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unmerged(40707)

Just call me Yoda in private!
Mar 1, 2005
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In this case, we will have to change EVENTHIST291021 but there is no reason to postpone date if he was the real ruler since June.
 
Jan 9, 2005
8.858
4
Should he not be Karl II, though?

EDIT


Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131508 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1448
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = may
		year = 1470
	}
	name = "[COLOR=Yellow]Karl II[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 7
	MIL = 3
	ADM = 3
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Rigsforstander since 1438. Ruled Sweden three times, events should be created to simulate this."
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131509 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1470
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1504
	}
	name = "Sten Sture den äldre [COLOR=Lime](Karl II)[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 5
	dormant = yes
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131510 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1504
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1512
	}
	name = "Svante Nilsson [COLOR=Lime](Karl II)[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 4
	dormant = yes
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131511 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1512
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1520
	}
	name = "Sten Sture den yngre [COLOR=Lime](Karl II)[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 2
	MIL = 5
	ADM = 5
	dormant = yes
}

Do we renumber succeeding Charles'? I suggest so, but of course I am no expert on Swedish kings. What is the consensus?

EDIT2: Actually, no - because doing so would mean we could then renumber French kings and then we get funny results... ??? :confused: :eek:o
 
Last edited:
Jan 9, 2005
8.858
4
Kalmar Monarchs

There are a few random gaps in the monarch files for DAN, NOR and SWE - I'll go through and fix them later tomorrow. I'll renumber them as well. :)
 

Toio

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mandead said:
Should he not be Karl II, though?

EDIT


Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131508 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1448
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = may
		year = 1470
	}
	name = "[COLOR=Yellow]Karl II[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 7
	MIL = 3
	ADM = 3
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Rigsforstander since 1438. Ruled Sweden three times, events should be created to simulate this."
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131509 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1470
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1504
	}
	name = "Sten Sture den äldre [COLOR=Lime](Karl II)[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 6
	ADM = 5
	dormant = yes
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131510 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1504
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1512
	}
	name = "Svante Nilsson [COLOR=Lime](Karl II)[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 4
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 4
	dormant = yes
}
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 0131511 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1512
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1520
	}
	name = "Sten Sture den yngre [COLOR=Lime](Karl II)[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 2
	MIL = 5
	ADM = 5
	dormant = yes
}

Do we renumber succeeding Charles'? I suggest so, but of course I am no expert on Swedish kings. What is the consensus?

EDIT2: Actually, no - because doing so would mean we could then renumber French kings and then we get funny results... ??? :confused: :eek:o


what's with this Karl II behind every name?

most sites have Karl II and Karl VIII
http://www.familytreelegends.com/trees/billydel/10/data/76756

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/charles-viii-of-sweden/



Regents of the Kalmar Union and Viceroys (Riksföreståndare)

* 1389-1412 : Margaret I of Sweden (Margareta)
* 1396-1439 : Eric of Pomerania (Erik av Pommern)
* 1438-1440 : Charles VIII of Sweden (Karl Knutsson Bonde)
* 1441-1448 : Christopher of Bavaria (Kristoffer av Bayern)
* 1448-1448 : Viceroys Bengt and Nils Jönsson Oxenstierna
* 1448-1457 : Charles VIII of Sweden
* 1457-1457 : Viceroys Jöns Bengtsson Oxenstierna and Eric Axelsson Tott
* 1457-1464 : Christian I of Sweden (Kristian I)
* 1464-1465 : Charles VIII of Sweden
* 1465-1465 : Viceroy Kettil Karlsson Vasa
* 1465-1466 : Viceroy Jöns Bengtsson Oxenstierna
* 1466-1467 : Viceroy Eric Axelsson Tott
* 1467-1470 : Charles VIII of Sweden
* 1470-1497 : Viceroy Sten Sture the elder (Sten Sture den äldre)
* 1497-1501 : John II of Sweden (Hans)
* 1501-1503 : Viceroy Sten Sture the elder
* 1504-1511 : Viceroy Svante Sture (Svante Nilsson Sture)
* 1512-1512 : Viceroy Eric Trolle
* 1512-1520 : Viceroy Sten Sture the younger (Sten Sture den yngre)
* 1520-1521 : Christian II of Sweden (Kristian II Tyrann))

The House of Vasa

* 1521-1560 : Gustav I of Sweden (Gustav Vasa)
o As Gustav Vasa, viceroy 1521-1523
* 1560-1568 : Eric XIV of Sweden (Erik XIV)
* 1568-1592 : John III of Sweden (Johan III)
* 1592-1599 : Sigismund of Sweden (Sigismund)
* 1599-1611 : Charles IX of Sweden (Karl IX)
o As Duke Charles, viceroy 1599-1604
* 1611-1632 : Gustav Adolphus the great (Gustaf II Adolf den store)
* 1632-1654 : Christina of Sweden (Kristina)

