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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Aug 15, 2008
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gaiasabre11 Indeed you can. But as said, the Invincible was a nifty carrier for her time.

Yup, I do admit the Invincible is a very capable ship. ;) But it might be different if she was facing an opponent with multiple, not just a few, Exocets, though it goes the same for the Clemenceau I guess if she was in the same situation. :p
 

El Pip

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Yup, I do admit the Invincible is a very capable ship. ;) But it might be different if she was facing an opponent with multiple, not just a few, Exocets, though it goes the same for the Clemenceau I guess if she was in the same situation. :p
Indeed, even at top 'Run Away' speed no French ship could out run an Exocet, and if running away doesn't work that's the big book of French tactics entirely exhausted. :p
 

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Indeed, even at top 'Run Away' speed no French ship could out run an Exocet, and if running away doesn't work that's the big book of French tactics entirely exhausted. :p

As opposed to the Royal Navy. The term "Royal Navy never runs away" was the reason why the Nelsons had no rear turrets, as they were never needed.
ja.gif
 
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El Pip

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As opposed to the Royal Navy. The term "Royal Navy never runs away" was the reason why the Nelsons had no rear turrets, as they were never needed.
My current read is the quite outstanding;

The Command of the Ocean: A Naval History of Britain, 1649-1815

Having worked it's way upto the execution of Byng in 1757, "pour encourager les autres", the book is moving onto the ascent of British naval dominance in the decades that followed. One particular bit of reasoning caught my eye, while the dominance was as much built on superior ship building, advances in administration and victualling and a dozen other facets slowly built up, the execution of Byng firmly established for RN captains that the only guaranteed fatal option was not engaging at all.

Hence the famed aggressiveness which translated into a psychological edge, whenever you sighted the Red Ensign you knew you were going to be engaged (barring the most overwhelming odds or luck) almost as soon as possible. Many a battle was lost before it started because the enemy Admiral surrendered the initiative to the Royal Navy, if you expect to lose you probably will.

All this is a very long way of saying I'm in an especially navally patriotic mood tonight. :D
 
Aug 15, 2008
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As opposed to the Royal Navy. The term "Royal Navy never runs away" was the reason why the Nelsons had no rear turrets, as they were never needed.

Well, guess what, the Richelieu also had no rear (main gun) turrets, and she packs more of a punch then the Nelsons (in terms of shell weight per min able to deliever to opponent). Below is my calculations:

equation: # of guns * shell weight (lbs) * 60s / fire cycle (s)

Richelieu: 8 * 1949 * 60 / 32 = 29235 lbs

Nelson: 9 * 2048 * 60 / 38 = 29103 lbs

Yeh, the Richelieu won despite the Nelson has one more gun and uses a bigger calibre gun (16" > 15"), though not by much I have to admit. :p Anyways the Nelson would have to fire a full broadside to acheive her max firepower, while the Richelieu need not. Don't argue with me that half of Richelieu's main battery can be knocked out with one lucky shot since the Richelieu's guns also have a longer range compared to the Nelson (41700m to 36375m)
 

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Well, guess what, the Richelieu also had no rear (main gun) turrets, and she packs more of a punch then the Nelsons (in terms of shell weight per min able to deliever to opponent). Below is my calculations:

equation: # of guns * shell weight (lbs) * 60s / fire cycle (s)

Richelieu: 8 * 1949 * 60 / 32 = 29235 lbs

Nelson: 9 x 2048 * 60 / 38 = 29103 lbs

Yeh, the Richelieu won despite the Nelson has one more gun and uses a bigger calibre gun (16" > 15"), though not by much I have to admit. :p Anyways the Nelson would have to fire a full broadside to acheive her max firepower, while the Richelieu need not. Don't argue with me that half of Richelieu's main battery can be knocked out with one lucky shot since the Richelieu's guns also have a longer range compared to the Nelson (41700m to 36375m)

That may be so, but unlike the Richileu, the Nelson can call in Carrier support. No, the Bearn doesn't count.
 

