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Huangdi
Jul 8, 2002
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This thread serves as a base for discussing changes that mostly surrounds China, but can extend to cover the entire Far East (since China equals most of the Far East anyway, or until someone opens another country specific thread in the region). A lot of changes will need to be discussed. In order to keep this thread from suffering from overcrowding of information, which tends to deter new-comers, new sub-threads will be created when the time comes to discuss particular major issues.

Current proposals: as at 24 Nov 2002

NATIONS:
Code: 
[color=silver]
    OLD			       NEW
   Manchu		          Manchu-Qing
Chagatai Khanate	       Uighur-Mogolistan
  Vientaine		           Lan Xang
   Assam		            Shan
  Myanmar		        Toungu Myanmar
   Taungu		       Kingdom of Lanna
     -			   Southern Ming
     -			       Shun
     -			       Zhou
[/color][color=coral]     -			        Xi[/color][color=silver]
     -			   Oyrat Mongols[/color]
*The last 5 countries do not appear at the start. Southern Ming, Zhou and Oyrat Mongols r historical revolters, Shun and Xi can gain independence thru revolts normally.
*Some SE Asian nations/revolters to be removed.

BOUNDARIES:

Political
*Vietnam to start off as part of China, with revolt events to simulate its rebellion.
*Moved Chinese capital to 653 (Shanghai).
*Moved Manchu capital to 640 (Nakhodka).
*Various boundary changes implemented. See the following map:
political.jpg


National
*Correspond with political boundaries. Uighur-Mogolistan have shields on 1606 (Sichuan).
*SE Asian nations more complicated.
*Revolter Shun should have revoltable provinces 1558 (Lanzhou), 1560 (Ningxia), 1563 (Shaanxi), 1564 (Henan), 1565 (Hubei), 1567 (Nanchang), 1563 as capital.
*Revolter Xi should have same revoltable provinces as Shun, 1558 as capital.
*Revolter Zhou should have 1553 (Yunan), 1556 (Guizhou) and 1557 (Sichuan Pendi) revoltable provinces, 1556 as capital.

Exploration
*For China, coast of east India, land route to India should be known.
*For Manchu-Qing, northern exploration limit in 1419 should be provinces 609, 611, 632, 1467, 623. Should know most provinces of China.
*Tibet should know all provinces of inland China.

MONARCHS, LEADERS & FLAGS:

Monarchs
*Monarchs and skills should need to be determined or fine tuned for Tibet, Manchu-Qing, China, other revolter and nations.

Leaders
*Tibetan, Manchu-Qing, Chinese and other leaders/explorers and skills need to be determined.

Flags and Shields
*New flags/shields need to be made for Chinese minors, including Manchu-Qing. The current Manchu flag and shield with the dragon should be given to China.

DIPLOMACY:
*Korea, Tibet and Manchu-Qing vassals of China.
*Tweaking initial alliances and relations of Far Eastern nations to guide historical development.
*Further tweaking needed after beta 2 playtests.

CULTURE:
*The cultures are Manchu, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Han, Uighur, Tibetan, Zhuang, Vietnamese, Cham, Khmer, Thai, Mon, Burmanese, Upper Burman, Malay, Javan and Indonesian. See these 2 threads for further info: Far East Culture and Religion , Laotian, Thai and Champan culture setup

RELIGION:
*Religion setup altered, see this thread: Far East Culture and Religion
*Because of raised initial tachs (see below), religion effecting techspeed may need to be further slowed but the degree needs to be playtested. Techspeeds for other non-Christian religions should also be slowed as initial tech r slightly raised.
*Religious modifier effects: morale penalty for Confucianism(-0.10??), increase stability bonus for all non-Christian religions, decrease for Christian religions subject to playtesting. Trade eff penalty for Eastern relgions or bonus for Western religions.

PROVINCES:
*Terrain change proposal: go to New Terrain for the Far East and a more recent one: Far East Culture and Religion
*Manpower changes implemented, some discussions in this thread.
*Goods to be changed so that China have less valuable goods and appear in correct provinces.
*Population and income to be reviewed.
*City names, positions and other attributes to be reviewed.
*Canton port should be situated in province 657 (Kowloon), renamed and repositioned (there is no Hong Kong until 1842).
*A centre of trade should be added in province 657 (Kowloon).

