AGC & EEP: Denmark

[Lasse Nielsen]

The union between Denmark and Norway was a quite happy one, but had only been in excistence for some 40 years.

Quote:
As far as i know Norway never really wanted to be independent (except a few years, that could be simulated by increased revolt risk in some provs, and a few revolts), and though they had their own duke or count e.g. monarch, some years, they were ruled by us (the danes). What troubles are you excactly talking about? My knowledge about Denmark aren't perfect.

End Quote:

Magrete of Denmark was elected as regent of Norway and her heirs (counting from her sisterdaughters son) should rule Norway as a hereditary kingdom. Her sisterdaughter son was Erik of Pommerania (the king you start out with as Denmark) and he was overthrown and Christoffer of Bavaria was choosen as king in Denmark (1440), Sweden (1441), and last Norway (1442). The norwegians hesitated because they saw Erik as their rightfull king. This is why I don't think that Norway and Denmark should be one kingdom from the beginning, but rather form as it does now.

After this the union between Denmark and Norway was as stable as it could have been, and the distinction between norwegian and danish faded (atleast what the nobility and burgher is concerned).

 

[Sikker]

So basically Norway should START as part of Denmark but with the death of Erik VII (I know, not actual DEATH, but actual start of pirating career ... but for game purposes ...) Norway should be released as vassal with 200 relations?
Would that be an acceptable solution to you Lasse - or you Ryan?

 

[Lasse Nielsen]

Personally I prefer it as it is now. If it should be changed as you propose there should be a new event that fired in 1442 annexing it all over again...

 

[USViking]

Issues:
Sund Due
German Culture
Keeping Norway
Colonisation
Strength

Sund Due
I've been making some events for Denmark myself, and i've made two options:

A:which gives fortress in Copenhagen +1, and a lot of extra tax value in Copenhagen

B:Which gives a CoT in Copenhagen, tax value in copenhage -2 (people would buy a lot of stuff from other countries, and this would give less income to the state from taxes.), treasury -100 (establishing a CoT ain't cheap, you can't expect people to just start trading at the street, at least you need some kind of market.)

German Culture
I describe this in the bottom of my post.

Keeping Norway
By weakening sweden this really shouldn't be a problem
Colonisation
Denmark was a minor player in the colonial race and held three colonial territories.

Colonisation
I think giving Denmark trade posts and colonies would be stupid, at most we had some contacts with the people living in Greenland.

Strength

giving Denmark a better Sund Due event would definitely give Denmark some much needed power, and weakening Sweden would also be more realistic, Sweden should get it's power from a lot of über leaders later in the game.

Minor issues:

Should Sjælland produce grain or fish? This question really doesn't bother me, the important question is, should the provinces on Greenland produce ivory?? historically they had teeth from the hvalros (don't know what it's called in english)

Does anyone want to parse my events? nope, we don't

Denmark should start with Norway, we've had norway though most of the history, and for many centuries Norwegian didn't even think about being independent.


Kalmar Union
This is the most important part of my post, i think Denmark and Sweden should be able to recreate the Kalmar union, if one of the two gets to control most of Sweden, Norway, Most of Denmark, and perhaps Mecklemburg. It should trigger an event to become the Kalmar Union, giving some huge trade bonuses, becoming more Mercantalistic, Giving more cores, and most important of all: New cultures.

Your written English is fluent.

Hope you won't mind if I tell you "hvalros"
must be "walrus" in English.

 

[henrikhka]

How detailed do you guys think the Count's Feud should be made? Should we just have one event for the only civil war in Danish history? Should we have one for the beginning and one at the end? Or should we perhaps let the player have his own civil wars and rebellions?

 

[unmerged(10262)]

Well, according to other sources the Norwegians were treated pretty much as well as the Danes .. and certainly better than they were during the Swedish occupation where Norway in effect were reduced to a colony (a place to be exploited by the masters)

umm well no, do you have ANY facts to back this up?

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Question about danish events

Event DAN 3847 gives Denmark cores on norway when Norway declares independance (including cores on both greenland provinces), however event DAN 5848 makes Denmark inherit Norway and gives Denmark cores - but not on greenlands provinces. Is there a reason for this, or should the last two lines of event 3847 be also in event 5848?

command = { type = addcore which = 1537 } #Vestbygden
command = { type = addcore which = 1538 } #Eiriksfjord

Edit: Or should better those two lines be deleted from event 3847 to match event 5848? Because Denmark after 1585 gets event 25101 which lets them reclaim cores on Greenland.

