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Petermo

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Why there are the two cultures czech and slovak separated? They are so close to each other that can be said they are two dialects from a same language. They are actually closer than croat and bulgarian languages, but these are in the mod as one culture...

The cultural differences are not bigger than the prussian and rhenish ones, although these two are united in a german culture.

I don't think uniting the culture will make Bohemia or Hungary so much more agressive to each other, even when they are in their greatest power. The austrians could become more agressive, but i don't see this as a problem, as they are suppose to get those provinces anyway.
 

Toio

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Why there are the two cultures czech and slovak separated? They are so close to each other that can be said they are two dialects from a same language. They are actually closer than croat and bulgarian languages, but these are in the mod as one culture...

The cultural differences are not bigger than the prussian and rhenish ones, although these two are united in a german culture.

I don't think uniting the culture will make Bohemia or Hungary so much more agressive to each other, even when they are in their greatest power. The austrians could become more agressive, but i don't see this as a problem, as they are suppose to get those provinces anyway.

i agree with you on the slovak culture, what did you have in mind ?
make slovak czech culture and use the slovak for Bulgo-thracian for the southern slavonic areas ?

culture does not bring aggression ..........all it does is give the state more manpower, more tax money and less chance for a revolt to happen during war time
 

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Culture is not only language. And there is a reason why we have two different countries in Europe right now.

Difference is for gameplay and historical purpose at start for Hussites, next Habsburg after Ladislaus Postumus sequence and finally inheritance of Hungary.
 

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Ok, but language is the most distinctive aspect of a culture, religion too. Other aspects was created more recently with the rise of nationalisms, with no influence in the most part of the EU2 time period.

Czechs and slovaks have (and had) the same language and religion. Well, maybe the reformation was more influent in Bohemia, but in the end both stayed catholic. There were times when they were separeted in different countries, but they ended united under the habsburg monarchy, and i don't think these treated czechs ans slovaks differently. I don't find their history so much more different from each other than the hollandish and flemish ones, who are (correctly as i see) united in a single dutch culture.

About the bulgarian culture, i'm not sure, it would make sence. But i'm worried that a starting in the desintegration of the slavonic culture could end with one province cultures like slovene, bosnian or montenegrin. That's would be completely non practical.
 

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Ok, but language is the most distinctive aspect of a culture, religion too. Other aspects was created more recently with the rise of nationalisms, with no influence in the most part of the EU2 time period.

Czechs and slovaks have (and had) the same language and religion. Well, maybe the reformation was more influent in Bohemia, but in the end both stayed catholic. There were times when they were separeted in different countries, but they ended united under the habsburg monarchy, and i don't think these treated czechs ans slovaks differently. I don't find their history so much more different from each other than the hollandish and flemish ones, who are (correctly as i see) united in a single dutch culture.

About the bulgarian culture, i'm not sure, it would make sence. But i'm worried that a starting in the desintegration of the slavonic culture could end with one province cultures like slovene, bosnian or montenegrin. That's would be completely non practical.

yoda answered in regards to why we have slovak culture, even if i have different views in regards to the game and different in real life.

as for nations today , well culture is the foundation of a nation , as an example, if we see a nation as a house , then culture will be its foundations, nationality its walls and religion its roof.
so, when there was a nation called yugoslavia, its foundations where serbian, croatian, slovenian, bosnian etc, when 1 culture tries to dominate the other cultures by firstly, declaring, croatian and slovenian as dialects and not to be taught and spoken, then cultures revolt,......... bloodshed,
this serb declaration on the linguistic side of yugoslavia is basically ethnic cleansing/genocide..........we do not want to see this do we ?
there are many other reasons why Yugoslavia split, culture was a very big part.
culture as declared by the UN is immunable, nationality and religion are not.

enough on the lecture:D just have a good game
 

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I don't understand, so you are in favor of the desintegration of the slavonic culture into serbian, croatian, bulgarian, etc? I just think it wouldn't be pratical, because coutries like the OE already have so many national cultures that you can't read everything sometimes, and they should have 3 more at least, it's just too much i think.
 

