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|AXiN| said:
That probably is a plan, mostly because it'd be kind of weird to have a Germany that elects someone else as its Emperor

Then it might be necessary to give Germany more than two votes to overcome the Hapsburg advantage...

I'm playing a game as Germany right now, and despite my editing country.csv to give Germany two votes, the Imperial crown always goes to Spain unless I remember to bribe all the surviving electors to +200 before the election.
 

billiard

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Even with the "Hapsburg advantage", it gets you little. I formed Germany as Austria (by manually firing the event). Unless I'm at +180 or better with all remaining electors, I'm aced out by, respectively: Brandenburg, Cleves, Bavaria, and now Prussia twice (in spite of Prussia being wholely outside of the Empire, as it has not yet been combined into Brandenburg! - it is even listed as an Elector when checking via the Missionary tab). Also frustrating is that Brandenburg and Cleves were my vassals when elected. The latter has happened to me before 1.37.1, and is always frustrating - the Emperor is, in turn, subject to some German minor.
 

Norrefeldt

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Lord Abaia said:
Then it might be necessary to give Germany more than two votes to overcome the Hapsburg advantage...

I'm playing a game as Germany right now, and despite my editing country.csv to give Germany two votes, the Imperial crown always goes to Spain unless I remember to bribe all the surviving electors to +200 before the election.
Isn't the Habsburg advantage removed in the betas? IIRC you are a Mac user. In any case, if Italy gets two votes, so should Germany. I wish Twoflower would give his opinion on this, but he's infrequent to say the least.
 

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From memory it's been toned town to about +50 or +100, from +200. Seriously, though, if you want to be Emperor, you should be blowing a fair chunk of your treasury bribing all the electors.

If Italy gets two, Germany should probably get three - Ducal Prussia is I think listed as an Elector.

billiard - when you became Germany, you lost the Habsburg advantage - it's tied to being either Spain or Austria.
 

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Lord Abaia said:
Then it might be necessary to give Germany more than two votes to overcome the Hapsburg advantage...

I'm playing a game as Germany right now, and despite my editing country.csv to give Germany two votes, the Imperial crown always goes to Spain unless I remember to bribe all the surviving electors to +200 before the election.

A country can't vote for itself, so giving them more votes hurts them actually as they will use those votes on other countries. Try giving them 100 votes. It basically assures that whoever has the highest relations with them wins.
 

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A country can't vote for itself, so giving them more votes hurts them actually as they will use those votes on other countries. Try giving them 100 votes. It basically assures that whoever has the highest relations with them wins.
´
Wrong

If that would be the case then Austria would never become Emperor if Spain is still existant and no other Elector exists. Actualy when I manage to eliminate all other electors Austria becomes Emperor everytime. You should also know that I have vassalised Spain and have 200 relations so the factor of relations between me as Austrian Elector with one vote and Spain can not be the deciding one and as far as I know the Habsburg Bonus for SPain and Austria is the same.

Edit: I have played today, preparing to finish of those French revolutionary scum when it appears when I got the message that Spain was elected Emperor (actualy the Archduke of Austria and King of Spain were the same person since Spain had made a wise decision some time ago ...) ......

I have also made several tests giving Germany 7 votes and eliminate/inherit via cheated event every elector who was still existant at this point. The results wer very strange while at some elections Germany becomes Emperor there were also cases when Spain was elected. The relations were the same at every election thus again they can not be the deciding factor and as the Habsburg Bonus is (as far as I know) not randomly assigned to Spain and Austria it was also not deciding. You should also note that I saved before the elections and repeated every election several times each with the same result. If Spain was elected in the first try at the first election it was elected everytime I repeated the first election. Same counts for Germany. In my tests. I also recognized that Germany with 7 votes got elected in most of the elections.

Fazit: As long as there is no event command to assign the Emperor title to a country we should increase the elector votes (7 seems reasonable due to the 7 original elecors :) )
 
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billiard

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Germany elects Spaniards!

Germany formed, only France and Spain hold territory within the red outline of the HRE - Germany controls all "electorates". However, when hovering over Germany with the Missionary tab selected, Germany is listed as "part of the Holy Roman Empire", not even as an elector! Spain has been HRE for the past two elections now, one before I diplo annexed Saxony and Brandenburg (the only remaining holdouts) and now one afterwards.