The House of Palatinate

* 1654-1660 : Charles X Gustav of Sweden (Karl X Gustav)
* 1660-1697 : Charles XI of Sweden (Karl XI)
* 1697-1718 : Charles XII of Sweden (Karl XII)
* 1719-1720 : Ulrike Eleonora of Sweden (Ulrika Eleonora)

The House of Hesse

* 1720-1751 : Frederick I of Sweden (Fredrik I)

The House of Holstein-Gottorp

* 1751-1771 : Adolf Frederick of Sweden (Adolf Fredrik)
* 1771-1792 : Gustav III of Sweden (Gustav III)
* 1792-1809 : Gustav IV Adolf of Sweden (Gustav IV Adolf)
* 1809-1818 : Charles XIII of Sweden (Karl XIII)
 

Prinz Wilhelm

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Charles II died in 1470, mandead.

He was styled as Charles VIII by Charles IX to make Sweden have more kings and thus be a more powerful country. It was really just a PR thing. Even Charles VIII saw himself as just Charles II.
 
Jan 9, 2005
8.858
4
Sorry, I misunderstood the matter. :eek:o

@ Toio, (Karl II) because I (wrongly) thought they were regents for Charles II, and anyone who is a regent for a reigning monarch should have that monarch in brackets after the regent's name; see Philippe d'Orléans (Louis XIV) and Edward Seymour (Edward VI) as examples.

Again, sorry I misunderstood - those additions are therefore wrong as they were not regents for Charles II.

But... on the issue of renumbering in the case of previous fictional monarchs, should we do so?

@ Prinz Wilhelm, forgive me Kaiser. :eek:o
 

Toio

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mandead said:
Sorry, I misunderstood the matter. :eek:o

@ Toio, (Karl II) because I (wrongly) thought they were regents for Charles II, and anyone who is a regent for a reigning monarch should have that monarch in brackets after the regent's name; see Philippe d'Orléans (Louis XIV) and Edward Seymour (Edward VI) as examples.

Again, sorry I misunderstood - those additions are therefore wrong as they were not regents for Charles II.

But... on the issue of renumbering in the case of previous fictional monarchs, should we do so?

@ Prinz Wilhelm, forgive me Kaiser. :eek:o

np

As for the numbering of......... Karl II or Karl VIII , i have no leaning,
 
Jan 9, 2005
8.858
4
Toio said:
As for the numbering of......... Karl II or Karl VIII , i have no leaning,
It's difficult... on the one hand I certainly suggest renumbering Nordic monarchs in the case of basing their regnal numbers on earlier fictional/legendary monarchs (in the case of Erik XIV, Karl VIII, &c.), but if we do this for the Nordic nations then we should also do so for other nations, at which point I worry about France as personally I see Hugh Capet as the first king (count of France --> king of France), but that is a whole other story and not for this thread. ;)
 

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mandead said:
It's difficult... on the one hand I certainly suggest renumbering Nordic monarchs in the case of basing their regnal numbers on earlier fictional/legendary monarchs (in the case of Erik XIV, Karl VIII, &c.), but if we do this for the Nordic nations then we should also do so for other nations, at which point I worry about France as personally I see Hugh Capet as the first king (count of France --> king of France), but that is a whole other story and not for this thread. ;)


the full list is post 124
 
Jan 9, 2005
8.858
4
Toio said:
the full list is post 124
Yes, I saw them - I have no problem with these so long as you post them properly with IDs and stats, &c.

I don't know much of the era so have no issue.

EDIT: Do make sure all regents have their monarch in brackets, in Swedish/Danish or whichever is relevant.
 
Last edited:

Heimdall

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Prinz Wilhelm said:
Should he really be styled as Charles VIII? He styled himself as Charles II...
Do you have some kind of easiliy availible source to confirm that?

From my point of view, he is always referred to as "Karl Knutsson (Bonde)" (Bonde was the family name that his family adopted later on) in history books. He is today commonly known as "Karl Knutsson (Bonde)". Naming him either Karl II or Karl VIII would look awfully wierd.

Toio said:
I think we need a start date of November 1448 instead of the June one, it does not sit well with me when soldiers elect someone king before the council/state or nobles have had a say. thoughts?
Well if the Wiki is true then "Charles was elected king of Sweden on June 20 and on June 28 he was hailed as the new monarch at the Stone of Mora", then the start date would indeed be in June. Being elected at the Stones of Mora is a good start date.
 
Jan 9, 2005
8.858
4
I may be well off the mark here, but should/could this event not convert Denmark to Protestantism?