 

[unmerged(1385)]

Is it normal that the island of Gotland has a tax value of 8 ?
I think it is largely overvalued as it is more than Crete, Corsica, Sicilia and Sardinia.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Is it normal that the island of Gotland has a tax value of 8 ?
I think it is largely overvalued as it is more than Crete, Corsica, Sicilia and Sardinia.

The goods is trade which makes it much less valuable than Crete. If the game had started 1319 Gotland could still have been a COT. In 1419 the tax value ought to be high compared to most Swedish provinces, but 200 years later it wasn't important anymore. The wealth came from fertile farmland rather densely populated, fishing and being a trade hub for the Baltic. In conclusion, it could have a lower value, at least for some parts, but it shouldn't be done without balancing Sweden - Denmark setup and max maintenance. At least we could lower it by one in GOT367000, when it was used as a pirate base.

 

[unmerged(1385)]

The goods is trade which makes it much less valuable than Crete. If the game had started 1319 Gotland could still have been a COT. In 1419 the tax value ought to be high compared to most Swedish provinces, but 200 years later it wasn't important anymore. The wealth came from fertile farmland rather densely populated, fishing and being a trade hub for the Baltic. In conclusion, it could have a lower value, at least for some parts, but it shouldn't be done without balancing Sweden - Denmark setup and max maintenance. At least we could lower it by one in GOT367000, when it was used as a pirate base.

OK, I didn't know the importance of Gotland in the Baltic.
Perhaps, the tax value could be lowered by 2 if Denmark owned Gotland with the event 3284 "The Sound Due" which open a CoT in Copenhaguen ?

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Suggested changes in event DAN 3284

#The Sound Due#
event = {
	id = 3284
	random = no
	country = DAN
        [color=yellow]trigger = {
                        control = { province = 307 data = DEN } 
                        owned = { province = 307 data = DEN }
                       }[/color]
	name = "EVENTNAME3284" #The Sound Due
	desc = "EVENTHIST3284"
	#-#The Sound Due was introduced by King Erik in 1429 and was not abolished until 1857. All ships passing through the Sound ('Øresund') were forced to anchor off Helsingør and pay dues to the Danish Crown. The merchants had no choice but to comply since the Sound was the only water lane into the Baltic Sea. The due was enormous, and its impact on politics was almost as big as on the economy - the Danish king could easily decide on different levels of tariffs for the various nationalities of the ships passing through. Swedish merchants were often particularly targeted, which was an important contributing factor to the bitter enmity between the nations.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1429 }
	offset = 180
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1566}

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3284A" #Impose the Sound Due
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = 2 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = 4 }
                command = { type = relation which = SWE value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = MEC value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POM value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = LAT value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = removecot which = 305 } #Mecklenburg
		command = { type = cot which = 307 } #Sjælland
	}

This event allows Denmark to move a COT and gain more taxes in their capital province for collecting the sound due - however even a Denmark who doesn´t control anything or whose capital would have moved due to a revolt would still get this event which wouldn´t make sense anymore. Therefore I suggest to add the conditions to the trigger, that Denmark needs to own and control it´s capital and with it the islands that control the seaway that allows the collection of the dues.

Edit: The whole reason is of course that I never play Denmark and I want to keep the COT at Mecklenburg - and instead of having to annihilate Denmark before that event fires all I have to take care for is that they don´t control that province

Edited: Offset 180, deathdate 1566, option B completely removed

 

[Norrefeldt]

OK, I didn't know the importance of Gotland in the Baltic.
Perhaps, the tax value could be lowered by 2 if Denmark owned Gotland with the event 3284 "The Sound Due" which open a CoT in Copenhaguen ?

The prime time of trade in Visby was already in the past, and I don't think the Sound due did affect it much. The pirate decades under Erik did much more damage, as trade ceased.

