- Apr 3, 2003
I'm not sure about the name of action_d - "The residence of the Emperor shall be capital" - it feels like there's something missing. Our capital, perhaps?
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Yep, "our capital" is better, thank you. Changed that.|AXiN| said:I'm not sure about the name of action_d - "The residence of the Emperor shall be capital" - it feels like there's something missing. Our capital, perhaps?
Hmm, it is supposed to work the other way round - the city that the emperor has resided in (i.e. the capital of the country that has formed Germany) is chosen as centre of the Empire and site of the most important central institutions.|AXiN| said:I don't know, it still sounds kind of forced. Perhaps "Our capital shall remain the Emperor's residence"?
A large ID range for leaders and an even larger one for monarchs would be good. We need to reach a consensus on which leaders to include in the file soon.Norrefeldt said:Sounds good, better not spamming this thread.
What about the difficult question on leaders? I could always start with finding 100 ID's in a row.
No, I was just using a pretty random range since I figured that IDs would need to be changed (to the ID ranges used by the respective countries) anyway. They are going to be in the correct ranges in the thread where I post the events.Is it intentional to use another ID range than the one for GER, 366000? Not that it matters much now when the compiler warns for conflicts.
That should doNorrefeldt said:Available ranges are: for leaders 14100-14199, for monarchs 14200-14399.
The plan is to include at least one way towards unification of Germany in the next release, 1.37, which is supposed to be released on March 1st. Don't count on it, thoughI Killed Kenny said:When will this events be "playable" ?
Therefore even a Germany founded by Austria should neither inherit Bohemia and Hungary nor get these leaders (which already excludes one very good and two good leaders).
Nope. It handles a larger and more successful version of the historical Imperial reform that was restricted to just the Kingdom of Germany .Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:Simply throw the inheritance sequences away would not be logical for there is no reason why a Habsburg Emperor would not get authority over Bohemia. It would even be reasonable if Bohemia is included in the reform sequence (if not already done) because the sequence handles the reformation of the Holy Roman Empire and not only Germany.
Bohemia and Helvetia did not reject Imperial authority at the time of the Imperial reform. Even after their victory in the Swabian war, the Swiss continued to adress Emperor Maximilian as their overlord. The Imperial reform did not include them due to their special legal status - just like it initially did not include the holdings of the electors and the Hapsburg archdukes.Bohemia could be handled by it's reaction event. It would reject Imperial authority and Germany/HRE would gain claims on it and perhaps an event to make the conquest of Bohemia easier. It would also give a reason to take the inheritance event away from a Habsburg HRE.
For what reason would that be necessary?Concerning Hungary there are several options to handle it: 1st struggles within the Habsburg Dynasty
2nd Ferdinand gets Hungary via a dynastic treaty giving Ferdinand the Hungarian Lands + some autonomy which increases gradualy as he is trying to become fully independant.
3rd Hungarians reject Habsburg claims (which are still active) and ally themselve with another European Power (perhaps Poland)
In 1495, an attempt was made at a Reichstag in the city of Worms to give the disintegrating Holy Roman Empirea new structure, commonly referred to as Imperial Reform
The reform mainly produced the following:
the Eternal Land Piece (Ewiger Landfriede), which established the Reich as a single body of law that excluded feuds as a means of politics between its members;
the Reichskammergericht (Imperial Chamber Court), a supreme court for all of the Reich's territory, possibly the reform's most far-reaching impact;
the establishment of six (from 1512 on: ten) Reichskreise (Imperial Circle Estates) for a more uniform administration of the Reich to better execute the Eternal Land Piece and taxing;
a so-called Reichsregiment (Imperial Regiment), intended as a replacement of the clumsy and slow Reichstag, which never managed to gain much importance though.
The Imperial Executive Council was to include the seven Electors (or their representatives) and 13 members appointed by the German princes. A representative of the Emperor would preside.
