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Garbon

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Things to be included unless controversy arises:

-New CoTs in East Africa (Rufiji, Ifat & Mogadiscio)
-Removal of Ivoria CoT, addition of Timbuktu CoT
-Removal of Dahomey as a state (Begho to Ashanti)
-Leone and Palanas become empty provinces with natives
-Aden should be natural ally of Adal
-Songhai will start out with a higher land setting (likely 6/7) to accomodate for the fact that they are a landlocked nation, but we still don't want them to get too much of a land bonus
-Expand Kongo's borders to include the three coastal provinces
-New events for Morocco to encourage break away of Sus
-Berber culture in Sahara province
-Morocco gains berber culture in event 232009 and Sus gains arabic culture in events 166000 & 166001.



Been discussed but waiting for agreement:

-Should Mali have coastal provinces?
-Ethiopia to gain revolter to give it a chance to divide into two states


On the to do/discussion list:

-Fulani takeover events
-Representing post-Mali successor states
-Tracking down unecessary African cultures
-Do we need a Mossi culture?
-Need to code expanded East African setup in Mozambique and South


Bugs:

-The revolt events for the Barbary coast needs mending. Events 338200-3382004 should all have have the line:
command = { type = stability value = -1 } removed. (file:eep_ald.txt)
-Remove the following lines from event 232009 MOR:
Code:
[color=white]		command = { type = addcore which = 732 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 806 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 733 }
		command = { type = capital which = 733 }[/color]
And replace with:
Code:
[color=white]		command = { type = addcore which = 732 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 805 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 1595 }[/color]
 
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Maps & 'Changes' in AGC/EEP

NA1419.JPG

North Africa

NEW-3.jpeg

West Africa

teafrica.JPG

East Africa

AGC Changes ~never implemented though~

STARTING CONDITIONS
1. Nubia is given moslem tech development, rather than exotic. [1.06]
2. Xhosa is replaced with the Hausa states (Kano as capital). The Hausa states would own the provinces of Kano and Nupe (formerly Benin provinces), as well as Douala.
3. Benin is replaced by Oyo (Oye as capital).
4. Kongo should own the province of Mayumba. The population should be roughly that of other Kongo provinces (any natives there need to be removed as well). Kongo should also get Kribi and Muni.
5. The Mameluks should be given an AI file of their own. Basic traits are peaceful behaviour, no colonizing and free trade.
6. The Mameluks should be of sunni religion, for historical reasons.
7. Timbuktu should not be controlled by rebels at the start of the game; it was not conquered by Songhai for at least 30 years after the start of the game, rather than immediately following it.
8. The Mameluks should start with low Mercantilism (free trade).
9. Berber will be used as the province culture for north Africa west of Tunisia (no Arab provinces there).
10. Morocco will have Berber/Tuareg as state cultures, Fez will have Berber and Tunisia and Algiers will both have both Berber and Arabic as state cultures.
11. The country of Futa Toro is added, covering Louga and Awdaghost (currently a Mali province).
12. The country of Jolof Empire is added, covering Senegal, Dakar and Walata (currently a Mali province).
13. The country of Tuareg is added, covering Tassaret, Nouadibuh, Nouakchott, Anti-Atlas (colony), Mdennah (colony) and Azaud (colony).
14. Mali gets Gambia, Salamance and Guinea.
15. The natives in Madagascar should have their population and aggressiveness increased, to more accurately portray Madagascar's history.


