AGC & EEP: Denmark

[unmerged(16501)]

Admittedly, Denmark is probably too small to varrant a thread in itself.

Never the less I do not feel as if I know enought about Swedish history to mod that thread.

My apporach to development will be pragmatic rather to historic in the sense that means aiming for maximal gameplay enjoyment.

Being a Dane myself, I will be very concious about *not* overpowering Denmark in any way. However, Denmark is an interesting MP option and I do support giving the nation some interesting options.



Issues:

• Sund Due
• German Culture
• Keeping Norway
• Colonisation
• Strength

Sund Due
Should this take the shape of a CoT or a very, very, very high base tax? The last of the two would certainly be the most historical option as Copenhagen was never really a center of trade for anything or anyone outside of Denmark-Norway (and neigther was Svealand for that matter – should we remove that one as well?).

German Culture
I have always been very much opposed to giving Denmark German culture. Lately I have started to revise my viewpoint though. Maybe Denmark should be able to gain German culture, but at a steep price.
I cannot imagine that anyone would disagree that the historical facts allow it as the aristocracy, the political magistrates, and the royal house were all of German origin.
This should mostly be relevant in multiplayer. What I imagine is an event which fires when Denmark owns two or more German provinces. Something like:

The German question
Option A:
Nothing
Option B:
Centralization –4
Land +3
Relation with the Emperor –100
The Emperor gains a CB on Denmark until they are driven out of the HRE
Gain German culture

Keeping Norway
Okay so DK should loose Jämtland, Gotland, and Skåne but keep the rest of Norway. This is a though one.
The best suggestions I can think of is increasing the fortresses in Østlandet, Bergenhus, and Trøndelag while making winter attrition an even bigger bitch up north.
Neither of these are very good though.

Colonisation
Denmark was a minor player in the colonial race and held three colonial territories.

Tranquebar, a regular TP in India. This TP would be in Mandurai but that provinces is almost reserved for the Dutch who had a stronger presence there anyway. I think India is probably too small to model this properly.
A seemingly nameless fort along the Gold Coast which harboured a couple of hundred merchants.
Three Caribbean islands of which only one is in the game, St. Thomas.

Now unfortunately, in multiplayer games there are rarely vacancies in places as lucrative as these left by the time Denmark starts exploring. Therefore Denmark usually ends up colonising Hudson Bay. This might not be as weird as it seems – Jens Munk explored the bay IRL but suffered too high attrition and was forced to turn back.

I am not sure what should be done about the whole colonisation deal so I am just laying it out.

Strength
Although the EEP and PAoE has improved upon this, Denmark generally gets either totally or partly bashed by Sweden when both are AI controlled. Another common sight is Holstein taking Jylland as well.
The Holstein thing is generally due to the ridiculous army sizes of one-state minors. With Sweden, things are more complex. The two largest problems here are:
- The mountains/fjelds of Norway were considered very hard to conquer. As the AI does not have to deal with psychological factors such as these, is generally has an easy time gobbling up Norway.
- Sweden is overpowered. There solution here is not to make Denmark stronger but rather to make Sweden weaker. I am not sure if someone has already done this, but Sweden should be very poor until about the time of the great military innovations. There it should receive an event boosting base taxes across Sweden proper.

Another issue with Danish strength is the navy. Through most of the timeframe Denmark was amongst the top 5 naval powers in Europe sometimes reaching as high as #2. In the game this is rarely expressed because of Denmarks relatively poor economy. Should we add some warship gains to some of the existing naval events?

Minor issues:

Should Sjælland produce grain or fish?

Does anyone want to parse my events?
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127232

Should Denmark have an event reducing BB for inheriting Norway? Afterall, nobody besides Sweden really cared at the time an DK does not really need to get off on the wrong foot.


That is about it for now... What do you think?

 

[Arilou]

I agree on most points, the problem with Norway is mostly an engine problem unfortunately, simulating these mountains would be annoying.

It'd *almost* be worth it to simple close-of the mountains (basically turning norwya into an island by not making it adjacent to Sweden) but it would create lots of weird results.