Bohemia and Helvetia did not reject Imperial authority at the time of the Imperial reform. Even after their victory in the Swabian war, the Swiss continued to adress Emperor Maximilian as their overlord. The Imperial reform did not include them due to their special legal status - just like it initially did not include the holdings of the electors and the Hapsburg archdukes.
For what reason would that be necessary?
1. There wouldn't need to be a dynastic treaty, since the only Hapsburg family member with a claim to the Hungarian and Bohemian thrones was Ferdinand, through his marriage with Anna of Hungary and the treaty between Hapsburgs and Jagellons of 1515.
2. If Ferdinand is elected King of Hungary - in 1526, when his brother is supposed to be Emperor -, he is a fully sovereign ruler and would not need to be granted autonomy or struggle for it
Leaving that aside, there are solid reasons to assume that the Jagellons would never have agreed to the treaty of 1515, that was the base for an undeniable Hapsburg claim on the thrones of Bohemia and Hungary (there were older claims of the Hapsburgs that were however at least to some extent questionable), had they been afraid of the immense power of a Germany united under Hapsburg rule. Therefore it is quite conceivable that in this case, Janos Zapolya would have been uncontested as King of Hungary and that Bohemia would have elected somebody else than Ferdinand - be it one of the Wittelsbach candidates, be it a Jagellon, be it Francois of France (who did make his bid for the Bohemian throne historically), be it one of the national candidates like Leo of Rozmital.
And still, Bohemia and Helvetia were never included in an Imperial circle. Since the reform was all about the establishment of Imperial circles - the other new things, like the Common Penny or the judicial power of the Imperial Chamber Court, were to be enforced by the circles. Therefore an area not included in an Imperial circle was not affected by the Imperial reform.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:There are many sites and books where it is possible to find information about the so called "Reichsreform" It was a reform of the whole Empire although it hat almost no effect in Italy. An important hint is the adjective "Imperial". Germany was no Empire so any reform for Germany would not have gained this adjective but the adjective "royal". In theory it was not restricted to Germany but in fact the Emperor did not have the authority to extend it to Italy. Also you should notice that "Reich" was not Germany but the Holy Roman Empire.
He was an elector in theory, but in fact the electoral privilegues of Bohemia were reduced and its electoral vote hardly ever used since the reign of Vaclav IV until 1708.If it would have been only a reform of Germany ther would not have been seven Electors included in the Imperial Executive Council because Bohemia was not part of the Kingdom of Germany but a part of the HRE and the King of Bohemia was still an Elector of the Empire.
http://www.wasa.uk.net/history/factsheet/HRE/constitution.htmlThe king of Bohemia did not attend the elections after Wenceslas in the 14th c., and in the 17th century was not present for the deliberations, until 7 Sep 1708, when Bohemia was admitted again as a full member of the Electoral college.
Bohemia - the odd one out: took part in the elections but not in any other matters, even though it had an individual vote and a seat in the Reichstag. It fell outside of the competence of the Reichskammergericht, was not under the regime of Imperial vicars and was not brought into Reichskreise. The situation changed with Bohemia's 'readmission' in 1708.
And I was trying to say that Bohemia wouldn't need to reject anything, since the Imperial reform could, at least initially, not extend to Bohemia.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:I never said that Bohemia has rejected Imperial authority in real life but if you want to take the Bohemian inheritance away from the Habsburgs you will have to give a reason and Bohemian resistance against the Emperor due to his reform would be that reason.
Err, can you specify why not? Hungary was never ever part of the Holy Roman Empire, and never ever ruled by Charles V. He was Emperor and King of Spain, and still allowed his brother Ferdinand to be a completely independent King of Hungary.It would be necessary because Charles V. would never have accepted an fully independant Hungary when he has still the power to prevent this (almost sure when he is HRE and King of Spain)
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Bohemia and Hungary had Jagellon, i.e. Polish, kings until 1526 (Bohemia since 1471, Hungary since 1490).It is probably that they were more afraid of the Ottoman Empire so they would have choosen a canditate strong enough to protect them. Obvious choices in this altered timeline where we have a strong HRE are still Habsburg HRE and (if the Hungarians do not want to ally/unite with the Empire) Poland. France would be not in a suitable position to fight the Ottomans mostly because of their geographic position (Holy Roman monster at their border). Now what would you think would be the Empire's reaction if Poland which was very powerfull in this period gained influence over Hungary ? The Emperor would do everything to prevent it and use his old claims over Hungary to gain a CB.