EVENTS
1. Upon the fall of Songhai, Zaria is seceded to Hausa.
2. Sometime during the 1500's, Ethiopia gets an opportunity to convert to catholicism, advance to the orthodox techgroup and get a bonus to military technology. They must have made contact with the Portuguese, however, and there should be a price to pay.
3. Once the Portuguese have established contact with Kongo, they should get an event where Kongo is vassalized. Portugal would also have the option of trying to christianize Kongo, which would lead to a few Kongo events relating to it, and trying to annex the country (Kongo gets a two-choice event with the default answer being no). Portugal gets Mayumba in the first two options.
4. 1560 (offset 10 years): natives ("rebels") invade Kongo. If they get control over large enough parts of Kongo, the vassalization with Portugal is broken. If Portugal owns Kongo at the time, they get to fight the "natives" instead. The natives would probably be handled with province-specific revolt risks (that are eventually removed).
5. Around 1450, the Mameluks should get an event which worsens relations (-100) with Venice and Genoa while raising Mercantilism and giving some money (200 ducats).
6. Around 1450, the Mameluks should get an event which noticably reduces the Quality and Offensive values.


QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS
1. Should any northern African provinces have 'berber' culture?
2. Which cultures should exist in Africa (lesser, similar ones should be combined)?
3. Should Sahara have Tuareg culture? (it's the only civilized province with it at the moment)
4. Does anyone know why Timbuktu is controlled by rebels in 1419 and defect from Mali to Songhai almost immediately? Is it for historical reasons?
5. Should African countries get to control more of the "native" provinces of the same culture? Or at least CB shields on them?
6. Which culture should the province of Zaria have?
7. Should the base price of slaves be increased?
8. Should Nubia start out as sunni muslim?


More questions
1. Event #2 listed above: how about latin techgroup, but only as long as remaining a vassal of Portugal (breaking results in stepping down a techgroup or two)?

EEP Changes ~need compile changes for East Africa~

Rebel forces no longer control Timbuktu
Songhai starts off with only Gao & Say
Hausa has Zaria, Nupa, and Kano
Oyo has Oye
Benin has Nigeria, Accra, and Ivoria
Mossi has Ouagadougou
Mali has Jenne
Kongo knows of Zanzibar instead of Ivoria
Timbuktu becomes default CoT (over Ivoria)
Timbuktu added as revolter
Oyo and Benin in alliance till 1466

City of Oye changed to Oyo
City of Accra changed to Benin
Walata province represent Bambuk
Jenne province represents Bure
Bambuk province represents Jenne
Bure province represents Ouagadougou

Songhai is pagan and becomes sunni in 1496
Mossi is pagan
Timbuktu is sunni
Hausa is sunni
Oyo is pagan
Ouagadougou(Bure) and Say start off as pagan


+Fez and Algiers are no longer starting nations
+Kabylia owned by Tunisia
+Cyrenaica is removed as a revolter and nation ( now East Africa nation )
+Introduction of Sus nation
+Morocco has cb's on Fez and Tangiers
+Portugal is at war with Morocco and Tlemcen
+Morocco's capital is in Fez
+Tlemcen and Tunisia no longer in alliance
+Morocco has relation of +100 with Songhai.
+Morocco's color on polit map changed to the golden brown color, because that green was to similar to Portugal's green for my taste.
+New monarchs for Morocco, Sus, and Algiers.
+Tlemcen's capital is in Atlas to simulate city of Tlemcen
+Conquest of Sudan events
+Rougher fall of Tunisia in 1488
+Some sort of Alawite sequence

My analysis bit in the next piece.
 
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Garbon

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(I'll eventually post all of them in this thread, but I'll start with North Africa)

North Africa

The EEP setup (How it works, what it does, and why)

The Morocco and Fez situation : In its country description, Paradox cites the inclusion of Fez, because it hosted many opposing factions during Morocco’s history. While this may be true, the city of Fez has been, for the most part, ruled by some power that called itself Morocco (or at least the power that was recognized as the Kingdom of Morocco). With such in mind, I believe that the tag could be better used to simulate the psuedo-autonomy of the southern portion of Morocco.