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I don't understand, so you are in favor of the desintegration of the slavonic culture into serbian, croatian, bulgarian, etc? I just think it wouldn't be pratical, because coutries like the OE already have so many national cultures that you can't read everything sometimes, and they would need 3 more at least, it's just too much i think.
 

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I don't understand, so you are in favor of the desintegration of the slavonic culture into serbian, croatian, bulgarian, etc? I just think it wouldn't be pratical, because coutries like the OE already have so many national cultures that you can't read everything sometimes, and they should have 3 more at least, it's just too much i think.

no i am not saying this. I said that yodamaster gave you the reason why we have slovak even though I do not agree with this.

as fro serbian, croatian, slovenian, bosnian, bulgarian, yes they are slavonic
 

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Better solution with current map?

No better solution ATM as I tried removing slovak and making an austrain/bavarian language out of it, but all this did was to force even more an austrain expansion into HUN, and romanian areas and not much into the germanic zones.

IIRC, one province i changed to magyar and the other polish
 

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Invoking something really ancient here, but I don't really agree with the treatment of the Ostmarch province.
back to ancient EU2 history.

when was it decided that ostmark should be Bohemian
That would be when Vaclav Adam, Norrefeldt, Isaac Brock, me and others discussed the Hussite war sequence, back in, err, 2004. Can look up the posts if you want me to :)

from the net

Ostmark is a modern German translation of the term Ostarrîchi,

Ostarrîchi is an Old High German name, first found in the famous Ostarrîchi document of 996, where it refers to the Margraviate ruled by the Babenberg Count Henry I located mostly in what is today Lower Austria and part of Upper Austria.
You realize that this refers to all of Austria proper, right? The modern German translation of Ostarrîchi is Österreich, which is what the whole country is called today in German.

Austria (i.e. Lower Austria with Vienna, Upper Austria with Linz) = Ostarrichi = Ostmarch. It basically refers to the Carolingian "Marcha orientalis", back then the eastern part of the Stem Duchy (Stammesherzogtum) of Bavaria, which constantly had to be defended from invading Hungarians.
Bayern_im_10.Jh.png


The name Ostmarch for the part of Austria proper north of the Danube is just wrong - it's like calling the Memel province "East Prussia" (I was struggling for an appropriate example here :D). At some point, it was a common AGCEEP policy to just ignore the names on the old map and decide on what provinces should reasonably represent. This can often be confusing (for example, in the current AGCEEP, the "Kleves" province represents the Duchy of Berg while Münster represents the Duchy of Kleve!), but it was better than being stuck with a province setup that sometimes doesn't make sense and that we sometimes disagree with.

Toio said:
I think on our map, it was to represent the tabor region, but the tabor region is in southern portion of Bohemia province
Well, that was what we thought was inappropriate - the Ostmarch province on the vanilla map is a lot bigger than the part of Austria north of the Danube and covers large parts of Southern Bohemia. Budweis was a bigger and more important city throughout the EU2 timespan than Krems. Another problem about having the Ostmarch province represent the part of Austria north of the Danube is how to fit this in with the historical and traditional division of Austria proper into Upper and Lower Austria (in the AGCEEP, Austria province = Lower Austria, Salzburg province = Upper Austria). The part north of the Danube is also divided along these lines. At least when I (or someone ;) ) would finally get to implementing the sequence for the struggle between Friedrich V and Albrecht VI, that division becomes quite important.

the austrian bohemian border is not the danube , but the thaya river

The Thaya (-German, Czech: Dyje [ˈdɪjɛ]) is a river in Central Europe, tributary to the Morava. It is about 285 km long and meanders from west to east in the border area between Lower Austria (Austria) and South Moravia (Czech Republic), but does not exactly follow the border in most parts.
Right, but, for my part, I would see that river approximately in the middle of the Ostmarch province.
Also, the important thing here is that there is a river as natural border between Austria and Bohemia, so that it is accurate in the game to have a river (with its effects on combat) between them.

I think we have 2 options for modders to decide on.