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Yey for the RN. SOmeone get Supermarine some more manpower! A naval spitfire would be good. Also, apparently Custom Avatars are back, or so I have been told. Just to say. I liked yours a lot.
 
Aug 15, 2008
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That may be so, but unlike the Richileu, the Nelson can call in Carrier support. No, the Bearn doesn't count.

Yup, the Bearn is of no good use. :p And I'm not going to argue for the gun school people anyways. What I'm trying to say that Richelieu pawns the Nelsons in terms of awesomeness. :D

BTW the Richelieu also served in the British Home Fleet, so Richelieu actually served along side the Nelson. I suppose then Richelieu can also call on some carrier support from the RN. :p
 

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Yup, the Bearn is of no good use. :p And I'm not going to argue for the gun school people anyways. What I'm trying to say that Richelieu pawns the Nelsons in terms of awesomeness. :D

BTW the Richelieu also served in the British Home Fleet, so Richelieu actually served along side the Nelson. I suppose then Richelieu can also call on some carrier support from the RN. :p

Well, I'll have to go into the savegame to say if Richileu was even built in TTL... :D
 
Aug 15, 2008
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Well, I'll have to go into the savegame to say if Richileu was even built in TTL... :D

Haha that's true, but I say that Richelieu is a must have since she's so awesome. :D
 

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gaiasabre11 On your dodgy calcs

1. No idea on the source of your figures on salvo time, but they are clearly 'best in trials' rather than 'actually obtained in combat'. I accept though Richelieu probably didn't ever fire her guns in anger enough for any useful combat figures. ;)

2. Shells are no use if they don't hit anything. And the Richelieu wasn't much cop at that was it. Not on the extremely limited evidence available anyway (one whole battle and maybe half a dozen volleys, no main gun hits on the enemy but received several herself)

3. Taking that one battle it is noticeable the main guns did more damage to themselves than the enemy pretty much knocking out Turret 2 when two of the guns exploded.

Thus sir I say you have once again proved their are lies, damned lies and statistics. Conversely I have proved the Richelieu was actually rubbish. :D
 
Aug 15, 2008
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gaiasabre11 On your dodgy calcs

1. No idea on the source of your figures on salvo time, but they are clearly 'best in trials' rather than 'actually obtained in combat'. I accept though Richelieu probably didn't ever fire her guns in anger enough for any useful combat figures. ;)

2. Shells are no use if they don't hit anything. And the Richelieu wasn't much cop at that was it. Not on the extremely limited evidence available anyway (one whole battle and maybe half a dozen volleys, no main gun hits on the enemy but received several herself)

3. Taking that one battle it is noticeable the main guns did more damage to themselves than the enemy pretty much knocking out Turret 2 when two of the guns exploded.

Thus sir I say you have once again proved their are lies, damned lies and statistics. Conversely I have proved the Richelieu was actually rubbish. :D

Richelieu actually fired her guns in anger throughout WWII and in Indochina, so I believe that the combat figures are true. Check the wiki link below.

Richelieu

About the battle you said, I believe it's the Battle of Dakar. Richelieu actually did hit the HMS Barham (according to this Battle of Dakar). At the time Richelieu wasn't actually complete (around 95%), missing important equipment mainly associated with fire control. Therefore it was like shooting a rabbit with a rifle, but the rabbit was 8 miles away.

The damaged you mentioned was due to a defective propellant, can't help if Richelieu was not actually put on trial before combat. After that one battle it was fixed and there were no more problems. ;)

Finally let's first just assume that Richelieu didn't made any hits, while we know Richelieu did suffer damage from her own main guns. In the end of the battle she forced the Allied task force to retreat. Take that! The awesomeness of Richelieu drove them away, haha. Richelieu does not need to hit the enemy, and the enemy will flee. :rofl:

Anyways, I can actually prove that Richelieu is superior (and more awesome) than any British BB afloat in WWII, bring them on if you dare. :p
 
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Now now, lads, let's keep this civil, shall we?
Fair enough, I should have realised the French never retreat in the face of facts or logic. They retreat in the face of everything else obviously, but not logic or facts. :D
 

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Hehe...:D


Update coming in, hopefully before midnight. I'll try to make chapter 100 something special.
 