During the rule of the Wattasids, the south was always autonomous in all but title. The Saadian dynasty was founded in southern Morocco and came to rule the entire kingdom. After the end of the Saadian dynasty and before the rise of the Alawites, the southern extremities of Morocco were independent from the north. The usefulness of a tag representing the South is much greater than one to represent Fez. (Ideally there would be three tags for Morocco, but with a limited amount of tags, that’d just be wasteful.)

Therefore, the FEZ tag was given to Sus and is no longer a starting nation.

Algiers and Tlemcen: Algiers was the name given to the nation founded by the Barbarossa's as they conquered lands from the local Algerian rulers and most importantly, the Zayyanid dynasty centered around the city of Tlemcen. In reality, northern Algeria was ruled by various independent kings until they were annexed by the Barbarossas and other military leaders to follow. However, as tags are few, its best to represent this by a decentralized Tlemcen state that eventually loses territory to a revolting Algiers state. Both existed at the same time, so both should have tags so that they can exist at the same time. The Paradox method of just changing from the Zayyanid dynasty's monarchs to the installed governors fails to accurately portray what actually happened. For that reason, the XHO tag was given to Tlemcen, and Algiers was removed as a starting nation.

Random thoughts :D

Morocco will have Berber/Tuareg as state cultures, Fez will have Berber and Tunisia and Algiers will both have both Berber and Arabic as state cultures.

Morocco should have Arabic and Berber state cultures with it losing either Arabic or Berber in 1472 when the player decides whether to support the Saadis or the Wattasids. Tuareg should never be a state culture for Morocco at any time. It doesn't really make sense. I agree with the rest though.

1. Should any northern African provinces have 'berber' culture?
2. Which cultures should exist in Africa (lesser, similar ones should be combined)?
3. Should Sahara have Tuareg culture? (it's the only civilized province with it at the moment)

-Anti Atlas (added to Morocco's starting provinces in EEP) should have Berber culture. I'm not sure where else, except perhaps in Algiers/Tlemcen near the PTI.
-No cultures should be removed from North,West, or East Africa as each one has/or will have a role to play in their respective regions. Even ones like senegambian that are currently only in uncolonized provinces are important.
-Sahara should probably be changed to Berber culture, as it would be the capital of Sus which would have Berber culture. However, Tuareg culture could be placed in Timbuktu, with the culture being changed when Songhai takes the city.
-MKJ's idea about an independent Tuareg state is interesting, but I wonder if its really worthy of inclusion...

~Note that I didn't make any comment about the Mams as I don't know enough of their history to feel confident about saying anything. What I do know is that Cyrenaica should and as far as I know has been removed in both mods as a revolter~


West Africa

11. The country of Futa Toro is added, covering Louga and Awdaghost (currently a Mali province).
12. The country of Jolof Empire is added, covering Senegal, Dakar and Walata (currently a Mali province).

I didn't push for inclusion of these (or Kaabu for that matter) because information on them is sketchy at best for a majority of the period. If we had a multitude of free tags, I'd argue for their inclusion, but we don't and Euros should be able to colonize some, so I think they should get the boot as nice but impractical ideas.
 
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Originally posted by Garbon
I didn't push for inclusion of these (or Kaabu for that matter) because information on them is sketchy at best for a majority of the period. If we had a multitude of free tags, I'd argue for their inclusion, but we don't and Euros should be able to colonize some, so I think they should get the boot as nice but impractical ideas.

I think that these nations are a good idea. There wasn't really very much European colonization in this area IIRC until the French built a fort on the Senegal later on. Plus the Fulani would eventually be very important to the history of the region.
 

Garbon

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But can we really spare the tags, combined with the fact that the Fulani played a major role because they migrated and then conquered. It wouldn't make sense for a Fulani state to conquer anything as thats not what really happened. I messed around with having Futa Toro before but I couldn't find anything in terms of monarchs and its history prior to the Fulani migrations.
 

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Originally posted by Garbon
But can we really spare the tags, combined with the fact that the Fulani played a major role because they migrated and then conquered. It wouldn't make sense for a Fulani state to conquer anything as thats not what really happened. I messed around with having Futa Toro before but I couldn't find anything in terms of monarchs and its history prior to the Fulani migrations.

