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When I played as The Roman/Byz Empire with different mods, I noticed that I feel left out of Europe in the middle part (1500s) of the game. Except for knocking around Venice and watching Austria very closely, I feel that I’m missing an important part of the game. I mean the Protestant reformation was a very significant event in the history of Europe.

I think that some attention should be given to which country in Europe the Roman/Byz Empire is going to align herself with (if any). The R/B Empire would be a major power if she were successful against the OE. Maybe not a first tier country but definitely on a second tier level. Granted the Latin countries wind up hating the Empire by the time she's picked up her cores but wasn’t France allied with protestant countries as a counter balance against Spain & Austria? Heck, I think the French even were friendly to the OE during the 1600s. Since a successful Roman/Byz Empire takes the place of the OE, her main enemy in Europe is Austria. So that would put the R/B Empire in France's camp. Maybe an event where if the R/B Empire wanted to be involved in Europe she would receive a + 350 to relations with France. Make it a D choice in case (doubtful) the R/B Empire AI lives.

There is a need for events, which simulates the R/B Empire interaction with Europe, and it’s politics. Otherwise the R/B Empire player just plods along, picking up provinces while keeping her BBs down. I never went past 1650 because there’s not much to do by then. I can buy good relations with coin but it’s not the same. Some events which would involve the R/B Empire in Europe would be welcome.

I'm not sure about how the Hungarian Inheritance works in MJK but the R/B Empire should at least be involved with that. Also the interaction between the Papal states and the R/B Empire, Russia as the third Rome and the relations between Orthodox and Protestantism (sp).

Just so thoughts. I can (poorly) try to script some events if anyone has any ideas.
 

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Okay, I see politics are boring. How about some good old-fashion revenge? Remember 1204? The event below is a nice “payback” for the 4th Crusade. I originally picked it up way back when as the “Sack of Rome” and made some changes. I’m not sure who to credit for writing the event. I’ve set the ID# high enough where you should be able to copy and paste.



#Sack of Venice#
event = {
id = 199999
trigger = {
control = {province = 370 data = -1}
}
random = NO
country = BYZ
name = "Sack of Venice "
desc = "Having taken Venice it's time to take revenge for our humiliations of the past"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1420 }
offset = 10
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1800 }
style = 2

action_a = {
name = "SACK THE CITY!!!"
command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
command = { type = losemanufactory which = -2 }
command = { type = fortress which = -2 value = -1}
command = { type = population which = 370 value = -30000}
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = -150 }
command = { type = relation which = VEN value = -400 }
command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = SPA value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = POR value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = NAP value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = KNI value = -100 }
command = { type = relation which = GEN value = 100 }
}
}

Cleaned up event and added lost of fortification.
 
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Well the Romans would sack the city anyway, you don't have to give them the order to :D
I mean it was a common practice and part of the atrocities of war, but still I see your point when it comes to the treasury bit, since Venice housed enourmous cultural masterpieces. One could do like "Bring the trophies of war back to Constantinople.". The problem is just what i mentioned above also applies for Genoa, Vienna, Naples, Rome, etc. and also every country should have the chance to get similar events. Anyways, I think if they really wanted revenge, they would have simply burned the whole city and left no building stand.

I agree with what you said about politics, since I'm also a bit bored once I have Anatolia and defeated Mameluks too. Throughout history the Empire was always in a very defensive stance and keen on holding and improving its territory because it was simply sufficient. Conquests were always very fast and often wisely timed expeditions. I do not know in what way 16th and 17th century warfare would change such policies. Maybe we should first agree if Constantinople stays defensive or becomes aggressive in its policies.
 

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The main diffirence being that Venice got rich on the Fourth Crusade.
THe best examples of Byzantine ARchitecture are in Venice, the best example of Byzantine art is in Venice.........Venice took more than it's fair share of things during the Fourth Crusade...
 

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Nicephorus

Thanks for responding. Seeing your user name and calling the R/B Empire Romans I think your sympathies are with Constantinople. Please let me rant just a little bit.
The Venician Doge Enrico Dandolo was directly responsible for the Latin conquest of Constantinople. The Venicians received 3/8ths of the city, very nice trade agreements and was effective in steering the electors into choosing the very plyable Baldwin of Flanders.
( I borrowed that from Norwich). The Venicians could of had one of themselves declared Emperor, but they prefered to work behind the scenes. Also the Venicians stripped Constantinople of alot of valuable treasures.
The main reason why the R/B Empire finally fell to the OE in 1453 was because they received a blow from the 4th Crusade that they would never recover from. The R/B Empire had crisis and bad emperors before but still survived. The 4th Crusade was the begining of the end.

