After the End - A post-apocalyptic America mod

[Santander]

I'm getting the impression that some folks are basing their arguments more on the interpretation and doctrine of their own church than in a more neutral and holistic viewpoint. I don't think this is the appropriate context in which to "defend" your religion's viewpoint; we're talking about objective classification within a larger whole.

I know. I get the feeling, however, that you really don't.

This justification is used by Mormons to say that Mormons are Christian. By this definition, Mormons are Christian. However, other Christians use the ideas set down at the Council of Nicaea (and in the centuries immediately prior and following) to define Christianity - including most notably the belief that the Bible is the immutable word of God.

So... there were no Christians before the Council of Nicaea? There were no Christians when the original apostles were on the earth? That makes no sense. The term "Christian", which literally means "follower of Christ", is recorded in Acts as having first been used in Antioch hundreds of years before the Council of Nicaea.

Here's a bunch of sources for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity

I asked for a reputable source, not Wikipedia (Wikipedia, by the way, does in fact call Mormons Christian).

What relevance should that have to anything?

None, really. Just curious.

Catholics are fundamentally Christian, though you could argue that their "veneration" of the saints tends on verge on idolatry. Nonetheless, the foundation of the religion is the Holy Bible, and alterations (papal canon) are far more minor and do not (can not) contradict the original.

Well, we do agree on one thing. Catholics are Christian, and they believe in the Bible.

See above link. Mormonism changes a LOT of scripture. Sure, it's more similar to Christianity than some of the pagan religions in vanilla or some of the afro-syncretic religions* in AtE, but the fundamental view of the story of God and of the firmament has substantial deviation. it's definitely comparable to Islam in variance.

Might I point out the hundreds of translations the Holy Bible has gone through? The Bible has lost and gained much throughout the centuries. It was compiled from various texts, and has gone through more translations and editions than practically any other book in history. The Bible no longer exists in its original form, period. In the hands of perfectly fallible human beings, many of which have had their own agendas, the Bible is not, and never has been, an immutable thing. Not since the original apostles went out of circulation.

Even if you want to stick to that definition for your own ideological reasons, it wouldn't mean that Mormonism wouldn't still deserve a separate group, it would just mean that the current "Christian" group ought to be more specific; for example "Nicene Christian" instead.

No, the Christian group instead ought to contain all Christians, even the ones you personally don't like.

I think this sentiment might be more rooted in your own real-life insecurities than in anything relevant to the game.

Um... what? What sentiment? The one that says that a religion switching groups mid-game might not be possible using current game mechanics? I don't believe I've expressed any "insecurities".

The static nature of Catholicism (and derivatives) is derived largely from concerns of dev workload; changing everything isn't that viable.

I'm mildly curious how you know what the mod devs' decision making process is, seeing as you aren't one.

And while many specific changes have probably happened that never came up in-game, let's look at some vanilla stuff: Sunni and Shiite can't be re-united ever as they're too fundamentally different. They've only been split for a couple hundred years at the new start of the game. Orthodox and Catholic, on the other hand, split during the course of the game† and the only real difference in theology is whether the bishop of Rome or of Constantinople happens to be more important. Meanwhile, Mormons start out far more vastly different than either of these two splits, and it's been 600 years for additional drift.

Islam is a completely different faith from Christianity and Judaism, just as Christianity and Judaism are completely different from each other. Mormonism is Christian denomination, just like Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and so on, and should be treated as such.

This does sound like a fun way to differentiate things.

Fun for you, but glaringly inaccurate for anyone who actually knows anything about Mormons.

If my memory is correct, the devs had previously stated that in this futurethe Fundamentalists were the dominant surviving Mormon group, hence polygamy in the dominant faith. Something to do with their tendency to live in more remote, sustainable communities giving them a stronger chance of surviving in large numbers.

That is inconsistent with the mod itself, not to mention population numbers. The Fundamentalists number in the thousands, while mainstream Mormons number in the millions. If anything, all current Mormon splinter groups should be extinct, rather than having one of the smaller sects take over. It just doesn't make realistic sense.

