After the End - A post-apocalyptic America mod

[Santander]

I'm not sure that's true, though. Protestantism, Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, whatever differences they may have, are based on the same set of texts. Belief in a further, more recent prophet is a large and important change to the religion. Like I said, that doesn't make it not Christian, but it does make it fundamentally different in certain ways from other Christian faiths, in a way that disagreement about church hierarchy and practices do not.

As to the phrase mainstream Christianity, that's not really debatable? It's a phrase used pretty commonly in the US. Google suggests "Nicene Christianity" could be an alternative applicable phrase, if you prefer.

I can see that neither of us is going to convince the other, so I think we're going to need to agree to disagree. This isn't really the place for this discussion anyway.

Nitpick- that isn't entirely true. Deuterocanonicals are included in Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but not Protestantism. Other variances of Christianity accept or reject different lists of them.

Also, see the Apocrypha.

Anyway, back to the topic of the mod itself, I personally believe that if Mormonism is going to remain in a separate religion group then a particularly strong Mormon ruler should be able to restore Mormonism to its place in the Christian group, game mechanics permitting, if only to give Mormon rulers something more to work toward.

 

[Jalathas]

I can see that neither of us is going to convince the other, so I think we're going to need to agree to disagree. This isn't really the place for this discussion anyway.

That's fair.

Anyway, back to the topic of the mod itself, I personally believe that if Mormonism is going to remain in a separate religion group then a particularly strong Mormon ruler should be able to restore Mormonism to its place in the Christian group, game mechanics permitting, if only to give Mormon rulers something more to work toward.

I think the problem is that you're aiming, essentially, for acceptance (going from infidel status to heretic), which isn't a concept that works well for this game. Effectively, this would be a powerful Mormon ruler being recognized as a friend by the other Christian rulers, which seems less likely than said ruler being seen as a threat. That's why mending the schism is a forceful action in CK2; gaining acceptance from people who view you as a heathen is nigh-impossible, but a powerful enough ruler could force people to recognize his views as correct. In that case, though, you'd be forcing Christians into the Mormon group rather than vice-versa, which I don't think is what you want.

 

[Santander]

I think the problem is that you're aiming, essentially, for acceptance (going from infidel status to heretic), which isn't a concept that works well for this game. Effectively, this would be a powerful Mormon ruler being recognized as a friend by the other Christian rulers, which seems less likely than said ruler being seen as a threat. That's why mending the schism is a forceful action in CK2; gaining acceptance from people who view you as a heathen is nigh-impossible, but a powerful enough ruler could force people to recognize his views as correct. In that case, though, you'd be forcing Christians into the Mormon group rather than vice-versa, which I don't think is what you want.

No, it would be forcing other Christians to recognize Mormonism as a Christian faith. Nothing else. That being said, I suspect that it's not possible one way or the other.

 

[Jalathas]

Right, but like I said, I'm not sure that's a concept that makes sense. Recognizing Mormonism as a Christian faith, without destroying/discrediting the other Christian religions, is the same as gaining acceptance. But gaining acceptance by force doesn't quite work as a concept. If they don't accept you as Christian, then growing more powerful, prestigious, even pious won't convince them otherwise, it'll just scare them. I suppose eradicating a non-Christian religion in the name of Christianity might do it, but I don't think that's a viable mechanic in CK2.

 

[Parha]

Jalathas made a good point about mending the schism. I have thought about this a bit more, and if the LDS (Mormon) Church has changed as dramatically as the Devs say it has, I believe that melding of the two relegous groups would require something closer to the Byzantine decision. For an ingame example, the two Canadian religions. One thing, I am currently working on unique COAs for Mormons, heres a sneak peak.



EDIT: You have to click on the image to see the whole thing. I apologize for the quality, it is better in the actual files. Also, the next things I will include are Crosses, Gold Plates, The flag of Utah, a little card saying "Hello, my name is", A hill with the sun coming over it (supposed to be Cumorah), and stuff people may suggest

 

[Santander]

Jalathas made a good point about mending the schism. I have thought about this a bit more, and if the LDS (Mormon) Church has changed as dramatically as the Devs say it has, I believe that melding of the two relegous groups would require something closer to the Byzantine decision. For an ingame example, the two Canadian religions.

Source?

 

[Parha]

Source?

This is one page back.

We do have mechanics that can mend the schism between the High Church (essentially Canadian Anglican) and the Ursulines. After 600 years, Mormonism might be a bit too different to do the same.

 

[Santander]

This is one page back.

In that case, I'd like to register my disbelief that Mormonism would somehow undergo some massive change while all other Christian faiths remain relatively static. The current setup is both inaccurate and unrealistic.