I think on a resurgent R/B Empire's list of things to do, that Venice would be in one of the top spots. It's on mine.

Sack Venice event:
Heck change the cash down to 5. I'm not looking for the cash. Lower all of the Latin countrys relations by -400. Everyone hates the Empire by this time anyway. Maybe drop the city's fortification down a notch instead. ( Is that possible via event? ) Up the population lost to 50,000. The lose manufactory is sweet though. I just like seeing the event when I play. Ahh, paybacks!

Politics:
The R/B Empire used to play enemies off one another. That's politics in a nut shell. Maybe some events could be made to reflect this. Or perhaps a reborn R/B Empire would realize that to avoid the near disaster with the turks (our gamer's timeline), the R/B Empire would have to change their outlook from isolationism to a more pro-active strategy. Kinda like the US after WWII. We could make an master event where choice A or B would either sleep or activate the political interaction outward events. With this the R/B Empire would be able to consider actions with/from/to different nations. The R/B Empire would have to get involved in Europe or else suffer. Not through any ill effects from the choice of none involvement with the political events. The R/B Empire would receive ill effects through her inaction against the Empires enemies. I mean everyone who plays the R/B Empire and ignores Austria winds up having problems with Austria, right? Those lvl 4-5 forts can be a bitch. And don't forget about Austria's generals. Austria always gets involved in Germany and the Netherlands. Maybe a few events giving cash to german/dutch minors for relations. That might seemed predetermined stuff but we should also include a choice of non involvement in the secondary events. I know that I could burn a diplomat and some coin to do the same thing but an event would make it seem I'm not left out of Europe's action.

Alot of times as a resurgent R/B Empire, I see Persia form into a viable nation. Since the R/B Empire and Persia are old enemies, I was thinking about making some events with Persia to add some flavor. No CBs on provinces though. Just CB temps.

Anyone have a opinion on CB provinces for the R/B Empire? I'm conservative myself. Maybe Asia minor, Balklins, Aleppo and Alexandria. Also is there any talk of creating the coptic culture?

Dogface, are you still working on those CB events?

CCR_of_the_Code. Thank you for your support ;).

mud
 
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Haha great response mudder, I like you :D

It just became obvious to me that I did not make my point clear, that is I'm perfectly fine with your event. Since both of us have read Norwich I also completely agree with you that the Fourth Crusade and Manzikert both sealed the Empires fate, although I would give the latter more importance.

Politics: I believe after a reconquest of the old territories (approximately as it was on the death of Basil II.) a policy of consolidation would be of paramount importance (definetely involving army reform in the long term) to the Empire. I also agree with you about Austria, since sooner or later they border each other. We should also come up with some good leaders for the Romans here. BTW, what do you think of extending Konstantinos XI's life a bit, since Charles of Burgundy enjoys this honor too?

Finally, I'm calling them Romans since they called themselves Roman. Its out of question that they were not the ancient Romans, but still they liked it that way and I respect that.

(Sorry had to do this a bit fast as you can clearly see, but didnt want to let you get away with this :D :D )
 

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Nicephorus

You wrote
"Since both of us have read Norwich I also completely agree with you that the Fourth Crusade and Manzikert both sealed the Empires fate, although I would give the latter more importance."

At least after Manzikert, the Empire had the Comnenus' dynasty. After 1204 the Empire was a wheezing wreck. It was just waiting to die. In 1261 you had three or so 'emperors'. It was a real mess. That's why I like MJK's setup with Morea. Wish I could play it again. Downloaded the new file and can't find the exe. I should ask on the bug thread.
I always wanted to create a fantasy scenario where the R/B empire would win at Manzikert. The start date at 1419 would have the Empire at a fairly good position. But the 4th crusade probably wouldn't of happened and the rewriting of 200 years of history is beyond my abilities. Plus it would take away the thrill of beating (with 30+% inflation and after 3 or more tries) the OE.
I wish the guys over in IFU would of finished their mod.

Who's in charge of summiting/compiling Roman events? Do we summit events to them directly, discuss the new events on this thread and choose the ones that everyone agrees to or do we ask MJK himself? Should we concentrate on battle type events and leave the political events alone for now?

Battle type events:
The Mameluks see the resurgent R/B Empire as a threat. (This happens before any MKJ's event that converts asia minor to greek.) The Mameluks have an option which they would spend some coin and activate rebels ie turks in asia minor. Also if we are able to do via event, we could add Mehmet II as a rebel leader.
(Create a sleeper copy of Mehmet with a different ID#. We would have to give him a early deathdate in case the OE revolts and appears. Can't have 2 Mehmets running around!)
Of course this means war. The event would be comparable to the R/B Empire's event around 1424 ish, with the release of the OE Sultan's brother.
I'm not sure that the AGC community would like us adding to another country's events. After all this is fantasy. Maybe instead we could keep it in the R/B empire's events. Instead of war with the Mameluks, the empire would get a temp CB plus bad relations.