Will the Fulani at least be around after their migrations?
 

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I'm really wondering if we need a separate Fulani state. I mean the result of the Fulani migration, is that they took over most of the already existing states. The Hausa states were overthrown by the Fulani, but not annexed by a Fulani state. So I was planning on having the senegambian culture spread from West to East and then become the state culture of places that were captured. The one thing I haven't figured out, is what to do with all of Mali's formers provinces post-Timbuktu overlords. There might be a need for a Futa Toro state there in the western ones like Walata, where as the Eastern ones would be Segu-Bambara or Macina (using the MAL tag).
 

Garbon

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Inspired by the debate in the North America thread, I'm really wondering what should be done about Dahomey and the Ashanti.

The Ashanti only formed a state (and thus a EU2 state) towards the end of the 16th century, whereas prior they were just a confederacy of tribes. The same is true for Dahomey though I think that their rise to statedom came in the 17th century. So it'd probably be more historically accurate for the Ashanti to revolt into existence come the end of the 16th century and perhaps for Dahomey never to arise as it was always somewhat of a minor unimportant state overshadowed by Oyo(?)

That being said, I think it'd look odd if we tried to had the provinces off to any of the other nations in the region but doubly as odd if we were to leave them as blank spaces to be colonized. Its unfortunate that we can't just have states arise from nothingness as would be the best case for the Ashanti. In the case of Dahomey should we cannibalize its tag for another more worthy African state? (possibly one of the two suggested, Fante or Kaabu)
 

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Inspired by the debate in the North America thread, I'm really wondering what should be done about Dahomey and the Ashanti.

The Ashanti only formed a state (and thus a EU2 state) towards the end of the 16th century, whereas prior they were just a confederacy of tribes. The same is true for Dahomey though I think that their rise to statedom came in the 17th century. So it'd probably be more historically accurate for the Ashanti to revolt into existence come the end of the 16th century and perhaps for Dahomey never to arise as it was always somewhat of a minor unimportant state overshadowed by Oyo(?)

That being said, I think it'd look odd if we tried to had the provinces off to any of the other nations in the region but doubly as odd if we were to leave them as blank spaces to be colonized. Its unfortunate that we can't just have states arise from nothingness as would be the best case for the Ashanti. In the case of Dahomey should we cannibalize its tag for another more worthy African state? (possibly one of the two suggested, Fante or Kaabu)

How about trashing the Dahomey, giving the provinces to the Ashanti, and making all four provinces colonies of population 900? Give them very good relations with all the surrounding nations (RM and military access).

Admittedly, this is really strange, and begs the question of why you even bother making that nation. But making them 900 population means that they can't be colonized into a different culture. The good relations will hopefully keep it from being rapidly anexed, and over time it will grow into actual cities that can do things.

Basically, I'm proposing replacing two ahistorcally developed states with one slightly ahistorically developed state, and freeing up a tag in the process.
 

doktarr

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Random comments on W. Africa

Are the EEP events surrounding Songhai/Timbucktu/Mali going to be carried over? I think they're pretty good.

Shoudln't Songhai start with land at 9 or 10 instead of the 4 or 5 it's at now? I mean, not only are they landlocked, but they don't even know the ocean exists!

Is Oyo absorbing Benin? This frees up a tag, right?

Are all the costal expansions being implemented? Mali getting Gambia, Salamance and Guinea, Huasa getting Douala, and Kongo getting Mayumba, Kribi, and Mun? I like it.