So those nice Hapsburgs in Koln (I moved my capital when given the choice) who control every one of the electorates decide to give the crown to Spain? Oh, but yes, Germany is not an elector - there aren't any left! Spain is currently using the Emperor's right to march troops through Germany in order to fight the Turks.

An aside, based on the prior posts (this has nothing to do with the above, since Germany is not even an elector evidently): What is the rationale within ACGEEP that an elector cannot vote for himself (or herself, if Maria Theresa)? I would think that the more electorates you control, the better your chances of becoming Emperor, but evidently not.
 

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Quick response to a comment given more than 1000times throughout the Ages of Men

Controling the Electors is worth a shit. You have to BE an Elector. Electors can be made via event or via modifiction of the textfiles. At the moment Germany has the standard number of Electors used by Paradox: 0 And since I am pretty sure (due to the test results posted above) that Anyone who is an elector actualy votes (probably additionaly they cast their vote to another one) for himself I vote for increasing the number of Elector votes of Germany to 3 at least.
It would be very good If we would have the actual formula at our disposal. At the moment my theory is that the number of electoral votes you are getting from the Electors is = RELATIONS x ELECTOR NUMBER (defined in the country.csv file)
Example:
Electors still alive: Berg, (1 vote), Bohemia (2 votes),
Nations alive: Spain, Berg, Bohemia
Relations: Spain-Berg 200, Spain-Bohemia 0,
Bohemia-Berg 100
votes/Emperor points the nations get from the electors:
Spain from Berg:200x1=200 or (200+50)x1=250 (if Habsburg Bonus is still added to 200) , Spain from Bohemia:
: (0+50)x2 = 100, Spain from Spain: 200x0 =0 (no need to add Habsburg Bonus ...)
alltogether: 300 (250 if Habsburg Bonus is added to relations wich are already at 200)

Berg from Spain:200x0 = 0, Berg from Bohemia 100x2=200, Berg from Berg 200x1=200
alltogether: 400

Bohemia from Spain: 0x0=0, Bohemia from Berg 100x1=100, Bohemia fom Bohemia 200x2=400
alltogether= 500

And the winner is: Bohemia for it has 500 Emperor points
You should note that Spain-Spain, Bohemia-Bohemia or Berg-Berg relations are locked at 200 (look at the save game text files) although you can mod it.

Addendum: I am NOT SURE wether my theory is right but it could explain my strange test results. Just change the Spain-Bohemia relations to 100 and you would have a draw since: EP from Berg=200 + EP from Bohemia (100+50)x2=300 and together Spain would now have 500 EP :(
We REALY need Johan to tell us the formula ...
 
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billiard

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Thanks for the elucidation of your theory. It certainly explains why Germany doesn't vote for its own monarch as Emperor. What would make sense to me is:

1. Hapsburg electoral votes always vote for themselves first. This would then be the "Hapsburg advantage". Historically, they thought they had primacy, therefore always put forth a candidate.
2. Other electors vote for themselves only if at peace and with Stability greater than 1 (therefore less likely to need to appeal to others for assistance, using their vote as a tool to gain money or other support).
3. For those electors not meeting either criterion 1 or 2 above, then use following formula: Elector votes for a candidate for whom he/she is a vassal (primary), and/or with whom that he/she is allied (secondary), has a royal marriage (tertiary), and highest relations (lastly).

It wouldn't be easy to program, but all are yes/no until you get to relations and that is already programmed. This methodology would serve a few good ends. One, the Hapsburg advantage is defined, and if all the other electors are deadlocked, the Hapsburgs win which is pretty close to history. Second, bribes are only important at the margins, which is pretty accurate historically as well - you could certainly buy one elector, but bribing all of them was too expensive for even the French (who desperately wanted to gain the crown on a few occasions) to attempt.

A few choices are possible within this proposal:
A:make it mandatory that the receiver of the votes is German or Czech culture
B: make it so that if no one gains a majority on the first vote the Hapsburg wins.
C: Keep "voting" (i.e., recalculating using only top vote receivers on initial ballot) until you get a winner. Note that "C" option works even if you also want the "A" option or not. Open for debate.

The other change I'd like to see is an electorate stays an electorate UNLESS controlled by a country whose culture is other than German or Bohemian (Czech). So if you control 4 electorates, guess what - YOU ARE EMPEROR at the next election! That is definitely what would have happened historically, which is a reason why there was so much angst (perfect use of a German word here!) when it appeared that either the Hapsburgs or Wittelsbachs might get more than one elector - they'd have a huge advantage at the next election by directly controlling half of the votes they'd need to win.
 
