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nelly644

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Come on, we all want some fantasy events for Byzantium. Although MKJ has made a few, they are mainly just handing out CB shields and cultures.
What I propose is to make a set of fantasy events that deal more with DP settings, relations with other nations, etc. Like other nations have.

Any comments?
 

unmerged(5822)

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Well, they better look out for the fantasy mongols...;)
 

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Hi, I'm kind of new here, but would like to express a few ideas. I agree that Byzantium needs a few more events in the grand campaign. It's terribly boring to play 400 years with 2 events while Austria, France, Ottoman Empire, etc are having great major events all the time. Still, since any event after 1453 for Byzantium would be "fantasy" (as you call it here), it's hard to come up with plausible events. So my idea is to start by simply including Byzantium in on some of the events already in the game. For example, when Austria inherits Hungary, script a simple event for Byzantium's reaction (giving a CB or relations drop or something). Or, include Byzantium in the Pragmatic Sanction event. What do you think?
 

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Definate start. Also these fantasy events shouldnt just happen "past 1453" they should happen when the empire increases in size if that is 1421 or 1801 so be it. But the reaction of Byzantine to say the Protestant Reforms would be interesting.
 

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Originally posted by wookiee25
Hi, I'm kind of new here, but would like to express a few ideas. I agree that Byzantium needs a few more events in the grand campaign. It's terribly boring to play 400 years with 2 events while Austria, France, Ottoman Empire, etc are having great major events all the time. Still, since any event after 1453 for Byzantium would be "fantasy" (as you call it here), it's hard to come up with plausible events. So my idea is to start by simply including Byzantium in on some of the events already in the game. For example, when Austria inherits Hungary, script a simple event for Byzantium's reaction (giving a CB or relations drop or something). Or, include Byzantium in the Pragmatic Sanction event. What do you think?
That is exactly the type of thing I had in mind! And perhaps a civil war at a weak monarch, or a reform at a strong monarch, etc.

Originally posted by Ivan the Mad
Definate start. Also these fantasy events shouldnt just happen "past 1453" they should happen when the empire increases in size if that is 1421 or 1801 so be it. But the reaction of Byzantine to say the Protestant Reforms would be interesting.
MKJ has made some events for giving out extra CB shields and cultures when the Empire reaches a certain size, or controls a certain province. Look in AGC/Events/Byzantium.txt for all the existing events
 

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One event that occurs to me is to decide which Archbishop has more power. Lets say Byzantium controls Constantinople & Jerusalem - and has stayed Orthodox and converted Jerusalem to the 'True Faith'. So - which archbishop is the more dominant? Which one is the equivalent of the Pope?

And maybe a third event for when (not if) Byzantium conquers Rome - who then is the dominant power?

If the Union of Churches leads to Byzantium being Catholic perhaps set in motion a similar event wherein Byzantium says "Screw the Pope - we own Jerusalem! Constantinople is the true City of God!" Etc, etc.

Or possibly a truly bizarre event wherein if you conquer the Ottomans and the Mamelukes, the majority of your nation is now Turkish and Muslim, and you could actually have the Byzantium empire being Sunni Muslims!
 

LlywelynII

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Hi people

I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I just wanted to remind everyone of an event that Basileus brought up for EEP that they didn't use because (IMO) it kicks ass :D

"Has there been a "reunification of Christendom" event proposed yet? This would be a reversal of the Great Schism, a perhaps utopian solution to letting the Byzantines be happy with a form of Orthodoxy (the Pope reverts to the "first among equals", as in pre 11th century status.

Trigger: Byzantium has +100 or greater relations with ALL Catholic and Orthodox countries (does not matter the reltions with other relgions), and +170 or greater relations with the Papacy, Bad Boy rating no greater than 3, has expelled the Turks from Europe and Anatolia, and has liberated the Holy Land. It will then not appear that the Byzantines are asking for a reconciliation for security reasons.

If the relations with the Pope drop to lower than 150, the Pope calls off the Synod (the schismatics are not yet ready for unification); also if the stability for the Byzantines drops to -1 or lower, then the government had lost enough moral standing to lead the conference in the eyes of the Orthodox faithful, or something of that nature.

