell into mere administrative clerks, if not corrupted. Exploited people eventually lost faith.
Shintoism was another thing. Shintoism was absorbed into Buddhism before 10th century. When the Imperial court decided to import Buddhism in 7th century (Buddhism was not only a religion but also an entire civilization which consited of science, arts and sorcery), they amalgamated Buddhism and native Shintoism. Throughout EU2 era, Shinto kami were considered as avatars of Buddhism deities. After Meiji Restoration, the Imperial court decided to utilize Shintoism as the national religion, and divided Shintoism from Buddhism. More than half of Buddhist temples were destroyed in 1868.
Konfucianism was absorbed into Shintoism even earlier, perhaps 6th century. Researchers consider ancient Shintoism as a form of pure animism. Ancestor worship rituals were borrowed from Konfucianism. Thus you can say Shintoism is a far descendant of Konfucianism.

So I think it defensible to change Nippon to Buddhism, however, I'm not happy if it was equated with SEA, Tibetan or even other Hinayana Buddhism.

 

[Yakman]

The problem is that Japanese society is more similar to Chinese society than it is to Indo-Chinese society. Japan is part of China's cultural perifphery. While it's isolation saved much of its native spirit and traditions from alien Chinese ideas, the imprint of Chinese culture is indelible.

It also makes more sense for gameplay reasons to make Japan Confucian.

I really don't understand why you are trying to change something that works AND is rather historical. The Japanese situation IS complicated because Shintoism, Buddhism, and Konfucianism are intermixed. However, the government managed its affairs more like the Chinese than the Thai, the people lived more like the Chinese than the Lao, and the values of society are closer to the Chinese than the Khmer.

 

[unmerged(27373)]

Ok, I'll try to make a more detailed post later but not right now, no time.

This debate has been bothering me for a while but I've been too busy to respond. Now my exam is over, I have a bit more time but not enough to write a long post yet.

What is religion. Before we proceed, we need to define what constitute religion. I think the biggest problem we are facing defining whether or not Jpaan, China are buddhist, confucian, shintoism, or even taoism is because what is considered "norm" under Christianity or Islam are not the same. Let me explain.

In European Christian churches, they dominate a person's life. Churches provide lots of aid. If you're a devote Christian, yo're suppose to pay 10% of your income as tithing (maybe this is something new but most of my family are protestant or catholic, with 1 Judaism and they all faithfully tithe). In return, Churches provide aid to people in trouble. Chruches provide shelter for the needy. Church is also a place that provide education. Until renaissance and more scholls were established, if you want to learn, where can you go? Monastary or churches. Heck, the Jesuits even made education one of their mission. Churches can count on a portion of the population to support them instead of their secular rulers until later.

In Islam, the inman, mulah, and mosques also command a lot of influence in population. You pray everyday, you are not allowed to borrow money to buy home (this puzzled me initially so I asked muslim how can they buy homes without borrowing money, it turns out they have ways to get around it, forming a kind of co-op or something where you don't own the house until later, etc.), mosques also can provide education (even now, madras are pumping out a lot of anti-western religious fanatics who knows mostly koran and little else).

Judaism synogogues are also providing a lot of service and interact with the believers a lot.

Now, what is confucianism?

Do confucian believers provide school? Yes
Do confucian believers provide lots of aid to population? No really
Do confucian have a "church"? No really. They gather in somene's house, or some other places and discuss confucian philosophy, etc. but it's quite different than western religion practices.
Can confucian count on a good portion of population to join them in revolt against the head of state? Are you kidding me? Heck no.

Buddhism is more like a religion than confucian. But, then, you have to decide what constitute a religion. In my opinion, Chrisitian and Muslims have religion in their life a lot more than either bhuddism or confucian.

Is Japan influenced by confucian? Absolutely. Is Japan influenced by bhuddism? Absolutely. But, Japan has always been able to absorb other country's culture into their own and create their own distinctive mix. Do you see bhuddism influence in Japan? Sure. What are obon festival? Do you see confucian influence in Japan, sure. But, to be fair, when Chinese confician belief went to Japan, Japan made some modification. compassion as a virtue was replaced by absolutely obedience and loyalty to superior, creating bushido. This fits Japanese culture better. filitial piety, loyalty, love are still there but compassion as a virtue extoled by chinese (and probably Korean) confucian scholar is displaced.

I think a more productive way is to define and agree on what constitute a religion. I made a post earlier that I don't consider confucian a religion because it's different from christianity or muslim in many respects. Confucian is more like feudalism, etc. confucian is a way for society to order and government to function based on rites observation, formality, and practices to keep harmony in the domain/kingdom/society. There is no reason why confucianism can't co-exist with say bhuddism, christian, or muslim. That's my biggest problem with classifying confucianism as religion. In EU2, there's state religion, there's province religion, they cannot co-exist peacefully, you suffer revolts and efficiency problems...

If we have government system (feudalism, representative, confucian) then it's more appropriate. Since we don't and paradox made confucian into a "religion", it causes some mischief which I think shouldn't have.

China was the center of influence in Asia for a long time. Chinese influence spread to Vietnam, Korea, Japan. Each area take Chinese influence and made their own modification. That's why Japan is closer to China than say SE Asia and vice versa. Many culture are like that. For example, many Vietnamese cooking are influenced by Chinese but current Vietnamese cuisin also has a lot of French influence. You can see French influence in Vietnamese cuisine in their bread (French bread sandwich), and others but you can also see a lot more Chinese cuisine influence in Vietnamese cooking. Vietnamese cooking is still unique, you wn't find too many Chinese dishes using fish sauce while fish sauce is used heavily in Vietnam.

In the end, I think it's more productive for us to define what is religion, what is not with EU2 engine's limitation being taken into consideration. Bhuddism morphed, ust like there are many sects in Christianity, starting with orthodox, protestant, catholic, mormon, etc. Protestant further split to presbertarian, baptist, methodist, calvanist, etc. etc.

My vote is replace confucian with a hybrid bhuddism, that differs from the more pure bhuddism practiced in say India or Thailand area. That is probably more appropriate for China, Korea, and Japan.

Confician influence in Japan is fairly wide, but due to warfare, observing confucian rites give way to survival. Whomever is foolish enough to cling to pure confucian will perish as confucian doesn't preach absolute violence, which is necessary during many of Japan's turmutuous periods. Rulers like confucian doctrine because it provide a convenient way for them to rule.