 

[Jalathas]

That is inconsistent with the mod itself, not to mention population numbers. The Fundamentalists number in the thousands, while mainstream Mormons number in the millions. If anything, all current Mormon splinter groups should be extinct, rather than having one of the smaller sects take over. It just doesn't make realistic sense.

Neither does an entirely feudal society forming in the US, though? Ultimately, pretty much every non-vanilla religion in the game is based on taking whatever fragments of past culture survived and stretching them to a ludicrous extent. If it's more reasonable to you, you could assume that Mormons in the mod are based entirely on a copy of Big Love that a group of people found and decided to reconstruct the religion from that.

I don't think Mormon fundamentalists becoming the major branch is significantly more unreasonable than the other changes to real-world religions. Things like Catholicism descending back into a crusading force or all Protestants either merging into a unified Evangelical conclave or becoming pagan snake-worshipers are just as bizarre. Not to mention states worshiping Mesoamerican religion, Voodoo, or becoming Norse Vikings!? While Cruxador is undeniably being an ass about it, I think this change is hitting close to home because it's your own personal beliefs. While it might be unlikely, it's no more unlikely than the rest of the mod.

Perhaps, though, you could work on a submod for more accurate Mormonism, if you still feel strongly about it? The devs seem pretty set on their choice, but there've been plenty of people in the thread over time with the same concerns as you. I can definitely see pulling together the manpower if you were so inclined. I'd be willing to take a shot at helping, myself, if you can find some other people with a little more experience.

 

[Santander]

Perhaps, though, you could work on a submod for more accurate Mormonism, if you still feel strongly about it? The devs seem pretty set on their choice, but there've been plenty of people in the thread over time with the same concerns as you. I can definitely see pulling together the manpower if you were so inclined. I'd be willing to take a shot at helping, myself, if you can find some other people with a little more experience.

I'd actually already been thinking of doing just that, though I'd first have to get past my schoolwork and my deeply ingrained laziness.

 

[Attalus]

It's just a mod guys, you don't need to argue that much. I think that it's good to make the religions differ from their current version, it avoids making too much connections with nowadays.

 

[TheShah]

I second the notion that Decadence/"Decay" should/could be added to the Reformed Rust Cult... along with suitable mechanics and traits to balance it. Alongside a Holy Order... A 'Brotherhood of Steel' or something.

GO RUST CULT!!! EMPIRE OF MICHIGAN FOR THE WIN (my last ATE game.)

EDIT:

Just go also add in I sympathize with the earlier discussion about re-doing Indiana:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...merica-mod&p=18975332&viewfull=1#post18975332

As a fellow Hoosier (live in Muncie for my MA, grew up in Fort Wayne, got my BA in Bloomington) I must agree/sympathize. The Wabash should be navigatiable and while it lacks defensible borders (perhaps Wabash would mitigate that) a polity out of Indianapolis/Fort Wayne could just as well count for a Kingdom (at the expense of Chicagoland.)

The "Empire of Michigan" mentioned above originally was centered out of Fort Wayne after all (although I moved the capital to Chicago 200 years later given my Empire expanded across the entirety of Chicagoland, as well as Michigan and half of Ontario.)

EDIT EDIT:

Does anyone have a link to a post or site where there is a map of what's planned for California?

 

[Parha]

Two of the Mormon heresies do not allow polygamy. I personally don't have a problem with mainstream Mormons having 2 wives while the heresies get more, but it's really Ofaloaf's call to make.

Hmm, sorry about the two Mormon heresies, I didn't notice that in the coding. My fault anyways . Also, Yay for my two wive idea!

The cross is not really used. I suggest the North Star, Seal of Melchizedek(Which is all around temples and missionary training centers), Oxen or Baptismal Font, Olive trees, CTR rings/shields, maybe some hands(laying on of hands), and perhaps a temple?