Here is a suggestion how it might go.

A. End of the Great Schism
1. Agreed. It has gone on for too long. (+10 relations with Papacy, go to event B.)
2. Forget it! Let the Schismatics in Rome burn! (nothing)

B. Where shall the Synod be held?
1. Convene the Synod in Constantinople. (-10 relations with Papacy (Pope is annoyed), +1 stability (government looks strong))
2. Allow the Pope to host the conference in Rome. (+10 relations with Papacy (Pope is grateful), -1 stability (government looks weak))
3. Ask a neutral state to host the synod, such as Venice, Cologne, or Florence. (+50 relations with the state (state gets large prestige), -1 stablity (government looks weak, asking barbarians for aid))

C. The Status of the Emperor
1. The Emperor remains Christ's Vicar on Earth and Equal to the Apostles. (+1 stability, -10 relations with Pope, -100 relations with whichever state is the seat of the Holy Roman Empire)
2. The Emperor is merely the ruler of the Eastern part of Christendom. (-1 stability, large revolt risk in any Western provinces, +50 relations with whichever state is the seat of the Holy Roman Empire)

D. The status of the Pope
1. Universal Head of Christendom. (+100 relations with Pope, +50 relations with Catholic countires, -50 relations with Protestant and Reformed countries, -50 relations with Orthodox countires, -1 stability (challenged Emperor's authority, as well as the other Orthodox bishops)
2. First among equals. (-20 relations with Pope, -10 relations with Catholic countires, +20 relations with Orthodox countries)
3. Just another Bishop, no greater than another. (-100 relations with Papacy, -100 relations with Catholic countires, +100 relations with Orthodox countires)

E. Toleration of Heretics
1. The Protestant heretics shall feel the wrath of the Romans! (-150 relations with all Protestant and Reformed countires, +150 relations with Counter-reformed Catholic nations, +100 relations with Catholic nations)
2. Let them find their own ways to Hell. (-20 relations with Catholics (dashed expectations of Byzantine support), +20 relations with Protestants and Reformed (they are relived they will not be persecuted in Byzantium))

F. Seat of Christendom
1. Let it be Rome! (-1 stability (important clergymen leaving Constantinople for Rome), +1 tax base to Rome
2. Let it be Constantinople! (+1 stability, +1 tax base to Thrace, -1 stability for Papacy

If the Byzantines and Papacy manage to agree on these, Byzantium and the Papacy each get +1000 VPs (Christendom is reunified, after all), but another event is held... It is not over yet!

G. Confirmation of the Synod (All Orthodox nations get this, aside from Byzantium)
1. It shall be so. Let us all be in communion again (+10 relations with Byzantium and Papacy, -1 stability (conservatives annoyed))
2. Never! The Emperor has sinned against the True Faith! (-200 relations with Byzantium and Pope)

Hope this can help a bit! Feel free to make suggestions."

I think the "Seat of Christendom" bit needs to go (if you don't let the pope ~think~ he's in charge (eg. D), the synod's over) and there needs to be one of these suckers for the filioque bit. We may not care about it, but ~they~ did :rolleyes:

If this gets included and (miraculously for the AI, or after a few decades of trying for us) happens, it's up in air whether it would go Orthodox or Catholic.

For orthodoxy, you have the fact that unified Christendom would be more traditional and focused (not to say full of itself). It would keep them from going Protestant (which likely wouldn't've happened in this event)

On the other hand, if the patriarchs were suddenly taking their orders from Rome, who's to say they wouldn't've started handing out Bibles in the vernacular and teaching their flock those catchy Lutheran hymns :D

What do y'all think?

I would love for there to be some event like this, however ahistorical (The empire didn't survive, one; and two, likely would've never spent the time cultivating the relationship with the West implied by the triggers).

jay.
 