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Chapter 97


maratmpl5822.jpg


11th May 1940, 11:23 AM

Skagerrak strait

The Soviet Battleship Marat was old, older than most of her crew in fact, but Admiral Kutzentzov, Commander in Chief Red Banner Baltic Fleet, was sure he would stand up to all the challenges the war could throw at her. Recent exercises with the German Baltic Fleet had shown that her potential was wasted in the confined spaces of a naval backwater, hence the orders to transfer the fleet to Wilhelmshafen, where the Germans had massed the majority of their own Fleet. Together the two would have the strength to challenge the Imperialist British and their so-called Home Fleet that was lurking away somewhere to the south-west of him. The orders they had received from the People's Comissar himself were relatively simple. Sneak down the side of Denmark, disrupt British patrols if encountered and then rendezvous with the Germans at a pre-determined location. Then move into their base and prepare for a coordinated breakthrough through the British blockade South of the Dogger Bank. It appeared that the Germans still had a score to settle and were hellbent on provoking and winning a battle in that area. Not that he cared. He had to win a decisive victory soon, as Stalin was not pleased with the seeming inactivity of the Red Navy. The two Battleships, the Marat and her sister the Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya, or October Revolution, would put fear into the souls and hearts of the British sailors. The British were so proud of their Royal Navy, but their sailors were weak, pampered by centuries of text-book Imperialism, and they were used to being the upper class. Their Officers were not much better, being an even higher class than the ordinary sailors. Kutzentzov firmly believed in the historical inevitability of Communism, and was sure that the new enlightened Soviet men that were the sailors of the Motherland were more than a match for any Imperialist Navy. The two Battleships were escorted by two flotillas of Destroyers. These were as old as the Battleships, and he would have to have them rebuilt before they could be sent out to sea again, because the main guns were still unproteced, with the majority of the Fleets allocation for the steel needed to construct the minor turrets reserved for the Sovyietsky-Soyuz class of Battleships.

Short Sunderland Maritime Patrol Aircraft, No.230 Squadron, ten miles due north-west

“...and then he said: 'Then I suggest you put some clothes on, cadet.'” The plane rippled with laughter as the pilot finished telling the anecdote from his days as a lowly Air Force cadet. They didn't expect any trade, and the large flying boat was running short of fuel, so in a mere three hours would have to turn back if it was to reach the Coastal Command base near the coast of Five. The Sunderland was fast becoming a legend within the RAF, and, thanks to the increased defence spending that had helped to put her in service in late 1938, the planes even had at least some creature comforts. Mainly some cots for non-essential crew-members to lie down when in transit to and from the patrol area, a small boiling vessel where hot soup and tea could be made and leather seats for the pilots, which were the last remnants of the Aircraft's civilian heritage as a long-range Royal Mail hauler. No.230 had been the first Coastal Command formation to receive the Sunderland, and they had made good use of them since. The crew of this particular one was tired, and longed to get home and sleep before they had to head out for their next patrol the day after tomorrow. The pilot was amongst the most tired men aboard, and as soon as he got home he would... “Skipper, contact, bearing green 19. Multiple ships, and a few heavies.” “Get that out sparks, and our position.” “Will do, Skipper.” the wireless operator said, while the pilot took the plane in for a closer look. The co-pilot trained his binoculars on the ships for an identification. “None of ours for sure... I've never seen this configuration before...” He pulled out his recognition books and went through them in an effort to identify the ships, as they were too far away to see any flags. “They are Ivan's skipper, Gangut-class I think. Rebuilt...” The Co-pilot inched a bit forward in an effort to get a closer look at the details. “Yes, definitely Ivans, the Marat and the Commune of Paris.” The pilot activated his throat microphone and said: “You got that, sparks?” “Aye Sir!” He turned back to his wireless set and started tapping it out, adding position, course and estimated speed as forwarded by the pilots, while they moved the plane into position to shadow the Soviet Squadron as long as they could. At the same time, and unseen by the crew of the Sunderland, a single Soviet Destroyer returned from a scouting run and spotted their aircraft. The crew promptly raced to action stations while the Captain notified the Admiral that the fleet had been spotted. Unfortunately for the Soviets, the old guns on the Destroyer could not be elevated enough to actually take the Sunderland under fire from where they were now, and their machine guns would be hard put to reach the needed altitude. The Admiral knew that there was not much that he could do, except radioing ahead to the Germans, notifying them that his fleet had been spotted, and hoping that he could sneak into German waters before he was intercepted by a numerically superior enemy force. Unknown to him, the road was mostly clear, as Homefleet was not yet on station again, and the Channel Fleet was spread awfully thin, thereby creating a gap in the British Naval blockade.