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It wouldn't be easy to program
That's the point.
It would need another patch to change it but I think it is not very probable that EUII will be patched in the near future.



We as players and modders can not do much about it since the events can not handle such things as assigning EP ("Emperor Points") or even the title of HRE. We could define which nation can assign votes and we can define howw many votes the mentioned nation is able to assign but we can not force it to vote for anyone. Also we can not assign the ability to cast votes to territorys (such as the province Bohemia). At leas we can not assign it on a regulary basis. You could either create a one time event increasing the number of votes a specific nation is able to cast if it controls a specific province or you could creat random events which can happen several times to one and the same player :wacko: increasing the number of votes he can cast. Both options are unacceptable since we could not handle the situation if Bohemia is conquered/reconquered several times and we don't want a player to get the ability to assign 50 votes just out of luck (the event happened 50 times to him).

You should also notice that you can not define who is Habsburg and who is not since it is not assigned to certain monarchs but to nations (Spain and Austria). At the End of the EUII timeframe Spain was Burbon and not Habsburg still it recieves the 50 relation bonus plus even beeing Habsburg would have been worthless IRL if for example the Hohenzollern would have united most of Germany. Thus the Habsburg Bonus should have been supportive by increasing the chance of getting votes at all and not (like it is in EUII at the moment) a bonus or a multiplicator since it can assure that a nation gets the Emperor title even in some very odd cases (Germany formed by Habsburgs voting for the Spanish King as Emperor since Germany has no Habsburg bonus).

If anything I'd vote to "expand the Habsburg Bonus" to Germany wich could perhaps be done (if possible) by giving them 300 relations with themselves if possible. If you will givem as many votes as all the other electors together have then the victory in the elections for germany is assured.
 
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I have just gotten to the point that I just edit the save file when the game decides that I can't win the election when I control all the electors... and by control I am talking about diplo vassals with +200 relations... which I have had on several occassions and still no joy on election.

Historically it could not have gone that way so I edit the file and just shake my fist in the air cursing the gods...
 

billiard

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End of the HRE trigger

Another option - what about the HRE is no more once Germany forms? That would at least prevent foreign troops from marching all over your territory because you ludicrously voted for them as Emperor of your nation. While far from a perfect fix, it would at least prevent the ridiculous results we have currently (to the point that I've abandoned my current game - I at least want to be able to pretend the game can represent an alternately possible reality, whereas the present system makes no sense at all).
 

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Another option - what about the HRE is no more once Germany forms? That would at least prevent foreign troops from marching all over your territory because you ludicrously voted for them as Emperor of your nation. While far from a perfect fix, it would at least prevent the ridiculous results we have currently (to the point that I've abandoned my current game - I at least want to be able to pretend the game can represent an alternately possible reality, whereas the present system makes no sense at all).

Also impossible due to fact that since the latest beta (wich is required for AGCEEP) the HRE territory can not be changed during the game.
Even before only France, the Netherlands and Non-Christian nations owns HRE territory resulted in removing the HRE rules from the occupied province (only as long as the province is owned by France, the Netherlands or a Non-Christian nation)

Concerning the Elections we can not realy create a situation by force in which no more elector exists and the Emperor dies (example Swiss is Emperor) plus I don't realy know what happens if the Emperor dies and no more Elector exists perhaps the Habsburg Bonus of Spain would result in Spain beeing elected even without any Elector left.

The best you can do is edit the savegame everytime Germany has not managed to become Emperor :(
 

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Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:
Also impossible due to fact that since the latest beta (wich is required for AGCEEP) the HRE territory can not be changed during the game.
Well, you couldn't before either. There was a change, when Italy was lost, but that was hardcoded. HRE is now static throughout the game.
 

billiard

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Concerning the Elections we can not realy create a situation by force in which no more elector exists and the Emperor dies (example Swiss is Emperor) plus I don't realy know what happens if the Emperor dies and no more Elector exists perhaps the Habsburg Bonus of Spain would result in Spain beeing elected even without any Elector left.

This explains my prior post, in which Spain was elected Emperor when no "Electors" were left, as Germany had formed and incorporated all German minors. Ugh.
 

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Well, you couldn't before either. There was a change, when Italy was lost, but that was hardcoded
In earlier versions French, and Dutch owned provinces ceased to be a part of the HRE (of course only as long as France or the Netherlands owned the province) the same effect was occuring if non-christian nations conquered provinces within the HRE.