STARTING TECHS & DP:
*China should start with the following tech levels: land 4, naval 5, infra 3, trade 3. Surrounding countries should have 1 lv less, reduce further as u go further from China.
*The following DPs for China: aristocracy = 7, centralization = 9, innovative = 1, mercantilism = 7, offensive = 4, land = 7, quality = 7, serfdom = 8.
*Quality for Japan should be 9, manchu 6 and korea 7.

EVENTS:
*rework the manchu takeover of china so it becomes a coherent series with interesting variances. This includes implementing "Crown of China" events.
*more about the aftermath of the takeover: resistances and rebellions (Wu San Gui/the three protectorates/Zhou and Zheng Cheng Gong/Koxinga in Taiwan are important.
*Crown of China: event to grant any Chinese minor which can control most of China the tag for China. Countries that can become China are Manchu-Qing, Shun, Xi, Zhou, Southern Ming and Korea.
*Crown of China: all possible monarchs will be listed in the Chinese file, event controlling which line of monarchs to reign (whoever inherits the Chinese throne). Leaders may also be slept or waken according to this.
*Events simulating Mongol raids into China throughout history, go to: The Mongol Threat to China
*Confucian structural events to simulate the Confucian international and societal order and to give adequate historical effects on player's choice of strategy. Thus the inward perfection vs outward expansion event is to be abolished. Religious minority rebellion events could come under this.
*Zheng He events should require money payments and have effects mainly related to diplomacy and dp. add the scrapping of the navy event, more events on japanese pirate raids. there should be a link to all these events.
*more events about the corruption and ordeals of the Ming bureaucracy and courts.
*rework the opening of the ports and jesuits events to make the effects more realistic.
*rework the treaty of Narchinsk, go to:
Historical Treaty of Nerchinsk.
*other stuff that people could think of.

Key:
This colour = debatable or not as important.
This colour = concluded or very important.
This colour = implemented.

OK I think I have covered everything.:rolleyes: :confused:
Here we commence the discussions. All opinions welcomed!!:)
 
Last edited:
A long post.
You want to give many provinces in Amur region to China/Mandzuria - so these will be given proper culture and religion. These terrains are now mostly russian - so Russians immgrated there in so huge number or Chinese emigrated?
 
. I like the ideas.More revolters are definetely needed for the chinese hinterland.Its imperative though,that AGC avoids the enormous revolt risks caused by historic events in current EEP and Paradox GC.The events should definetely be retained,their results should be alleviated though.China did not break up that often in reality:) .
 
Originally posted by vilkouak
A long post.
You want to give many provinces in Amur region to China/Mandzuria - so these will be given proper culture and religion. These terrains are now mostly russian - so Russians immgrated there in so huge number or Chinese emigrated?
Click to expand...
Yes, to start with that area was sparesly populated by the Manchus. when the Russians siezed the land in the 1800s, they obviously moved huge amounts of people there to colonise and forced out the original inhabitants. The Stalin Communist era etc obviously greatly boosted the number of people there whether by force or persuasion etc.

Originally posted by vilkouak
. I like the ideas.More revolters are definetely needed for the chinese hinterland.Its imperative though,that AGC avoids the enormous revolt risks caused by historic events in current EEP and Paradox GC.The events should definetely be retained,their results should be alleviated though.China did not break up that often in reality .
Click to expand...
What i had in mind was to have the revolters spring up directly by events when the right time comes (around early 1600). I think it is quite inevitable that Ming China must fall, or we have to make it at least very difficult to hold together. I guess it doesnt neccessarily have to fall apart completely, a possibily of China remaing in the south confronted with a northern dynasty (not being able to inherit China) could also be made possible. Sumthing like a situation of a Manchu-Qing dynasty in the north vs a Chinese Ming dynasty surviving in the south and history could go from there.
 
i agree Korea should be a vassal, but still not too sure about Dai Vet. Bcoz for Dai Vet the situation was that China actually marched troops into Dai Vet and set up an administration there and ruled the area from 1409-1428. i think there is sufficient historic reasons for it to be included in the boundaries of China in 1419. The only concern is for play balance. Obviously we could increase the revolt risk and make events for that area so that it becomes very difficult to hold Vietnam.

As for the techs, since i only proposed slight increase, i think techspeed should only be slowed slightly. The cost to complete the first few levels r so small compared to the higher lv's that this change is probably insignificant later in the game.
 
r those events made by MJK posted anywhere??