Code:
#(1533) Count's Feud
event = {
	id = 3293
	random = no
	country = DAN
	name = "EVENTNAME3293" #The Count's Feud
	desc = "EVENTHIST3293"

	date = { day = 11 month = april year = 1533 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3293A" #Support Christian of Holstein
		[COLOR=Lime]command = { type = religion which = protestant }[/COLOR]
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 1 }
		command = { type = relation which = SWE value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = SHL value = 100 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 48 value = 8 }
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3293B" #Support Christian II
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -2 }
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 042006 } #Christian III
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = 042016 } #His line ends with him anyway. #Christian II
		command = { type = relation which = MEC value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = POM value = 100 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 48 value = 5 }
		command = { type = stability value = -6 }
	}
}

#-#When Frederik I died in 1533 the bishops and most of the aristocracy were initially opposed to the election of his son Christian, duke of Holstein, as new King because he was a Lutheran. The burghers and peasants on their part wanted a return of the deposed Christian II who was imprisoned at Sønderborg. The mayors of Copenhagen and Malmö devised a plan together with the Hansa to free Christian II and turn the two largest Danish cities into partners of the Hanseatic League. The Danish Council gained the help of arch-enemy Gustav Vasa to thwart the plot, which became known as 'Grevefejden' (The Count's Feud) because the rebel forces were led by Count Christoffer of Oldenburg.

As it stands, Denmark has no conversion events...
 

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Heimdall said:
Do you have some kind of easiliy availible source to confirm that?

From my point of view, he is always referred to as "Karl Knutsson (Bonde)" (Bonde was the family name that his family adopted later on) in history books. He is today commonly known as "Karl Knutsson (Bonde)". Naming him either Karl II or Karl VIII would look awfully wierd..

I'd rather have him as Karl Knutsson but he did indeed refer to himself as "Karl II". The Bonde part wasn't even used by him at all.

So it's either Karl II or Karl Knutsson (Karl Knutsson as when he is regent, of course)
 
Jan 9, 2005
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Prinz Wilhelm said:
So it's either Karl II or Karl Knutsson (Karl Knutsson as when he is regent, of course)[/FONT]
Karl II as king, and Karl Knutsson as regent. :)
 

Heimdall

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Prinz Wilhelm said:
I'd rather have him as Karl Knutsson but he did indeed refer to himself as "Karl II".
So it's either Karl II or Karl Knutsson (Karl Knutsson as when he is regent, of course)
I agree with you on the above. Rather Karl Knutsson than Karl II or Karl VIII.

How did this topic end up in the Danish thread btw? :D

mandead said:
Karl II as king, and Karl Knutsson as regent. :)
Why use a name in AGCEEP that noone else uses?
 
Jan 9, 2005
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Heimdall said:
Why use a name in AGCEEP that noone else uses?
Well, Karl II or Karl VIII - I am not too bothered on the numbering. You and your pretend kings... :rolleyes: :D

AGCEEP precident is to use normal names for regents/presidents, &c. and regnal names for monarchs.

EDIT:


"Referring to Karl Knutsson as Charles VIII is a later invention. The Swedish kings Erik XIV (1560-68) and Charles IX (1604-1611) took their numbers after studying a highly fictitious History of Sweden. Prior to Karl Knutsson Sweden had only had one king called Karl (Charles). Charles's coins therefore correctly refer to him as Charles II."
 
Last edited:

Heimdall

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mandead said:
Well, Karl II or Karl VIII - I am not too bothered on the numbering. You and your pretend kings... :rolleyes: :D

AGCEEP precident is to use normal names for regents/presidents, &c. and regnal names for monarchs.

They are real d*mnit! :D

Yes, I understand. But the problem is that as far as I know, Karl didn't use any regnal number. The first one to do was Erik XIV, who reigned well over a century later. Thus naming him Karl II or even Karl VIII would be totally anacronistic and only serve to confuse people. He has always been known as Karl Knutsson (Bonde) so why change it?
 
Jan 9, 2005
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Heimdall said:
They are real d*mnit! :D

Yes, I understand. But the problem is that as far as I know, Karl didn't use any regnal number. The first one to do was Erik XIV, who reigned well over a century later. Thus naming him Karl II or even Karl VIII would be totally anacronistic and only serve to confuse people. He has always been known as Karl Knutsson (Bonde) so why change it?
Read the amendment to my previous post. :)
 

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mandead said:
Charles's coins therefore correctly refer to him as Charles II."[/I]
Says a wiki entry that doesn't even give you any references... :rolleyes:

Even wikipedia is confused. The article is filed under "Charles VIII" and the first sentence begins "Charles II of Sweden... a.k.a. Karl Knutsson (Bonde)". What do you make of it?

I'm not going to change my opinion until someone comes up with better 'evidence'. I still want him named 'Karl Knutsson (Bonde)'.
 
Jan 9, 2005
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4
Heimdall said:
I'm not going to change my opinion until someone comes up with better 'evidence'. I still want him named 'Karl Knutsson (Bonde)'.
And so he shall be, as regent. ;)

A king should have a regnal name; the question is whether he ought to be II or VIII... he could be Karl II Bonde or Karl VIII Bonde, however.

There is an ongoing debate about nicknames, but if his seems to be universal as you say (and evidence of course backs you up here) then there's nothing wrong with giving him Bonde as a suffix. :)