1. we go full historical and give ostmark to HAB from start and make culture german and remove the core of ostmarch for BOH, change all hussite event which is a maddening headache to do
This is "full historical" under the premise that a province always has to represent what its name implies. Adapt that principle to other areas on the map and be faced with an even more maddening headache :)

2. leavi the hussites scenario as is, and when albert is made archduke of austria, then at that time BOH secede province of ostmarch to, HAB , also remove the core and culture converts to german.

with this version, we maintain the existing hussites version
Can't really say I agree with this (which is what has been adapted), because it is just inconsistent. I'd certainly prefer the provinces continuously representing the same territory. There also is few reason for increasing the size of Austria proper in comparison to vanilla (in vanilla: Austria + Ostmarch; in the AGCEEP Austria + Salzburg). Besides, we actually had taken care to balance the total taxvalues of the Austrian Erblande, Bohemia, Hungary and Poland (I'll look up the posts, which are somewhere in the Hussite wars thread); this balance is hurt by taking Ostmarch from Bohemia.

this can also improve the current BOH annex HAB problems we have now.
Those could be fixed by other means.
Sorry for bringing this up now, but I'd really favour having Ostmarch represent South Bohemia throughout the game. Bohemia proper being represented by two provinces (Bohemia and Sudeten) while Austria proper is represented by three (Austria, Salzburg and Ostmarch) just isn't right. Of course, with the new map, this whole discussion becomes obsolete, however I'd like to get to work on what I have promised to work on four years ago for Bohemia and Austria (a better representation of the civil wars between Romanists and Nationalists in Bohemia, implementing a sequence for the struggle between Friedrich and Albrecht) soon.
 
Last edited:

Toio

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Invoking something really ancient here, but I don't really agree with the treatment of the Ostmarch province.

That would be when Vaclav Adam, Norrefeldt, Isaac Brock, me and others discussed the Hussite war sequence, back in, err, 2004. Can look up the posts if you want me to :)


You realize that this refers to all of Austria proper, right? The modern German translation of Ostarrîchi is Österreich, which is what the whole country is called today in German.

Austria (i.e. Lower Austria with Vienna, Upper Austria with Linz) = Ostarrichi = Ostmarch. It basically refers to the Carolingian "Marcha orientalis", back then the eastern part of the Stem Duchy (Stammesherzogtum) of Bavaria, which constantly had to be defended from invading Hungarians.
Bayern_im_10.Jh.png


The name Ostmarch for the part of Austria proper north of the Danube is just wrong - it's like calling the Memel province "East Prussia" (I was struggling for an appropriate example here :D). At some point, it was a common AGCEEP policy to just ignore the names on the old map and decide on what provinces should reasonably represent. This can often be confusing (for example, in the current AGCEEP, the "Kleves" province represents the Duchy of Berg while Münster represents the Duchy of Kleve!), but it was better than being stuck with a province setup that sometimes doesn't make sense and that we sometimes disagree with.


Well, that was what we thought was inappropriate - the Ostmarch province on the vanilla map is a lot bigger than the part of Austria north of the Danube and covers large parts of Southern Bohemia. Budweis was a bigger and more important city throughout the EU2 timespan than Krems. Another problem about having the Ostmarch province represent the part of Austria north of the Danube is how to fit this in with the historical and traditional division of Austria proper into Upper and Lower Austria (in the AGCEEP, Austria province = Lower Austria, Salzburg province = Upper Austria). The part north of the Danube is also divided along these lines. At least when I (or someone ;) ) would finally get to implementing the sequence for the struggle between Friedrich V and Albrecht VI, that division becomes quite important.


Right, but, for my part, I would see that river approximately in the middle of the Ostmarch province.
Also, the important thing here is that there is a river as natural border between Austria and Bohemia, so that it is accurate in the game to have a river (with its effects on combat) between them.


This is "full historical" under the premise that a province always has to represent what its name implies. Adapt that principle to other areas on the map and be faced with an even more maddening headache :)


Can't really say I agree with this (which is what has been adapted), because it is just inconsistent. I'd certainly prefer the provinces continuously representing the same territory. There also is few reason for increasing the size of Austria proper in comparison to vanilla (in vanilla: Austria + Ostmarch; in the AGCEEP Austria + Salzburg). Besides, we actually had taken care to balance the total taxvalues of the Austrian Erblande, Bohemia, Hungary and Poland (I'll look up the posts, which are somewhere in the Hussite wars thread); this balance is hurt by taking Ostmarch from Bohemia.