 

[Twoflower]

The simple solution to prevent the annoying wars between Denmark and Holstein's alliance, caused by the inevitable Danish dow on Holstein and usually resulting in a defeat for Denmark is to give Denmark's inital AI war = 0. They don't need to declare any war in the first years after all.

 

[Arilou]

*nod*

 

[kurtbrian]

Admittedly, Denmark is probably too small to varrant a thread in itself.

Never the less I do not feel as if I know enought about Swedish history to mod that thread.

My apporach to development will be pragmatic rather to historic in the sense that means aiming for maximal gameplay enjoyment.

Being a Dane myself, I will be very concious about *not* overpowering Denmark in any way. However, Denmark is an interesting MP option and I do support giving the nation some interesting options.



Issues:

• Sund Due
• German Culture
• Keeping Norway
• Colonisation
• Strength

Sund Due
Should this take the shape of a CoT or a very, very, very high base tax? The last of the two would certainly be the most historical option as Copenhagen was never really a center of trade for anything or anyone outside of Denmark-Norway (and neigther was Svealand for that matter – should we remove that one as well?).

German Culture
I have always been very much opposed to giving Denmark German culture. Lately I have started to revise my viewpoint though. Maybe Denmark should be able to gain German culture, but at a steep price.
I cannot imagine that anyone would disagree that the historical facts allow it as the aristocracy, the political magistrates, and the royal house were all of German origin.
This should mostly be relevant in multiplayer. What I imagine is an event which fires when Denmark owns two or more German provinces. Something like:

The German question
Option A:
Nothing
Option B:
Centralization –4
Land +3
Relation with the Emperor –100
The Emperor gains a CB on Denmark until they are driven out of the HRE
Gain German culture

Keeping Norway
Okay so DK should loose Jämtland, Gotland, and Skåne but keep the rest of Norway. This is a though one.
The best suggestions I can think of is increasing the fortresses in Østlandet, Bergenhus, and Trøndelag while making winter attrition an even bigger bitch up north.
Neither of these are very good though.

Colonisation
Denmark was a minor player in the colonial race and held three colonial territories.

Tranquebar, a regular TP in India. This TP would be in Mandurai but that provinces is almost reserved for the Dutch who had a stronger presence there anyway. I think India is probably too small to model this properly.
A seemingly nameless fort along the Gold Coast which harboured a couple of hundred merchants.
Three Caribbean islands of which only one is in the game, St. Thomas.

Now unfortunately, in multiplayer games there are rarely vacancies in places as lucrative as these left by the time Denmark starts exploring. Therefore Denmark usually ends up colonising Hudson Bay. This might not be as weird as it seems – Jens Munk explored the bay IRL but suffered too high attrition and was forced to turn back.

I am not sure what should be done about the whole colonisation deal so I am just laying it out.

Strength
Although the EEP and PAoE has improved upon this, Denmark generally gets either totally or partly bashed by Sweden when both are AI controlled. Another common sight is Holstein taking Jylland as well.
The Holstein thing is generally due to the ridiculous army sizes of one-state minors. With Sweden, things are more complex. The two largest problems here are:
- The mountains/fjelds of Norway were considered very hard to conquer. As the AI does not have to deal with psychological factors such as these, is generally has an easy time gobbling up Norway.
- Sweden is overpowered. There solution here is not to make Denmark stronger but rather to make Sweden weaker. I am not sure if someone has already done this, but Sweden should be very poor until about the time of the great military innovations. There it should receive an event boosting base taxes across Sweden proper.

Another issue with Danish strength is the navy. Through most of the timeframe Denmark was amongst the top 5 naval powers in Europe sometimes reaching as high as #2. In the game this is rarely expressed because of Denmarks relatively poor economy. Should we add some warship gains to some of the existing naval events?

Minor issues:

Should Sjælland produce grain or fish?

Does anyone want to parse my events?
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127232

Should Denmark have an event reducing BB for inheriting Norway? Afterall, nobody besides Sweden really cared at the time an DK does not really need to get off on the wrong foot.