Those ideas were only a few, I have expanded it a bit more since last night and will continue to do so. Most of the stuff you listed is stuff I was considering, so I will use them since I know atleast someone would like them . The stuff I have so far is four different forms of Moroni, two types of trees, two hands-holding-a-iron-rod, two Trees of life, two beehives, two stars, two sets of Golden Plates, two crosses (they still believe in the Crucifixion so I include it), two laruel wreathes, a cut out of Utah, and a simplified flag of Utah. More to come.

EDIT: I would be willing to help with a more realistic Mormon submod too and I agree with the Rust Cult idea

 

[Parha]

Actually, would the devs be interested in incorporating my COA's? I was planing on just making a submod but if you guys like them, there will be about fourty.

 

[Darsara]

Not trying to wade into a debate that I know functionally nothing about (Not many Mormons in this part of Ontario), but I am willing to weight in on this point:

That is inconsistent with the mod itself, not to mention population numbers. The Fundamentalists number in the thousands, while mainstream Mormons number in the millions. If anything, all current Mormon splinter groups should be extinct, rather than having one of the smaller sects take over. It just doesn't make realistic sense.

First Nations/Native Americans are a dominant political power across a great swath of the map, the Anabaptists have taken over Pennsylvania (and Upstate New York now?) completely, and Vodoo is the dominant religion in Louisiana. Fundamentalist Communes coming to prosper works on the same principles: a smaller group possessing survival skill and living apart form the parts of society that turn all Mad-Max/Fallout on each other following the Event comparatively flourish, allowing them to come to greater prominence.

If it helps (I don't really know the social distribution), then imagine that Salt Lake Valley and the other major centres were devastated by the Event, reducing the population disparity. It is a major city, so depending on the nature of It, Salt Lake City would have been an appealing target.

 

[Santander]

If it helps (I don't really know the social distribution), then imagine that Salt Lake Valley and the other major centres were devastated by the Event, reducing the population disparity. It is a major city, so depending on the nature of It, Salt Lake City would have been an appealing target.

The problem I see is that all the population centers still exist in some way. Salt Lake City is still there. Chicago, NYC, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, et cetera, et cetera, all still very much on the map. If the event destroyed them, why would they still be around?

 

[EmperorG]

The problem I see is that all the population centers still exist in some way. Salt Lake City is still there. Chicago, NYC, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, et cetera, et cetera, all still very much on the map. If the event destroyed them, why would they still be around?

For the same reason any other city destroyed in history is still around, people rebuilt it. Why? Probably because there was still plenty of intact infrastructure that it would have been easier to rebuild than build a new city wholesale.

 

[PyroAce2]

The problem I see is that all the population centers still exist in some way. Salt Lake City is still there. Chicago, NYC, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, et cetera, et cetera, all still very much on the map. If the event destroyed them, why would they still be around?

Signs last longer than people? Also, because its relatable. Ultimately the devs made choices based on creating a fun, diverse map that represented a future, not necessarily the future. Using as many mechanics in CK2 as possible makes players happy, so a few religions need to be polygamous.

I think you may want to just modify the mod on your end to remove the one line in the religions file to make mainstream mormons in your game monogamous.

 

[Darsara]

The problem I see is that all the population centers still exist in some way. Salt Lake City is still there. Chicago, NYC, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, et cetera, et cetera, all still very much on the map. If the event destroyed them, why would they still be around?

As others have commented; ravaged 600 years ago. Even most nuclear weapons fallout would have decayed to an unfun but hard for medievalish tech society to notice levels. And after a few centuries of natural rehabilitation, Salt Lake Valley would likely return to being one of the most inhabitable (not fun, but better than most of the region) areas between the western Great Plans and California.

And that's assuming it was nuclear; maybe it was Biopreparat Red Pox; maybe early, atomic powered mobile phones melts brains; maybe reality TV caused a swath of the population to commit suicide by-self-neglect, and zombified others; maybe early GMS really did prove the sceptics right. That's part why the nature of the Event is kept undefined.