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Tell you what: I for one wouldn't mind seeing the "Byzantine Reformation" event. :D

Imagine trying to hold the Empire together when some stay Catholic, some revert to the Orthodox way of their grandfathers, some join the Protestant cause, and a province or two even becomes reformed. When you add in the Muslim provinces you haven't converted yet that's going to be one crazy religion slider. :D ;)
 

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*sigh*

1.
On the other hand, it would mean poor Byzantium would ~never~ be able to get rid of its serfdom ;). It [Proddy Greece] seems likelier now that I've read that one of the Patriarchs was actually a closet Calvinist, and another was in correspondence with Melancthon and some of the other Protestants: if a renewed Empire had kept them in closer touch with the west, Protestantism might've made more of an impact than it could under the Turks. And if the Emperor finally started secularizing a little... :D

2.
Another event to add into that - I just learned this skimmin' the Patriarchate website - is the "azyma." Apparently, the Orthodox church thinks the West's use of unleavened bread is just a little too Jewish for comfort.

I say, set it up as a compromise with an added filioque and yeasty bread, with some massive revolts on the side. Does EEP or AGC have the Russian event where 10000 Russian Orthodox let themselves be martyred rather than make the cross with two fingers instead of the three they were used to? (or was it the other way around...):p

Weird age, this game is set in...

3.
Speaking of which, has anyone been brave enough to put in pogrom random events? They would be triggered by narrowmindedness and intolerant DP/Religious settings - you as the enlightened 20th c. person you are could oppose your people's bigotry, at the cost of massive destabilization for being so evil as supporting "Christ's killers".

At the very least, it would remind people why getting to 0 innovation and leaving it there would've been a BAD thing to live through.

4.
Ditto "witch hunts" come the 1600s. I know they think it was LSD in the grain supply now, but at least part of it has to be thinking that there were demonic forces out there in the first place.

5.
On the brighter side of intolerance, one thing that might've happened (assuming a massively innovative, massively tolerant regime that just converted the Holy Land away from Islam) - is a return from the diaspora. Again with the instability and zeitgeisty prejudice, but one of the main sources of Polish & Dutch economic power were all the Jews who had been expelled from their neighbors' kingdoms. Zionism wasn't really a driving factor until the 19th c., I know, so someone with more knowledge here tell me how realistic this would be.

I would think that assuming the right kind of state got established over a few decades/centuries, they could've been approached by a Jewish delegation more than a little tired of their Exodus (effects? I dunno... added tax base, higher loans, increased revolt risk in Judea...).

jay.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If "there can be no church without the emperor",
what the hell's been taking my tithes all these years?
 

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Originally posted by Llywelyn
On the other hand, it would mean poor Byzantium would ~never~ be able to get rid of its serfdom. ;) It [Proddy Greece] seems likelier now that I've read that one of the Patriarchs was actually a closet Calvinist, and another was in correspondence with Melancthon and some of the other Protestants: if a renewed Empire had kept them in closer touch with the west, Protestantism might've made more of an impact than it could under the Turks. And if the Emperor finally started secularizing a little... :D
Closet Calvinists? Private Protestants? Sounds fascinating! Where'd you read that? That could provide some interesting background 'flavour' for my eventual AAR.
 

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Byzantium always starts off heavily decentralised, en-serfed and aristocratic. Basically you have a bunch of petty robber-barons styling themselves as dukes of the realm lording over the masses and paying lip service to a powerless emperor in distant Constantinople.

How about a series of events wherein the Emperor tries to regain his power - increasing centralisation, angering the aristocrats. Possibly a revolution? Aristocrats trying to overthrow the emperor? Revoltrisk increased in states dramatically as the nobles enflame the serfs against the 'mad dictates of the Emperor'?

5-6 events covering a period of some 50 years at the end of which Byzantium is a highly centralised state, possibly with a balance between aristocrats and a plutocracy, and a freer population?

Would be nice as pure flavour, Im thinking. And of course, the Emperor could choose to leave the state as is. The advantages of a highly stable state arent to be denied.
 

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Originally posted by Von Bek
Byzantium always starts off heavily decentralised, en-serfed and aristocratic. Basically you have a bunch of petty robber-barons styling themselves as dukes of the realm lording over the masses and paying lip service to a powerless emperor in distant Constantinople.

How about a series of events wherein the Emperor tries to regain his power - increasing centralisation, angering the aristocrats. Possibly a revolution? Aristocrats trying to overthrow the emperor? Revoltrisk increased in states dramatically as the nobles enflame the serfs against the 'mad dictates of the Emperor'?