That is about it for now... What do you think?

Just noticed this thrad and decided to chip, me being danish and all...

keeping norway.
I think that improving the fort size would hamper the conquest of norway quite a bit. Maybe make all the provinces Denmark should keep of norway medium forts?

As for the navy, I think its a great idea. MAybe add some warships in the following events: The Great Naval Reform(3288), Danish East Indian Company(3295), The Modernisation of the Navy(3298).
Maybe add 10 warships to the first navalreform, 10 in the eastindian company and 20 to the modernisation of the navy since that was when the navy really took off.

To ensure higher support limit for Sjælland I would propose that the goods of Skåne and Sjælland is reversed. Meaning that Sjælland produces grain and Skåne produces fish, that will ensure almost the same support limit for Denmark after Skåne is lost.

Badboy reductions is not needed as far as I'm concerned, it won't be the inherritance or norway that makes the badboy skyrocket - isn't it only .25 badboy point per province inherrited?

 

[Bodders]

The simple solution to prevent the annoying wars between Denmark and Holstein's alliance, caused by the inevitable Danish dow on Holstein and usually resulting in a defeat for Denmark is to give Denmark's inital AI war = 0. They don't need to declare any war in the first years after all.

Yep, Erik VII is war=15 and base=1.5 which makes him relatively aggressive. He only has Norway and Sweden on his 'hitlist' but as he's in an alliance with them that makes Holstein the natural choice.

I would set war=0 and base=0.0 for him (DAN_ErikVII.ai) and possibly the two following monarchs (see the ai improvement thread for details so I don't have to look it all up again!). The two missing ones should be added from PAI as Denmark uses this.

 

[henrikhka]

Issues:
Sund Due
German Culture
Keeping Norway
Colonisation
Strength

Sund Due
I've been making some events for Denmark myself, and i've made two options:

A:which gives fortress in Copenhagen +1, and a lot of extra tax value in Copenhagen

B:Which gives a CoT in Copenhagen, tax value in copenhage -2 (people would buy a lot of stuff from other countries, and this would give less income to the state from taxes.), treasury -100 (establishing a CoT ain't cheap, you can't expect people to just start trading at the street, at least you need some kind of market.)

German Culture
I describe this in the bottom of my post.

Keeping Norway
By weakening sweden this really shouldn't be a problem
Colonisation
Denmark was a minor player in the colonial race and held three colonial territories.

Colonisation
I think giving Denmark trade posts and colonies would be stupid, at most we had some contacts with the people living in Greenland.

Strength

giving Denmark a better Sund Due event would definitely give Denmark some much needed power, and weakening Sweden would also be more realistic, Sweden should get it's power from a lot of über leaders later in the game.

Minor issues:

Should Sjælland produce grain or fish? This question really doesn't bother me, the important question is, should the provinces on Greenland produce ivory?? historically they had teeth from the hvalros (don't know what it's called in english)

Does anyone want to parse my events? nope, we don't

Denmark should start with Norway, we've had norway though most of the history, and for many centuries Norwegian didn't even think about being independent.


Kalmar Union
This is the most important part of my post, i think Denmark and Sweden should be able to recreate the Kalmar union, if one of the two gets to control most of Sweden, Norway, Most of Denmark, and perhaps Mecklemburg. It should trigger an event to become the Kalmar Union, giving some huge trade bonuses, becoming more Mercantalistic, Giving more cores, and most important of all: New cultures.

 

[Trin Tragula]

To ensure higher support limit for Sjælland I would propose that the goods of Skåne and Sjælland is reversed. Meaning that Sjælland produces grain and Skåne produces fish, that will ensure almost the same support limit for Denmark after Skåne is lost.

Make both produce grain instead. While Skåne has had significant fishing industries it's economy has allways been mainly based around farming.

 

[Bodders]

I would set war=0 and base=0.0 for him (DAN_ErikVII.ai) and possibly the two following monarchs (see the ai improvement thread for details so I don't have to look it all up again!). The two missing ones should be added from PAI as Denmark uses this.