Another event could happen after the R/B empire controls Eygpt. We could have an uprising of the Copts. Some rebels and maybe a stab hit. Of course leave the provs as arabic. It would just be Copts revolting.
Didn't also the Syrians had different beliefs then the Orthodox church concerning the nature of Christ? The AGC event which give the syrian culture could be changed. Give the player a choice of tolerating the syrian's beliefs, gain the syrian culture but receive RR and a stab hit. If the player goes with refusing the concessions the syrian rebels appear.

A fair amount of Empire military leaders were Armenian. We could change the AGC Armenian culture event to include some sleeper leaders. But if an Empire player chooses the leader option then the Armenians would revolt and try to form a nation at a later date.

Sorry about all the rebellion events. I'm in a middle of a game fighting rebels. I broke one of my rules. ALWAYS go narrowminded!

I think that MJK wouldn't mind changing some of his R/B empire events as long as the requested changes are balanced, sensible and we can always ask nicely! :D

Nicephorus
you wrote
"BTW, what do you think of extending Konstantinos XI's life a bit, since Charles of Burgundy enjoys this honor too?"
In my "borrowed from everyone" personal R/B empire mod, I've changed his deathdate to 1463. I read somewhere that he was in his late 40s when he died. He should be able to live to his late 50s. Being the Emperor, he should be able to afford the best heath care money can buy!

(Sorry had to do this a bit fast as you can clearly see, but didnt want to let you get away with this :):) )
Didn't mean any offence towards you Nicephorus. I tend to ramble and my Engish usage isn't the greatest!
It looks like we are in the same boat with the Empire. You steer while I paddle!;)

mud
 

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Ok so lets say 1465 as a deathdate then, to make it a good date.
I like that bit about Mehmed II. as a rebel leader in case the Ottomans are driven back, since Constantine was Mehmeds nemesis and the other way around.
I think we should come to the religious things (other orthodox peoples) later. Lets make some short outline of the history first. Assuming that the Ottomans lost their territories in the west plus the Romans set foot on anatolian soil and maybe even got back their CoT, don't you think we should start with a grand state reform, plus an army reform?
The latter should in my opinion (at least in the description) involve the use of artillery, maybe creating a similar developement as for the French cavalry+artillery tactics used from 1429 onwards.
Or do you think reforms should start even before the Ottomans are removed from the map?

(Again, this is just brainstorming, I suppose we can come to the details later ;) )
 

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Nicephorus
I'm don't think the rebel sleeper copy of Mehmet is going to work. We have to put him in as a country's military leader and if the country is not at war with the Empire, Mehmet probably would have a white flag. Also we would be messing in another country's paperwork. We should try and keep all of the changes in the Empire’s events.

I’m not sure that having a startdate and deathdate for certain events is a good idea. A player might have a bad game. We could set the event trigger to the size of the Empire. The first event could be when the empire reaches 5-6 provs. The Roman Empire is re-born event. Centralization could go up a point or two. Relations could go up or down for certain countries. Maybe the tax rate would go up in Constantinople. Then we could have events for the military. There is some very well written military events scripted by either Driftwood or Idiot boy, but the military events are used in the EEP.

Earlier in this thread, I saw some good ideas. Reestablishing the Roman Senate would be a nice flavor event. Bump up Centralization a point. Cost some coin.


So is the sacking of Venice event a go? I’m going to drop the cash down to 100d. Also I think that GEN would get a positive relation score with the Empire from this event. GEN and VEN didn’t like each other too much.

mud
 

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You have a green light for "Sack of Venice" event from me. The first fruit of our labors ;)

Back to the Roman Empire reborn event: What do you actually think of making a seperate event for the rebuilding of Constantinople? It's decline was not only due to the loss of the eastern territories but especially because slowly Venice and Genoa took control of it's navy and acquired key locations like Galata (which basically took away all the trade revenues that belonged to Constantinople). This is also what Norwich wrote. So evidently such an event that assumes an aggressive rebuilding of Constantinople as one of the greatest cities of the world would also assume that the Romans take Galata, all in all it would worsen relations to the Italian city states and maybe even create war. Maybe this can be handled differently but my whole impression of the "revival idea" is that the Empire experiences a short chain of highly important events and leaders that simply revive it :D . I don't think that if it happened in actual history it would be a process of a century but rather of some decades. Purely hypothetical of course ;)
 

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I like the idea of an Ottoman revolution in the late 15th/early 16th century if Constantinople manages to do away with the Ottomans entirely. Perhaps we could even call them the Young Turks, or somesuch.