The Kongo/Portugal events look excellent; has anyone scripted them?
I mean the result of the Fulani migration, is that they took over most of the already existing states. The Hausa states were overthrown by the Fulani, but not annexed by a Fulani state. So I was planning on having the senegambian culture spread from West to East and then become the state culture of places that were captured.
Sounds reasonable - have an event that drops stability and causes revolts. Then have an event, triggered by rebel control of the capitol (or by +3 stability, i.e. a government falling), that changes the state culture. They could even be province-based, although that would be brutal if an ahistorical superpower had formed, since they'd get the event a half-dozen times.
The one thing I haven't figured out, is what to do with all of Mali's formers provinces post-Timbuktu overlords. There might be a need for a Futa Toro state there in the western ones like Walata, where as the Eastern ones would be Segu-Bambara or Macina (using the MAL tag).
Sounds reasonable. You're already saving a Tag on Benin and potentially Dahomey, anyway.
 

Garbon

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Actually, the Benin-Oyo thing was the AGC skimping on tags. I said that the worst case scenario would be just to replace Benin with Oyo and that was what was adopted. However, Benin and Oyo coexist, so no tag is save there.

Possible setups coming as soon as I finish uploading.
 

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EEK! Well it looks like my server is down at the moment, so I guess I'll just type it out.

Basically, if we're removing Dahomey then I think the coastal province should be left to be able to be colonized, and we have two choices for Begho. It wouldn't look right as a Hausa state, so we can either give it to the Ashanti or Mossi (whose capital is in Bure). I think that giving it to the Ashanti is most aesthetically appealing.

At the same time, I think that the Ashanti should lose their coastal province as well, as they never really touched the coast at this location. The state closest to the coast was the state of the rivaling Fante. When the Portuguese came to trade, they trading with the Ashanti via the Fante. So, we could give Leone to the Fante using the freed Dahomey tag or we can just leave the coast to be colonized.

If we cull Dahomey then the following states are up for consideration:

Kaabu: Claim to fame as vassal of Mali along the coast. Gained complete freedom circa mid-1400's but never accomplished much of anything. Outlasted Mali post-invasion by Songhai.

Fante: Rival of the Ashanti, a minor power that existed well into the 19th century

Jolof Empire: Empire that broke down into a collection of states that fought European incursions

Futa Toro/Jallon: Home of the fulani who would later migrate and take over many West African kingdoms. Not really need as a state per say.

Macina/Segu/Bambara: Successor states of the kingdom of Mali (could possibly represented through use of Mali tag?)
 

Garbon

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Re: Random comments on W. Africa

Originally posted by doktarr
Are the EEP events surrounding Songhai/Timbucktu/Mali going to be carried over? I think they're pretty good.

Thanks. :cool: Of course, they shall be carried over, as I like them too! :p

Originally posted by doktarr
Shouldn't Songhai start with land at 9 or 10 instead of the 4 or 5 it's at now? I mean, not only are they landlocked, but they don't even know the ocean exists!

What scenario are we talking about? 1520? Although, that even seems a bit high for then.


Originally posted by doktarr
Are all the costal expansions being implemented? Mali getting Gambia, Salamance and Guinea, Huasa getting Douala, and Kongo getting Mayumba, Kribi, and Mun? I like it.

Coastal expansion for Mali depends on whether or not we add another coastal state. Additionally, we have to think about who those territories should go to post Mali's fall as Songhai did not have coastal territories. The Hausa also did not have coastal territories so Douala wouldn't make sense. That said, I'm in favor of expanding Kongo.

Originally posted by doktarr
The Kongo/Portugal events look excellent; has anyone scripted them?

Which ones are you referring to?

Originally posted by doktarr
Sounds reasonable - have an event that drops stability and causes revolts. Then have an event, triggered by rebel control of the capitol (or by +3 stability, i.e. a government falling), that changes the state culture. They could even be province-based, although that would be brutal if an ahistorical superpower had formed, since they'd get the event a half-dozen times.

Yes, I was looking into something similar.
 

doktarr

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Basically, if we're removing Dahomey then I think the coastal province should be left to be able to be colonized, and we have two choices for Begho. It wouldn't look right as a Hausa state, so we can either give it to the Ashanti or Mossi (whose capital is in Bure). I think that giving it to the Ashanti is most aesthetically appealing.