Err, can you specify why not? Hungary was never ever part of the Holy Roman Empire, and never ever ruled by Charles V. He was Emperor and King of Spain, and still allowed his brother Ferdinand to be a completely independent King of Hungary.
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, Bohemia and Hungary had Jagellon, i.e. Polish, kings until 1526 (Bohemia since 1471, Hungary since 1490).
Bohemia did not really have to worry about the Ottomans; so few did the Bohemians care for the Ottoman threat that they did not even contemplate sending their king Louis an army for his campaign against the Ottomans that ended with his death at Mohacs.
It was not all about the Imperial circles. They were one point among others. Show me some information which supports your opinion and I will believe you.And still, Bohemia and Helvetia were never included in an Imperial circle. Since the reform was all about the establishment of Imperial circles - the other new things, like the Common Penny or the judicial power of the Imperial Chamber Court, were to be enforced by the circles. Therefore an area not included in an Imperial circle was not affected by the Imperial reform.
read this carefully it is a part of the Reichsreform and it clearly states that Bohemia was included. Important is the Number SEVEN which makes clear that every Elector is included. Even if Bohemia practicaly did not use the Imperial Executive Council as a tool to limit the Emperor's power it was theorethicaly included and in the this altered timeline we assume that the Emperor's position is strong enought to extend the reforms not only theoreticaly to Bohemia. This reform was clearly a reform of the Empire and not only of Germany the only reason why it has little influence outside of Germany was the Emperor's lack of power and authority.The Imperial Executive Council was to include the seven Electors (or their representatives) and 13 members appointed by the German princes. A representative of the Emperor would preside.
The Imperial Executive Council (Reichsregiment), 1500-1502, 1522-1524
The reforms did not end in 1495. The Reichstag also established the “Common Penny”, a direct, universal property and poll tax, meant to finance the imperial court system and the common defense. Finally, in 1500, Maximilian could no longer resist the pressure to establish a Imperial Executive Council (Reichsregiment), seated in the imperial city of Nürnberg, which was meant to operate continuously as a governing council, on behalf of the Reichstag and with only a minimum of interference from the Emperor.
Charles firmly believed in the statu quo, and the unity of Christendom against the Turks. But he never sougth to enforce his authority upon non-HRE rules. In fact, he opposed France only because of France's aggressivity in Italy.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:1.
The HRE was (in theory) universal and the Emperor claimed supreme authority over christian Europe. Additionaly Charles strongly believed in this medieval ideal of the universal HRE.
There were no submission between the two of them. Hungary has always been outside of the HRE, and it even was a very important point for them, under the Hapsburgs.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:2.
The Ottoman juggernaut would be a reason for Ferdinand to seek protection from his older and more powerfull brother which he would only get in exchange for some kind of submission.
How ? Prove your point, show that reforms were enforced.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:It reached Bohemia.
Like Twoflower says : it was a point, but all others were to be implemented through circles, not separately from them.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:It was not all about the Imperial circles. They were one point among others. Show me some information which supports your opinion and I will believe you.
The HRE was not a part of Charlemagne's Empire it was a different political entity although HRE Emperor's claimed to be heirs Charlemagne. The crucial point is that Charlemagne was crowned as Emperor by the Pope thus claiming supreme authority over christian Europe (again in theory). His hiers continued to do so and Otto II even claimed the Imperii renovatio the recreation of the antique Roman Empire.Don't forget the HRE was a part of Charlemagne's Empire : only lands once owned by him (and not even all) were part of the HRE.