#The Sound Due#
event = {
	id = 3284
	random = no
	country = DAN
        [color=yellow]control = { province = 309 data = DEN } 
        owned = { province = 309 data = DEN }][/color]
	name = "EVENTNAME3284" #The Sound Due
	desc = "EVENTHIST3284"
	#-#The Sound Due was introduced by King Erik in 1429 and was not abolished until 1857. All ships passing through the Sound ('Øresund') were forced to anchor off Helsingør and pay dues to the Danish Crown. The merchants had no choice but to comply since the Sound was the only water lane into the Baltic Sea. The due was enormous, and its impact on politics was almost as big as on the economy - the Danish king could easily decide on different levels of tariffs for the various nationalities of the ships passing through. Swedish merchants were often particularly targeted, which was an important contributing factor to the bitter enmity between the nations.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1429 }
	offset = 360
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1429 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3284A" #Impose the Sound Due
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = 2 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -2 value = 4 }
                [color=yellow]command = { type = provincetax which = 308 value = -2 }
                command = { type = relation which = GOT value = -50 }[/color]
		command = { type = relation which = SWE value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = MEC value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POM value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = LAT value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = removecot which = 305 } #Mecklenburg
		command = { type = cot which = 307 } #Sjælland
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3284B" #Let trade flow freely
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -2 }
                [color=yellow]command = { type = trade value = 50 }
                command = { type = merchants value = 1 }[/color]
		command = { type = relation which = SWE value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = MEC value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POM value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = LAT value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 50 }
	}
}

This event allows Denmark to move a COT and gain more taxes in their capital province for collecting the sound due - however even a Denmark who doesn´t control anything or whose capital would have moved due to a revolt would still get this event which wouldn´t make sense anymore. Therefore I suggest to add the conditions to the trigger, that Denmark needs to own and control it´s capital and with it the islands that control the seaway that allows the collection of the dues.

As more taxes and gaining a COT are much more valuable than a difference of 100 in relations with nations that can be bribed up again I suggest also to add something more beneficial to option b. Even claiming Greenland grants +50 to trade (event 25100) so I suggest to add some trade tech and a merchant to the danish who would choose not to impose the sound due and pursue free trade.

And last Aegnors suggestion could be added to reduce Gotlands tax when Denmarks capitals tax rises which should also lower relations to Gotlands should it happen to exist at that time.

Edit: The whole reason is of course that I never play Denmark and I want to keep the COT at Mecklenburg - and instead of having to annihilate Denmark before that event fires all I have to take care for is that they don´t control that province

Only Sjealland (and to a small extent Skåne) is needed to control the Sound. Jylland (309) matters very little. I agree that it's badly balanced, by I think we should remove option B, as no player would EVER take it, and therefore it cripples the AI.

 

[Sute]{h]

I'm not by default against lowering the tax income of Gotland. However currently the three Scandinavian countries have their starting income balanced against each other. We did that when we lowered Norwegian and Swedish base taxes a long time ago. So if we lower the income of Gotland, then we must consider if we need to further lower Swedens income to reflect the balance of power. My suggestion is waiting until the new map is finished. Then we can adjust the income based on the new number of provinces. As it is Denmark is bound to have a few very wealthy provinces.

As to the Sound due event I think it is fair to include in the trigger that Denmark must own Sjælland. If we include a requirement that they must also control Sjælland the offset should be reduced, and the deathdate extended.

As to the CoT in Mecklenburg I would suggest that when the new map arrive, that the Mecklenburg CoT isn't eliminated by the Sound Due. Rather it should be eliminated if the Sjælland CoT exists when the Dutch trade expands (around 1600). Other until the new map we have to eliminate it in order to secure the survival of the Sjælland CoT.

EDIT: Ohh... and by all means remove option B.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I'm not by default against lowering the tax income of Gotland. However currently the three Scandinavian countries have their starting income balanced against each other. We did that when we lowered Norwegian and Swedish base taxes a long time ago. So if we lower the income of Gotland, then we must consider if we need to further lower Swedens income to reflect the balance of power. My suggestion is waiting until the new map is finished. Then we can adjust the income based on the new number of provinces. As it is Denmark is bound to have a few very wealthy provinces.

Where is the balance issue when in the same event one province of Denmarks basetax is raised by 4 while Gotlands lowered by 2? Overall that is still a plus of 2 and so there is no need to consider if Swedens provinces must be lowered.

As to the Sound due event I think it is fair to include in the trigger that Denmark must own Sjælland. If we include a requirement that they must also control Sjælland the offset should be reduced, and the deathdate extended.

offset 180 and deathdate moved from 1429 to 1566 (sound due must be introduced before oxe reorganizes it in event 3294)? If that would allow the majority to agree on the condition that Denmark should not only own but also control the area to be able to control the sound...