OK, tests using this so far have not been very good - Denmark is still usually declaring war on Holstein early, most often in the first year though sometimes a little later. I'm trying out totally the same settings as 'peaceful. ai' now to see if that helps. Raising relations doesn't help because Denmark then declares war on Mecklenburg instead. I suppose we could try raising Denmark's relations with the entire HRE - as long as that doesn't then make them be voted emperor

 

[Mad King James]

The main problem is Denmark has an army that's too goddamn big. If the AI has a big army their chance to DoW a neighbor goes way way up.

 

[Twoflower]

The main problem is Denmark has an army that's too goddamn big. If the AI has a big army their chance to DoW a neighbor goes way way up.

Using peaceful AI really helps, I've managed to run several handsoffs for a few decades without a Danish declaration of war. But the army should be smaller as well.

 

[Bodders]

Using peaceful AI really helps, I've managed to run several handsoffs for a few decades without a Danish declaration of war. But the army should be smaller as well.

You must be luckier than me then - I nearly always see it (approximately 70 percent of the time) despite using a less aggressive ai, including in several handsoffs

That's at 'coward' level by the way, may be different at different aggression levels - ai behaviour usually is. Also, as we all know the random number generator isn't exactly random so it could've been a bad day

So far, I'm seeing the same with 'peaceful.ai' as the first one set (again, on coward).

I'd go along with lowering the army size, anyway.

 

[Sikker]

The main problem is Denmark has an army that's too goddamn big. If the AI has a big army their chance to DoW a neighbor goes way way up.

True. It costs too much to maintain for the player anyway, and with the HUUUGE amount of money DK starts with, it is no problem for the AI to build up and army if need be.

 

[henrikhka]

Your're probably right, let's make the danish army smaller, that would make things better.

 

[Lasse Nielsen]

Issues:

Denmark should start with Norway, we've had norway though most of the history, and for many centuries Norwegian didn't even think about being independent.

Denmark and Norway had only shared a monarch for some 40 years and it was noway sure that Norway would stay in a union with Denmark after the troubles under Erik of Pommerania.

 

[henrikhka]

As far as i know Norway never really wanted to be independent (except a few years, that could be simulated by increased revolt risk in some provs, and a few revolts), and though they had their own duke or count e.g. monarch, some years, they were ruled by us (the danes). What troubles are you excactly talking about? My knowledge about Denmark aren't perfect

 

[Sikker]

Denmark and Norway had only shared a monarch for some 40 years and it was noway sure that Norway would stay in a union with Denmark after the troubles under Erik of Pommerania.

I don't agree. Norway was always treated well by Denmark, and they had their own monarch (a prince) - it was called a double monarchy.
Also the Norwegian nobles were NOT powerful - they were all low nobility.

All in all they were treated well, and had no real force to rebel with. I can't see how there could be ANY doubt that they'd stay in the union.

 

[unmerged(16501)]

there are alot of versions reagarding the 400 years denmark and norway spent in union. the newest work on this subject is a four-volume work written by two danish and two norwegian historians

they conclude that the union was chiefly a happy one although the norwegians were treated badly

anyway, in game terms it would probably be most correct with regards to history if we keep the present two contries turn into one model.
it still think it would be better for gameplay if we merged them from the start however

 

[Phystarstk]

I think that we should significantly weaken Sweden. Thats the most important thing, for me. In every game where I'm not directly involved in eastern or nothern europe, Sweden conquers Scandinavia and Finland and always takes HUGE chunks of Russia.

I like the idea of lowering Swedish taxes until a certain event ups them, but I also would like to see greater number of revolts from Norway and Denmark if Sweden rules them. Maybe some event like "The Locals Do Not Approve" and, for 40 years, Danish or Norwegian provinces will have 2 more RR than normal provinces - this would help the fact that there is one scandinavian culture.

 

[Sikker]

the norwegians were treated badly

Well, according to other sources the Norwegians were treated pretty much as well as the Danes .. and certainly better than they were during the Swedish occupation where Norway in effect were reduced to a colony (a place to be exploited by the masters)