Those could be fixed by other means.
Sorry for bringing this up now, but I'd really favour having Ostmarch represent South Bohemia throughout the game. Bohemia proper being represented by two provinces (Bohemia and Sudeten) while Austria proper is represented by three (Austria, Salzburg and Ostmarch) just isn't right. Of course, with the new map, this whole discussion becomes obsolete, however I'd like to get to work on what I have promised to work on four years ago for Bohemia and Austria (a better representation of the civil wars between Romanists and Nationalists in Bohemia, implementing a sequence for the struggle between Friedrich and Albrecht) soon.

Thanks twoflower, we already knew this but in the end it came down to "what happens to HAB after the hussite wars", they have only 2 provinces while BOH has 6.
With 2 game issues needing fixes, BOH annex HAB - common or war and the other was the power of HUN against a 2 province HAB. Usually led to war,

As you described we left the hussites war scenario as it was and then at the conclusion of it , we had to save HAB. , it a pity that ostmarch was not split in 2.
NOTE: I also tried leaving ostmarch with BOH but giving HAB a core on it, to prevent an acceptance of annexation. no luck, BOH went to war. economic, manpower Balance issue was my quess.

A 3 province HAB rebalances all the immediate area , then slowly HAB gets Krain 1460 and steirmark in 1463., tyrol 1493 ( as you know all unhistorical) ......By the time of MAX the emperor, we have a decent HAB, which plays historically.

If you can get the same balanced results by changing some things I will be pleased. As theres always room for improvements.
 

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Thanks twoflower, we already knew this but in the end it came down to "what happens to HAB after the hussite wars", they have only 2 provinces while BOH has 6.
With 2 game issues needing fixes, BOH annex HAB - common or war and the other was the power of HUN against a 2 province HAB. Usually led to war,
Well, the problem with Bohemia is that it is left without serious troubles between 1440 and 1468 (when it loses the crown lands to Hungary) - seeing that this was a period of massive internal strife and civil war between the Nationalists under Podiebrad and the Romanists under Ulrich von Rosenberg, that isn't really accurate. Vaclav Adam (who was by far the most knowledgeable person on Bohemia roaming this board, but had to stop posting due to other commitments) actually suggested having another 2-country civil war. If this is implemented (nobody opposed it back then), I don't think Bohemia being too strong is much of an issue.

Austria, on the other hand, shouldn't be that strong in the 15th century. In fact, there was actually a consensus to have Styria turn into Austria as per the historical choices (the "Austrian" Hapsburg branch became extinct with Ladislaus Postumus' death in 1457). I'll repost the old discussion.

As you described we left the hussites war scenario as it was and then at the conclusion of it , we had to save HAB. , it a pity that ostmarch was not split in 2.
Well, the problem here is that the sequences planned by Vaclav, Svantevid and myself that would (in my opinion) have worked quite well with the old setup were never finished, which I'm quite sorry for. I'll work something out.
 

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I agree with Toio. This was the "best" solution with current map in the end.

I have to disagree strongly. It may be the best solution with the current events. But that would be a reason to improve the events, not to create a flawed and inconsistent setup.
 

Toio

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I have to disagree strongly. It may be the best solution with the current events. But that would be a reason to improve the events, not to create a flawed and inconsistent setup.

I am not going to prevent any changes you make and the changes you propose seem to enhance the period.
I agree with a 2nd civil war , I also agree with a HUN "inheritance" of some of BOH lands.

In the end , its the AI engine we need to tame not the other modders.

Sometimes, we need to comprise with the limited map and the tendency of the engine to make events we do not entirely like so that we can achieve a better result further along in time. As an example, I find the size of mantua province weird, in that mantua in reality is only 10% of this province , the rest is western veneto ( or eastern lombardy, same thing, same end) being under VEN for the entire game period. But I had to bite my lip and let it remain as it is or else the areas balance is askew.

economic imbalance makes the engine do different things.

I await your new events as you have far more knowledge than me in this central european area