And, as PryoAce2 has also said, gameplay trumps certain bits of logic.

 

[enemyspycrab]

Just a small suggestion: should Ursuline states start with Absolute Cognatic or even Enatic-Cognatic succession?

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

As a fellow Hoosier (live in Muncie for my MA, grew up in Fort Wayne, got my BA in Bloomington) I must agree/sympathize. The Wabash should be navigatiable and while it lacks defensible borders (perhaps Wabash would mitigate that) a polity out of Indianapolis/Fort Wayne could just as well count for a Kingdom (at the expense of Chicagoland.)

A lot more of the rivers should be navigable, as an added point to my original Indiana rework. There's a very interesting Stratfor article that goes into depth about it, and why our river system is one of the keys to America's success. As it turns out, more than half of the contiguous US is covered in navigable rivers, and the richest/most productive farmland in the world is less than 200 miles away from a navigable river. That basically covers the area from the Appalachians to the Rockies and up into the arable portion of Canada. You can reliably boat through most of the country, which is great for commerce since riverine/ocean transport is the cheapest method of transporting goods. (The article also goes into New Orleans being the center point of that system, and how controlling that port is the central key to controlling the commerce of the country, which is why every major land war in the US has included a campaign to control it. Neat article.)

But beyond my obvious bias since I've been a mostly life-long Hoosier, I just want the setup to reflect the geographic reality and projection of power balances/capabilities in the state. The Southwest part is rough, but heavily forested and defensible, with a large amount of useable natural resources like timber, fish, coal, and building stone. The rest of the state is flat and covered in wide patches of heavy forest and large, navigable, slow-moving rivers and arable land. The White River(s), Maumee, Wabash, Ohio, Kankakee... All easily navigable. I believe I outlined a very reasonable solution that both covers missing information and provides an accurate physical setup without granting too much favor or buffing it. The provinces are the same, minus my additions of cities to flesh it out, and the geographical reality is reflected. And I included the files so that way they could be drag-dropped right into the game. There are no added benefits or changes to holding amounts or cultures.

 

[Cruxador]

So... there were no Christians before the Council of Nicaea? There were no Christians when the original apostles were on the earth? That makes no sense. The term "Christian", which literally means "follower of Christ", is recorded in Acts as having first been used in Antioch hundreds of years before the Council of Nicaea.

Are you really trying to say that the early mystery cult is the same thing as modern Christianity?

I asked for a reputable source, not Wikipedia (Wikipedia, by the way, does in fact call Mormons Christian).

Wikipedia cites its sources.

No, the Christian group instead ought to contain all Christians, even the ones you personally don't like.

See, this is what I was getting at with the beginning of this post. Why would you assume I don't like mormons? I think you may be letting your emotional attachment to your religion get in the way of your game design.

Um... what? What sentiment? The one that says that a religion switching groups mid-game might not be possible using current game mechanics? I don't believe I've expressed any "insecurities".

Sorry, that was unclear phrasing. The idea that other Christians should recognize Mormonism as a form of Christianity, and that this is a desirable thing for Mormons. Remember that this is set in a medieval-style mindset, which means that the view of Mormons in this period is going to be "Other religions are wrong and inferior" and not "we are a lesser part of a greater array of views" which seems to be the mindset you're coming from in wanting acceptance. That kind of thinking is actually relaively modern, if you look at older more tribal viewpoints, people consider their own kind to be the best. It's often referred to as xenophobia, but in any case there's really no reason Mormons should want to be accepted by others when they consider their own church to be the one correct one.

I'm mildly curious how you know what the mod devs' decision making process is, seeing as you aren't one.

I'm working under the assumption here that they don't tend to lie without a substantial reason. Communication tends to break down without this assumption.

Islam is a completely different faith from Christianity and Judaism, just as Christianity and Judaism are completely different from each other. Mormonism is Christian denomination, just like Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and so on, and should be treated as such.

Yes, that is indeed the opinion that we're contesting.