Historically, Vietnam gained indepedence through continuous uprisings that pressured the Chinese to finally abandon the area. I believe we could make events for a series of uprisings with increasing costs if u decide the military solution (revolt, revolt risk, money, taxvalue, relations, province manpower etc) and then finally accumulates into a declaration of independence (which should happen AFTER the date the Chinese actually pulled out), then a war of indepence is to be fought, eventually, after China managed to defeat indepence forces, remaining rebellions will gradually subside (probably by 1550) and China will gain real control over Vietnam, but at huge costs.
 
Regarding rebellion and revolt leading to the end of the Ming, while these revolters (Li Zicheng and Zhang Xianzhong in particular) were certainly essential to the Ming collapse, I don't think that EU pays enough attention to the fiscal problems of the late Ming.

In general, I'd say that trade/production/tax income is too high for Ming China (starting after the reign of Yongle). Part of the Ming collapse and general demise was triggered by poor finances. The tax system set up by Yongle was not durable. Further generations rigidly conformed to his antiquated taxes, which generally collapsed as China became more decentralized in the 15th century. On the lower levels, the Ming dynasty relied too heavily on the Gentry for tax collection. By the Ming dynasty, the Gentry (particularly in the more wealthy south) were not as tied to the central bureaucracy as they had been prior to thier general alienation during previous Yuan rule, and they were thus less likely to give the central bureaucracy the proper amount of taxes. Keep in mind that the later Ming dynasty no longer performed census counts. Many gentry took advantage of this by giving the central bureaucracy taxes according to heavily deflated and outdated census numbers, while they pocketed the rest. On the higher levels, eunichs often squandered court wealth.

The end effect was that the Ming dynasty lacked the funds to deal with major rebellions (like Li Zicheng). It would, however, be improper to say that these rebellions were totally unique in character. Their effect was merely amplified by the fact that the Ming rulers no longer had the funds to deal with them. Deng Maoqi's revolt in the mid 1400s was no joke either, but the Ming rulers had the funds to deal with it at that point. Anyway, I vote for events that reflect a financial collapse during the late Ming. This would also help reduce Chinese tech in order to reflect tech stagnation.
 
I just noticed that in the 1773 (Age of Revolutions) scenario, China controls and has CB shields on all of the Chagatai Kaganate.

I don't know anything about this period in Chinese history, but presumably it must have been conquered at some time previously :D

Would an event giving China CB shields on the Chagatai either following conquest or as an excuse to start a war with them make sense? (I'm thinking of something like the Japanese event #3881 "Toyotomi Hideyoshi Plans to Invade Korea" in the second case)
 
From my knowledge under the Manchu Dynasty (name escapes me...) China did go forth and subdue the Chagatai Kaganate. Also with the posts about how China's decentralization during the Ming period led to its fall.... if events show this loss of taxes and such could you prevent the Ming colapse by changing things then? Theoretically from what Ive heard it should work lower centralization = you collapse to Manchu high central = you survive them.
 
Financial problems were certainly essential to Ming collapse. but i'd say decentralisation of tax collection is only one factor leading to the financial problems. I think corruption would definitely have to be the most important factor. In fact Ming was politically the most centralised and autocratic dynasty in Chinese history. The incompetance of the Ming Emperors (other than the first few) led to the rise of many corrupt officials and especially eunuchs. The steep hierarchy of the government system allowed them extract hughe amounts of wealth from the people, causing much turmoil and strife amongst ordinary people. Eventually the system is strained so much that collapse becomes inevitable. Yes, we need to have more events reflecting financial collapse but that in the game that should not be because of decentralisation DP.

By 1773 China has already acquired Xinjiang (1698) and Xizang (Tibet) (1710) from the Juunggar Oyrats, which previously conquered that area from their homeland in western mongolia. the chagatai khanate had ceased to exist for a long time b4 that. thats why i think chagatai khanate shouldnt even be represented in the game. the issue here, i guess, is, how much would giving them CB shields help them conquer that area and whether they should historically get the shields. from the EEP japan thread, i think what was decided was that we shouldnt give them shields in Korea to give them an excuse bcoz the claim was not legitimate enough to let them have it. Here, i also think the most we should do is to give them shields after the conquest.
 
according to my info the Chagatai disappeared after Timur invaded c. 1400 from then on the territory was ruled by clans of local Uzbeks, Uighurs, Kyrgyz and Tadjiks then China pushed the local Uighur rulers (I think) out of Xinjiang and by 1750ish had reached the border of Afghanistan
 
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