When he called his officers together on the Marat, he quickly emphasized his intention to continue on. “It is our duty to the motherland, comrades.” he said. “Comrade Admiral,” the Commanding Officer of the October Revolution asked, “can we be sure that the Imperialists won't catch us?” “Because, Comrade Captain, our German Allies will draw the British Navy out and lure them away from us, allowing us safe passage. Their spotter Aircraft may have reported our position, but I am sure that when faced with the greater threat of the entire German fleet going out, the British will ignore us and focus on them.” “That is good news, Comrade Admiral.” Kutzentzov nodded and proceeded to explain his plan to throw off the shadower and any that might replace this particular one. “We will change course and head out to sea until it is dark and they have to abandon their pursuit. We will then turn directly south, and when we reach the meeting area tomorrow, we will approach it from an unexpected direction.” And so, about an hour later, the Sunderland shadowing, still oblivious to the fact that she had been spotted, reported a course change, and dutifully followed the fleet out into the North Sea as it headed for the Dogger Bank and right into the jaws of the Home Fleet, or so they thought. The two Soviet Battleships and the escorting Destroyers made no moves to evade them, and perhaps they were not heading for Germany after all? When the report about the course change reached the Admiralty in London at about 14:12 PM, the Homefleet was promptly diverted, as with or without the Battlecruiser Squadron back into formation, these Soviet Ships needed to be stopped. If they managed to intercept the constant troop convoys that were shipping the British Expeditionary Force to France, then the slaughter would be enormous. The Fleet was dispatched and ordered to proceed from it's normal assembly area to the south, hopefully able to intercept the Soviet Squadron before it could touch the all-important convoys. The Channel Fleet on the other hand, just back up to strength since HMS Terror had returned from a re-fuelling run to Dover was ordered to hold station. The Soviets were clearly on their way to the West, so why should the fleet give up the carefully plotted patrol patterns? At the same time the German Squadron consisting of the Bismarck and the two Battlecruisers, ordered to meet and guide the Soviets in, steamed north, hugging the coast towards a Channel Fleet that was still in position, while the other German Squadron, ordered to draw the very same away steamed west, likely to encounter no British ships at all. The next few days would be very confusing and dangerous for the sailors of three separate Navies, no matter the outcome of all these Fleet movements.



[Notes: I hope no one minds that I anglified the name of the other Soviet Battleship. Also, vote for this AAR in the AARland choice awards. Now, for King and Country.]
 

unmerged(85800)

Marshal of the Empire
Oct 19, 2007
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0
Pathetic Soviet Fleet. I would think that Nelson could take it down without even breaking a sweat. Except that they are a little more devious than i had expected. now theres a feeling of dread lodged deep within me.
 
Aug 15, 2008
932
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Yup, the Soviet Fleet certainly sounds pathetic except for the morale of their sailors. :p Nice update anyways. :D

Now now, lads, let's keep this civil, shall we?

Sorry, I got a bit imtimidated. :p

Fair enough, I should have realised the French never retreat in the face of facts or logic. They retreat in the face of everything else obviously, but not logic or facts. :D

Retreat? There's no retreat! There's only... errr... another bottle of wine to open! :p (Or we're only advancing in another direction :D)
 

darthkommandant

RPM Imterm Air Guru
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Jan 27, 2008
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Is this a lead up to a massive naval battle? I sure hope it is as I want to see a lot of german and soviet ships sent to the bottom by the Royal Navy.