5-6 events covering a period of some 50 years at the end of which Byzantium is a highly centralised state, possibly with a balance between aristocrats and a plutocracy, and a freer population?

Would be nice as pure flavour, Im thinking. And of course, the Emperor could choose to leave the state as is. The advantages of a highly stable state arent to be denied.
I like this idea. With a trigger perhaps that OE doesn't exist?
 

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Re: *sigh*

Originally posted by Llywelyn
3.
Speaking of which, has anyone been brave enough to put in pogrom random events? They would be triggered by narrowmindedness and intolerant DP/Religious settings - you as the enlightened 20th c. person you are could oppose your people's bigotry, at the cost of massive destabilization for being so evil as supporting "Christ's killers".

At the very least, it would remind people why getting to 0 innovation and leaving it there would've been a BAD thing to live through.

4.
Ditto "witch hunts" come the 1600s. I know they think it was LSD in the grain supply now, but at least part of it has to be thinking that there were demonic forces out there in the first place.
I like the idea of a witch hunt random event. Would this be for everyone, only Europeans, or even just Byzantium?
 

Guinnessmonkey

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Re: *sigh*

Originally posted by Llywelyn
5.
On the brighter side of intolerance, one thing that might've happened (assuming a massively innovative, massively tolerant regime that just converted the Holy Land away from Islam) - is a return from the diaspora. Again with the instability and zeitgeisty prejudice, but one of the main sources of Polish & Dutch economic power were all the Jews who had been expelled from their neighbors' kingdoms. Zionism wasn't really a driving factor until the 19th c., I know, so someone with more knowledge here tell me how realistic this would be.

I would think that assuming the right kind of state got established over a few decades/centuries, they could've been approached by a Jewish delegation more than a little tired of their Exodus (effects? I dunno... added tax base, higher loans, increased revolt risk in Judea...).
IMHO any ahistorical zionism events are a can of worms that we just don't want to open. That and I'm not so sure that so much of the diaspora was because of Islamic rule in Judea. Most of it was because of Christian rule. Remember it was the Crusaders, not the Arabs, who put all the Jews in Jerusalem to the sword. Similarly Herac_lius, upon retaking Jerusalem from the Persians, broke his word to the local Jews and slaughtered many of them. I doubt many would be flocking to the Byzantine banner.
 

Orange Mauritz

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Pogrom and witch hunt would (IMHO) be excellent additions to the random event set.


-Trivial Detail-

The LSD comes from a parasitic fungus that grows on rye during moist summers, and has LSD-like effects when eaten by humans. Not only the visions of witches but also exstatic preaching by some heretics were supposedly caused by it. Perhaps the witch hunts could include a season trigger (is that possible? )
 

LlywelynII

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About those Calvinists

I just got it from the web (pinches some salt), but
at least it was from the Ecu. Patriarch's website:
www.patriarchate.org

Apparently, Byz kept its relations slider with Rome
pretty damn low until the early 20th c., but couldn't
quite bring itself to accept ~all~ the heresies involved
with Protestantism.

Some quotes:
"In the case of the Protestants, relations were generally better because Orthodox theologians saw their churches as a movement of reforming Roman Catholicism by returning to principles and ideas that were common during the first centuries of a united Christian Church. In fact, for a time, certain Patriarchs had come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy and Protestantism could be united. But this aim was not achieved and the theological disputes continued, sometimes connected to political undertones."

-http://www.patriarchate.org/Patriarhal_history_ANA_src
(Alternate history? If Byz. builds closer ties with the Proddies
than Rome, it could set this event off? Heh, talk about *really*
pissing off the HRE: Half your states just declared for the
Orthodox...)