At the same time, I think that the Ashanti should lose their coastal province as well, as they never really touched the coast at this location. The state closest to the coast was the state of the rivaling Fante. When the Portuguese came to trade, they trading with the Ashanti via the Fante. So, we could give Leone to the Fante using the freed Dahomey tag or we can just leave the coast to be colonized.
Putting in the Fante sounds good. The Fante sound like the best replacement state anyway, with the Mali successor states represented using the MAL tag.
 

doktarr

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Re: Re: Random comments on W. Africa

Thanks. :cool: Of course, they shall be carried over, as I like them too! :p
Oh gee, your name is in that file, isn't it? ;)
What scenario are we talking about? 1520? Although, that even seems a bit high for then.
I was referring not to land tech, but to the land slider setting.
Coastal expansion for Mali depends on whether or not we add another coastal state. Additionally, we have to think about who those territories should go to post Mali's fall as Songhai did not have coastal territories.
Well, right now you have the Mali-capitol moving event, right? We could just have Mali's capitol slide further away from the Songhai, so that they never get fully annexed (by the computer, anyway). Or some of those territories could be ceded to the Fante; either way would work.
The Hausa also did not have coastal territories so Douala wouldn't make sense. That said, I'm in favor of expanding Kongo.
Sounds good. I suppose I'd suggest that Hausa at least knows Douala, so that there is a better chance of some interaction between the Kongo and the rest of West Africa.
Which ones are you referring to?
The ones listed under events for the AGC (never implemented). The ones where the Kongo has interactions with Portugal, and later gets attacks from the PTI interior.
 

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Just an ignorant question: The Tuaregs were a sub-group of the Berbers, right? Were they different/important enough to warrant a culture of their own, in case the Tuareg state is not included (if it was included things would of course be different)?
 

Garbon

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Actually, the EEP had/has a Tuareg state, Timbuktu, so I'd say it'd be nice to keep the culture. Besides that, Sus(FEZ) has Berber culture but it should still have problems if it takes Timbuktu as that was a whole different culture.

I'm going to 'soon' make a run down of the Africa cultures that are unecessary and changes that need to be made (if we add Fante then Ashanti culture should become Akan). Currently some cultures like senegambian aren't used for any states but I have that idea about the Fulani takeover sequences that would need such a culture.
 

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Just to pop in to talk about Ethiopia for a sec..

I think Ethiopia as a unified state is a little wrong, well.. maybe more than a little. I think we should divide it into two, taking but one new tag. Tigray in the north would have Axum and the port of Aseb, Massawa (representing Tigray's vassals, the Bellou Kingdoms) and Issas, representing the port of Zeila and the heartland of Ifat, which Ethiopia, spearheaded in the north by Tigray, had conquered and annexed 5 years before in 1414.
In the south, Shewa would have Shewa of course, and Gonder (though maybe Gonder should be independent?) and Kefa (though Kefa would be a colony, and a small one) and of course, newly conquered Bale, which was taken in that same 1414 war.

This means that while Adel is not as strong as both Shewa and Tigray, individually it is stronger than one of the Ethiopian states by itself. So Ethiopia has to stay united, and Adel without allies, to stay as big dog in the area.

Adel should be allied at this point with Yemen, and it should be set up so Adel + Yemen can hold off Tigray + Shewa at pretty much a stalemate, until the Ottomans can arrive and tip the scales. The Ottomans should really start messing around in the area, invade and seize Massawa, ship arms to Adel, maybe even ally against Ethiopia. Regardless, by 1520 things should be looking pretty dark and dire for the two Ethiopian states, as they are rocked by disunity and surrounded on all sides by enemies.

Oh yes, Adel should have Ogoden, Harer, Afars, and Harerge.