So the Spanish Expansion in South America was his way to keep the status quo ? ... The main reasons why there was little/no expansion of the HRE was it's internal problems not Charles political vision and ideals.But he never sougth to enforce his authority upon non-HRE rules. In fact, he opposed France only because of France's aggressivity in Italy.
For him, it was more important to keep everything the way it was.
There were no submission between the two of them. Hungary has always been outside of the HRE, and it even was a very important point for them, under the Hapsburgs.
already deletedIt reached Bohemia.
Twoflower said:That should do
So is there a possibility for compromise regarding the leader file? Both sides do have a point - on the one hand, it is hard to imagine that none of the famous historical leaders from Germany would have served a unified Germany, but on the other, it is also right in that we should keep Germany at least to some extent balanced and challenging (for example it would imo be quite conceivable that Germany is united in a MP game, where it would be rather far from certain victory), that a leader file that includes all German leaders would be too big and very unrealistic, that we should avoid "province-hunting" for leaders and that we should keep things simple if
1. The first interesting thing about the HAB leaders is that some of them quite obviously served the Hapsburgs because they were Kings of Bohemia (Wallenstein, Lobkowitz and Schwarzenberg) and of Hungary (Bathyany, Nadasy, Alvintzy, Melas). These should certainly not be available to another state founding Germany. Whether we want a Germany founded by Austria to get these leaders depends on whether we want such a Germany to inherit Bohemia and Hungary. Leaving aside arguments on whether that would be realistic or not, I think there is no need to give a united Germany unnecessary freebies. Therefore even a Germany founded by Austria should neither inherit Bohemia and Hungary nor get these leaders (which already excludes one very good and two good leaders).
2. The two Dukes of Lorraine should, at least for the purposes of the German leader file, be considered leaders for LOR, which means that they are out of the HAB leaders for Germany list.
The New World is the New World, Europe is Europe. The search for statu quo was for Europe, christian Europe in fact. His dream was a crusade, and France prevented him by its aggressivity, but Charles/Karl/Carlos only ever sought statu quo between christian princes. Look at the various peace treaties !Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:The HRE was not a part of Charlemagne's Empire it was a different political entity although HRE Emperor's claimed to be heirs Charlemagne. The crucial point is that Charlemagne was crowned as Emperor by the Pope thus claiming supreme authority over christian Europe (again in theory). His hiers continued to do so and Otto II even claimed the Imperii renovatio the recreation of the antique Roman Empire.
HRE = Holy Roman Empire It is in THEORY universal even in 1519
So the Spanish Expansion in South America was his way to keep the status quo ? ... The main reasons why there was little/no expansion of the HRE was it's internal problems not Charles political vision and ideals.
Sure, Ferdinand would have asked, and been granted, support, but not in exchange of submission, as he spoke about the war against the Turks as soon as the Imperial Election.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:Imagine the situation wher Charles is Emperor of HRE and King of Spain and Ferdinand is King of Hungary. The Turks are threatening him and he has to choose how to defend against them. Now how could Ferdinand hold his possessions ? By seeking support. The obvious choice would be his big brother Charles. But I am sure that Charles would demand some kind of submission in exchange for military help. I do not talk about integration of Hungary into HRE but a clear relation between the German-Spanish and the Hungarian branch of the Habsburg Dynasty which means German-Spanish line dominates Hungarian line.
A reform may be general, and named general, but only affect some significant parts of the territory. It was very common in all non-homogenous countries, and still is. Those are words, only words, and you should focus on facts.Ar-Pharazôn[GE] said:Still this leaves the adjective "Imperial" which is clearly indicating that the reform is a reform of the Structure of the Empire and the fact the the Imperial Executive Council ("Reichsregiment") was also a part of the Reichsreform. + One of the Imperial Circles was the Circle of Burgundy which is a seperate Kingdom and just like Bohemia no part of the Kingdom of Germany (HRE = Kingdom of Germany + Kingdom of Italy + Kingdom of Burgundy + Kingdom of Bohemia which had a special status within the Empire)