"Two of the most striking patriarchs during this period of Turkish domination were Jeremiah II of the sixteenth century and the famous Cyril Lukaris of the seventeenth. Jeremiah was patriarch during the early period of the Protestant Reformation; indeed, several of the Protestant reformers, notably the nephew of Reuchlin, Melancthon, hoped to reach an understanding with the Orthodox East now that they too had broken with Rome. Melancthon, therefore, sent the Lutheran profession of faith he had drawn up to Jeremiah in Constantinople, expecting approval from the Orthodox patriarch. But Jeremiah, far from approving, sent back a letter condemning a number of the new Protestant beliefs. He was against the Lutheran belief in the "real presence" in Holy Communion. He also condemned the Lutheran belief in justification by faith alone and affirmed the need for "good works" as well as God's grace in human salvation. Nevertheless, Jeremiah did engage in friendlier exchanges with various Protestant groups and welcomed to Constantinople (often in secret) certain Westerners with whom he had instructive conversations and carried on a lively correspondence.

Cyril Lukaris, the famous Cretan patriarch of the seventeenth century, is often accused of seeking covertly to "Protestantize" the Orthodox Church. During his studies in western Europe, he had come into contact with Protestant Calvinist ideas. And when later he became Patriarch of Constantinople, he extended his favor to Protestant envoys in Constantinople. In 1629, there was published in Geneva a Confession of Faith attributed to Patriarch Cyril and which unequivocally expressed Calvinist beliefs. Cyril himself as an individual may well have been attracted by certain Calvinist beliefs, but that he wished to impose these beliefs on the Orthodox Church is doubtful. In any event, the Geneva Confession of Faith (whose attribution to Cyril many of his own clerical associates denied) was condemned as heretical by several local Orthodox councils subsequently held in the East.

It should not be overlooked that one of Cyril's primary aims was to enlighten and uplift the educational level of his clergy and flock, which in the sixteenth and early seventeenth century had sunk to an extremely low point because of the long Turkish oppression. Aside from the patriarchal school in Constantinople, the Turks by now permitted almost no other school on the Greek main land. The only schools in fact that were operating in what we to day call "Greece" were those schools in the Greek areas then under Venetian domination, such as in Crete, Corfu, or the Ionian Islands. Lukaris had constantly to be wary of his volatile Turkish masters who in fact removed him from office several times, only to reinstate him again and again. He finally died a martyr's death of strangulation at the hands of the Turks. Out of his attempts to educate his Orthodox flock resulted the foundation of the Greek printing press in Constantinople."

-http://www.patriarchate.org/book/Fourth_period_Tourkokratia


Off-topic:
His current All Holiness Bart I also got his own Congressional Medal of Honor. Makes a great gift :D : http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/medals/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=medal&ID=9 (four years before John Paul's!).
 

Mike von Bek

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Thats fantastic stuff Llywelyn, cheers! I'll steal that link, too.

It looks to me like we could quite easily build an event out of this - ala the earlier Orthodox/Catholicism choice for the Byzantium empire to change to Protestant religion.

Set it in 1629 with the publication of the Confession of Faith - the player can either choose to remain Orthodox, or go Protestant - a union of the faiths, so to speak. Or we could set it in between the 'reigns' of the Patriarchs, Jeremiah and Cyril. If relations with Protestant countries reach a certain point, spring the event?

What would be some of the outcomes of changing? Catholic countries relations go down, Protestant countries go way up (the Roman Empire is behind us! Yay!)

Course, we all know what comes next: Protestant Jerusalem!
 

unmerged(255)

ho Mixobarbaros
Aug 27, 2000
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How about including some events that would involve 'Byzantine Balkans?' If under the rule of Constantinople, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania should be quite difficult to control. As it stands right now, Byzantine Empire has Greek and Slavonic cultures and share the same faith with these regions, making the prospect of rebellions against Constantinople quite unlikely...
 

unmerged(8523)

zzzz... zzzz...
Apr 2, 2002
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Originally posted by tuna
How about including some events that would involve 'Byzantine Balkans?' If under the rule of Constantinople, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania should be quite difficult to control. As it stands right now, Byzantine Empire has Greek and Slavonic cultures and share the same faith with these regions, making the prospect of rebellions against Constantinople quite unlikely...
i'd prefer to make it event driven with revolt risk:

option_a: constantinople allows country |x| to have its own autocephalous church

option_b: constantinople says country |x| is bound to its church

(a gross simplification of what several of those wars were about)