The Ottomans certainly didnt lack for good leaders at the time and its hardly likely that these great men would take being conquered lying down. It should be possible to set up some form of increasing revolt risk over a period of some 50-60 years - ala the Dutch Revolts, or France's War of Religion wherein the Romans face an increasingly united Turkish rebellion in Anatolia.

If the Romans manage to keep the rebellions under control then hey - great! The territories quiet down (well, become quieter), and the Ottomans are truly beaten (at least until the 18th century or so when nationalism truly begins to rear its ugly head), if not - the Ottomans reform - and gain some very serious CB's on the Romans.

Obviously, certain existing events could be modified to increase/decrease the revolt risk - choosing to work with the Turks should lower it, and running them into the hills is fairly obviously going to anger them somewhat.

With Mehmed, Bayezid, and Suleyman there should be enough 'character' for a series of events lasting from say - the 1480s through 1580s - assuming that the Ottomans are eliminated by 1480. Which doesnt strike me as impossible for a determined player.
 

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Nicephorus

I spoke before checking! MJK has a pretty nice revival event. See below. (I hacked it up. Do not use!) I like it because the event is tied into the country size instead of control of certain provinces. It can be a real bitch when Sweden owns one of your provs that you need to activate the event. It happens once in a while. :) MJK also has an event where the R/B Empire receives a cot after the OE is eliminated.


#MKJ(?)
event = {id = 80300
owned = {province = 357 AKA Constantinople
countrysize = 6
random = no
country = BYZ
name = "The Empire's Revival"
desc = "Constantinople was largely depopulated because of the numerous wars and the decline of the Roman Empire, and so Constantinople was almost a ghost town during the early 15th century. Through a number of desperately needed actions however, the empire has managed to hold on, and claw back some of its lost lands, enough that those who fled from Constantinople earlier returned to their homes, and a sense of normalcy returned to the Roman Empire."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1610 }
action_a = {
name = "Long live the Empire!"
command = { type = inherit which = U09 }AKA Morea
command = { type = population which = 357 value = 100000 }
command = { type = provincetax which = 357 value = 10 }
command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }

MJK has some very nice, first 50 years, the Empire gets back on her feet, events. Reunionification (sp) of the various "Roman Empires", deciding the fate of the Turk citizens, etc.
We should work on events that would happen after the Empire is viable. 1500s and on. After the demise of the OE. Maybe add some leaders through armenian events and also some flavor events.
A Roman senate flavor event would be easy to do. Just need a flowery description.
I should of checked the AGC events before ponficating:D
 

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Von Bek

MKJ has an event where after the OE is defeated, the R/B empire has the option of obtaining the turk culture or driving the turks out of asia minor. Maybe if the Empire decides to receive the turk culture the turks could rebel at a latter date. If the Empire decides to drive them out, the turks would revolt a while later but not too many rebels because of being a small minority. The thing is that in 1.07 rebels can be a real pain!

This could be a nice counter balance to the Empire receiving a "freebie" culture. If the Empire chooses to accept the turks culture there could be a RR effect for a number of years. ( Reflecting the Greek nobles, clergy, citizens displeasure of the government's action). There could be some events having sporatic (sp) turk rebellions till a certain date.

People complain about BYZ receiving 5-6 cultures. This might sooth the waters. Myself I just want two cultures. Greek and ARABIC.:D

The thing about working with the turks would lower the RR is that the greek nobles, clergy and citizens might have a problem accepting the turks. I mean in our fanasty timeline, the turks almost destroyed the R/B Empire. There is bound to be hard feeling both ways. Plus the turks will remember when they were powerful in asia minor.

The MJK's turk culture event should have a third option of "Do nothing" if the RR is added. We don't want to force the player into a pre-determined history
 

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Nicephorus

I'll write up a senate event. +1 to cent, cost some coin. Question though. Should the player receive a stab hit because of unrest if the option is declined? Don't want to make it too big, this is just a minor flavor event. Also how are we going to trigger it? Maybe through # of owned provinces.

Okay, it's the early 1500s. The OE has been defeated. Constantinople has been rebuilt. (Maybe an event where the Empire could receive an art manufactory in Constantinople). Constantinople has a COT. The minor Roman "empires" have been assimilated. Everyone hates the reborn Empire:D. What's next? The Empire could go east and claim Armenia. With the armenian culture event the empire could receive some sleeper leaders. Trouble is in R/L the Empire tried to go west while ignoring asia minor. A BYZ player tend to go east because it's easier!