As to the CoT in Mecklenburg I would suggest that when the new map arrive, that the Mecklenburg CoT isn't eliminated by the Sound Due. Rather it should be eliminated if the Sjælland CoT exists when the Dutch trade expands (around 1600). Other until the new map we have to eliminate it in order to secure the survival of the Sjælland CoT.
EDIT: Ohh... and by all means remove option B.

Then when playing on the new map I don´t have to annihilate the danish before they destroy Mecklenburg´s cot but the dutch?

 

[unmerged(1385)]

If I haven't forgot a province, this is the tax value for all Baltic provinces :

Sjælland		16
Skåne			15
Jylland			15
Holstein		13
Poznan			10
Svealand		10
Mecklenburg		10
[COLOR=YELLOW]Gotland			8[/COLOR]
Prussia			8
Østlandet		7
Kurland			7
Vorpommern		7
Västergötland		6
Estland			6
Livland			6
Memel			6
Hinterpommern		6
Småland			4
Nyland			4
Ingermanland		3
Finnmark		1
Österbotten		1

So Gotland is over Kurland, Estland, Livland and most of Baltic provinces.
I understand that this tax value (8) represents the trade in Visby, but is it really normal that this province generate more taxes than Estland, Livland or Pommern ?

 

[Sute]{h]

Where is the balance issue when in the same event one province of Denmarks basetax is raised by 4 while Gotlands lowered by 2? Overall that is still a plus of 2 and so there is no need to consider if Swedens provinces must be lowered.

+4 is +4. +4 -2 is +2. Thus it isn't the same. I don't object to lowering Gotlands basetax per say, but I do feel we should keep the scale somewhat intact. This could be done by reducing a Swedish province by 1 to reflect the diminished trade there.

offset 180 and deathdate moved from 1429 to 1566 (sound due must be introduced before oxe reorganizes it in event 3294)? If that would allow the majority to agree on the condition that Denmark should not only own but also control the area to be able to control the sound...

Control over Sjælland isn't essential to collecting the Sound Due. Really what mattered was the Danish fleet, which survived several occupations of Sjælland. An occupation is a temporary thing, the Sound Due was not. Of course collection is somewhat suspended by Helsingør being occupied, but that is already reflected in the engine.

Then when playing on the new map I don´t have to annihilate the danish before they destroy Mecklenburg´s cot but the dutch?

Correct. What finally killed of the Hansa was the increased competition from Dutch traders combined with the Sound Due.

I'm wondering perhaps the Sound Due event should be province specific and require a somewhat naval oriented nation. Any nations possessing Sjælland and having a substantial navy could have initiated the Sound Due.

 

[Sute]{h]

So Gotland is over Kurland, Estland, Livland and most of Baltic provinces.
I understand that this tax value (8) represents the trade in Visby, but is it really normal that this province generate more taxes than Estland, Livland or Pommern ?

Scandinavian provinces have always been somewhat overrated IMHO. The trouble is that Denmark is frequently kicked by some German power anyways. So reducing tax value will further weaken Danish defenses.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Would the modified event - with the exception of the modifications about Gotland - be acceptable?

 

[Norrefeldt]

For the Sound Due I suggest for submission the things we all agreed on:

• ownership and control required
• deathdate 1566
• offset 180
• remove option B

Control over Sjælland isn't essential to collecting the Sound Due. Really what mattered was the Danish fleet, which survived several occupations of Sjælland. An occupation is a temporary thing, the Sound Due was not. Of course collection is somewhat suspended by Helsingør being occupied, but that is already reflected in the engine.

True, but a Danish king in the terrible possition wouldn't dream about introducing the Sound Due until after the war, or at least until he has regained control of Själland.

I still think Gotland is overrated, and should be lowered by 1 in GOT367000, but it can perhaps wait. The high tax value of Gotland makes it very easy to siege, as no army will starve there. I'll keep all this in mind for the new map.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Danish cores in the balticum

With event DAN 3290 (triggered by livonian a choice and danish b choice) or event DAN 3291 (triggered by livonian b choice and either danish a or b choice) or event DAN 3292 (livonian c choice, danish a choice)
Denmark may gain cores on 3 provinces in the eastern baltic:
275, 276, 282 (Ingermanland, Estland, Livland).

These cores *if* Denmark gains them are currently not removed in the danish event file.

Should I have missed an event somewhere that does remove those cores, please tell someone tell me

If there is no removal I suggest to remove those cores with event DAN 40076 (peace of stolbovo) or to add a new event that removes those cores if Denmark does not control them (like the portuguese event for the core removal for Al Kharam).