That is inconsistent with the mod itself, not to mention population numbers. The Fundamentalists number in the thousands, while mainstream Mormons number in the millions. If anything, all current Mormon splinter groups should be extinct, rather than having one of the smaller sects take over. It just doesn't make realistic sense.

I think you may have misunderstood this. The idea is that a polygamous group, somewhere in the six hundred years we don't know about, gained prominence and overtook the current mainstream. Modern populations are irrelevant, and this is far from the only case in the mod where fringe groups rose to mainstream prominence.

While Cruxador is undeniably being an ass about it

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this?

A lot more of the rivers should be navigable, as an added point to my original Indiana rework. There's a very interesting Stratfor article that goes into depth about it, and why our river system is one of the keys to America's success. As it turns out, more than half of the contiguous US is covered in navigable rivers, and the richest/most productive farmland in the world is less than 200 miles away from a navigable river. That basically covers the area from the Appalachians to the Rockies and up into the arable portion of Canada. You can reliably boat through most of the country, which is great for commerce since riverine/ocean transport is the cheapest method of transporting goods. (The article also goes into New Orleans being the center point of that system, and how controlling that port is the central key to controlling the commerce of the country, which is why every major land war in the US has included a campaign to control it. Neat article.)

I agree, it's a bit weird looking at river that they take great big barges through, and thinking that it can't handle a longboat. Sure, some of them might be less than two yards deep in the summer in the parts that aren't dredged, but a longboat has a draft of what, three feet?

 

[Santander]

-{snip}-

At this point I think you're just being combative for the sake of being combative. Pardon me if I end this off-topic argument before you're finished trying to make yourself feel superior. What you think of my views has no bearing on the mod, seeing as you're not one of the devs (admittedly, my views don't necessarily have any bearing either, for the same reason). Thus, I have no interest in debating you further as you will only continue under the same stubborn obstinacy you started with. This discussion is over. Good day.

 

[Shade2]

Actually, would the devs be interested in incorporating my COA's? I was planing on just making a submod but if you guys like them, there will be about fourty.

That would be pretty great, only thing to remember is that I think the standard size per icon in the mod is 128x128, not 80x84. It makes it a bit crisper and easier to work with, unless I'm wrong.

 

[Jalathas]

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this?

Trying to blame someone's argument on "their own real-life insecurities" is pretty shitty, and I think that's all I really need to say on the matter?

 

[Cruxador]

At this point I think you're just being combative for the sake of being combative. Pardon me if I end this off-topic argument before you're finished trying to make yourself feel superior. What you think of my views has no bearing on the mod, seeing as you're not one of the devs (admittedly, my views don't necessarily have any bearing either, for the same reason). Thus, I have no interest in debating you further as you will only continue under the same stubborn obstinacy you started with. This discussion is over. Good day.

Except it was a discussion of how mormonism should be classified in-game, which had no relation to my own real-life views. Is it really "stubborn obstinacy" to not change my mind when you supply no compelling argument to do so? Instead of trying to "combat" maybe you could have tried to (in the more formal sense) to argue or (in the more commonly colloquial sense) to explain? Because that's what I was trying for, though I recognize that my own imperfections may have hindered me.

Trying to blame someone's argument on "their own real-life insecurities" is pretty shitty, and I think that's all I really need to say on the matter?

Well, I legitimately think that the strength of his desire for Mormonism to be "accepted" in-game is probably rooted in a real-life perception* of his faith as persecuted, and that wanting acceptance rather than dominance is, at best, a lack of fundamental confidence in the primacy of his faith. How might that have been more politely phrased?


*While I recognize that implying he's unable to separate personal beliefs from more abstract discusson could be taken as rude, I don't think it's unwarranted here. Note, for example, how quick he was to accuse me of bringing in my real-life faith despite no actual evidence or logic to support this beyond that I chose not to blindly adhere to LDS dogmatic self-classification.

 

[das]

Shouldn't Americanists have Decadence, for being un-American?