Maybe we can go step by step. First things first. How about an event where the Empire gets a art manufactory in Constantinople? How can we justify that?
Maybe we could work on some fantasy leaders, too. Just some thoughts.
 

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Originally posted by mudder

Maybe we can go step by step. First things first. How about an event where the Empire gets a art manufactory in Constantinople? How can we justify that?
Maybe we could work on some fantasy leaders, too. Just some thoughts.
I wrote a whole slew of fantasy leaders back in the days of me being active on the EEP. Should still be there deep down somewhere.:)
 

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Von Bek

15th century Anatolia was not completely Turkish. They invaded the country in the first place, and only to some extent they drove out the natives. I'm not so sure and I will try to look this up again. My point is just that I don't think chances for a rebellion on a big scale are so high. Plus I think a man is not born to be a leader but through a certain event becomes a leader. Only because OE had good leaders in actual history we shouldn't take it for granted that these leaders still rise whatsoever. Maybe Mehmed II. would have become a great farmer instead of being the Conquerer of Constantinople if the Romans had turned the tide. :D

mudder

I know MKJ's events pretty good, still I thought we could go more into detail there. About the manufactury: There is actually no way to justify it. If we assume a resettlement of Constantinople, plus rising importance again thru trade etc., one could argue that the whole cultural bit that had existed in Con gets back in (->manufactury) as a centre of the world. But there are also other states then that would deserve this but don't get it. In the 16th century there would loads of room to justify it, especially if Con then becomes superior to Genoa and Venice, but then the player has already built one anyway.
About the Senate: I'm just asking myself why an Emperor, whose lineage has just defeated the OE and retaken Anatolia and the old territories, plus possibly has a world-class army behind him, why should he reestablish a senate? Why not keep things centralized and not share power in any way?

And about the leaders: I always invented John of Nicaea (1474-1519) (1/6/4/5/1), a Greek by birth of course ;)
 

CCR_of_the_Code

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Actually, Nicephorus holds back- Dulkadir, Trabizon, Adana should all be Armenian. I can bring up all kinds of evidence that says same.
Also, it is unrealistic to give Thrace Turkish culture. I think Sunni Greek is more accurate.
 

Mike von Bek

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mudder: Thats the exact event I was thinking of - a trigger for the whole thing, if you will. And I agree it would be nice if the Romans had to suffer a little to gain that Turkish culture - it shouldnt be so easy for them - the two were major foes, and there would have been a lot of bad feelings between conquered and conquerors. I dont think that the Greeks would have as pleasant to live under as the Ottomans were, either.

Nicepherous: I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of the period is sketchy, so by all means - feel free to ignore. I think that if the Romans drove the Turks into the hills though, that you'd get a lot of ill-feeling developing, and rebellions of some kind breaking out. I can see a massive rebellion because Im thinking along religious lines - the Moslems just would not be comfortable living under the Orthodox cross, and Ive no doubt the Romans would make the Moslems suffer for their past transgressions.

Motly what Im trying to do is make the Roman player suffer to gain the Turkish culture, much as the Austrian/Spanish/French/Burgundian player had to suffer to gain Dutch.

Id agree that leaders arent born, but failing those men - Im sure others would have risen to have led our 'Young Turk' rebellion. So we may as well use them.

I just love the idea of Mehmed II as some wily old 'Desert Fox' rebel leader. It just feels... right.
 

unmerged(8877)

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Idiotboy

I found and copied your leaders and I am using them for my personal use. They were WAY back there! Good stuff, well balanced. I also copied alot of the events that were posted there but never used by EEP. That's where I got the idea of sacking Venice. The event was originally "Sack of Rome". I gladly give credit to the scripter of the event.
Do we have permisssion to use your leaders? We might not be able to get them all included! Lots of good (and bad) leaders!

mud
 

unmerged(8877)

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Nicephorus/CCR_of_the_Code

The thing is that everything we do with BYZ will be looked at with a jaundiced eye. That's why we shouldn't modify another country's files or starting position. ( Too bad, I saw some good ideas concerning Russia). After all the R/B empire is a dead empire. Why bother. We would have to move mountains to change the OE starting position concerning provinces' culture and religion. The AI OE is weak enough without us changing things. Esp 1.07. That means we have to use Paradox's (canon) set-up. We could change the cultures/religions through events though. MJK has the "expell the turks" event where greek AND armenian cultures are put in place of turkish culture. And the turks would still receive the leaders if the OE reformed from rebellions. But if the majority of the asia minor provinces are still turk (gamewise, Paradox canon), I think that the turks would of rebelled against the Empire after a time.


mud