 

[Parha]

In that case, I'd like to register my disbelief that Mormonism would somehow undergo some massive change while all other Christian faiths remain relatively static. The current setup is both inaccurate and unrealistic.

I personally disagree with the Devs about how Mormons would have advanced in 600 years, the biggest problem I have is them re-adopting polygamy after having abandoned over a hundred years away from today. Then again, its their mod so they decide how different religions have progressed overtime.

 

[gharzad]

I personally disagree with the Devs about how Mormons would have advanced in 600 years, the biggest problem I have is them re-adopting polygamy after having abandoned over a hundred years away from today. Then again, its their mod so they decide how different religions have progressed overtime.

It makes sense to me that this would happen in a crucible of chaos and desperation. There are real world examples of this. The chaos in the Middle East today has allowed ISIS to revert their religion back to old practices with ease.

 

[Parha]

It makes sense to me that this would happen in a crucible of chaos and desperation. There are real world examples of this. The chaos in the Middle East today has allowed ISIS to revert their religion back to old practices with ease.

I understand that reasoning, but the problem is that they are just one splinter of Islam, in ck2 terms a heresy. In the mod, ALL Mormons are polygamist. I think it would be unique for the Mormon heresy to be the only polygamists because IRL polygamists are banned from the Church. Maybe a halfway solution would be to change the number of wives mainstream Mormons to only two, the main one and a secondary one. Then the heresies could have more flavor by allowing 3 or 4 wives. Anyone else like that solution? To sum it up my problem is that the mainstream Mormons are polygamist despite ditching this along time ago and ban people from the Church who practice it today. The best solution (in my opinion) is for them to only be allowed an extremely small number of wives (2) or restrict polygamy to the three Mormon heresies.

 

[BobChicago]

I'm getting crashes on on loading graphics.
I'm on mac by the way.

 

[theoneguy]

I'm getting crashes on on loading graphics.
I'm on mac by the way.

Yeah, I am as well. It started about a week ago.

 

[LordInsane]

In that case, I'd like to register my disbelief that Mormonism would somehow undergo some massive change while all other Christian faiths remain relatively static. The current setup is both inaccurate and unrealistic.

They didn't. Some of the Christian faiths remained relatively static, but the Revelationists are of Christian origin.

 

[SteelyGlint]

In the mod, ALL Mormons are polygamist. I think it would be unique for the Mormon heresy to be the only polygamists because IRL polygamists are banned from the Church. Maybe a halfway solution would be to change the number of wives mainstream Mormons to only two, the main one and a secondary one. Then the heresies could have more flavor by allowing 3 or 4 wives. Anyone else like that solution?

Two of the Mormon heresies do not allow polygamy. I personally don't have a problem with mainstream Mormons having 2 wives while the heresies get more, but it's really Ofaloaf's call to make.

I'm getting crashes on on loading graphics.
I'm on mac by the way.

We've had a lot of issues with Mac crashes, which is a problem for our team because none of us have Macs. It would be a big help if a Mac-using modder could do some troubleshooting and let us know how to fix the problem.

 

[rbc1989]

EDIT: You have to click on the image to see the whole thing. I apologize for the quality, it is better in the actual files. Also, the next things I will include are Crosses, Gold Plates, The flag of Utah, a little card saying "Hello, my name is", A hill with the sun coming over it (supposed to be Cumorah), and stuff people may suggest

The cross is not really used. I suggest the North Star, Seal of Melchizedek(Which is all around temples and missionary training centers), Oxen or Baptismal Font, Olive trees, CTR rings/shields, maybe some hands(laying on of hands), and perhaps a temple?

 

[Haghog]

Been following this thread and playing around with the mod, following my unification of the Canadian Church I've had a few ideas I'd like to suggest; obviously, feel free to ignore them

1). The Confederated Church needs its own symbol, just for flavour if nothing else; having reformed it, the use of the Catholic cross felt underwhelming. I've looked around and I think this version of the cross, which incorporates Fleur-De-Lis, would work well , particularly if the colour was switched to gold-it shows its still a Christian sect, but links in the Ursuline symbol

2). It may be impossible (I don't understand coding), but when the Rust Cult is reformed, the decadence mechanic could be modded in, as "Rust" or "Decay"; the faith could then be more focused on the "maintenance" of machines, rather than their falling apart

3). The Evangelical's, and by extension the Holy Columbian Confederacy, should be more prone to heresy than they are; rather than always developing into a massive blob across the lower half of the map. My suggestion would be to add a modifier of -50% moral authority labelled "Sola Scriptura", decreasing the MTTH for heresy events, and increasing the zealous and heretic penalties for Evangelicals and their heresies, as well as adding more heresies (Baptists, United Church, maybe even Lutheran?)-with a decision, perhaps by gaining a large amount of prestige and piety+High Moral Authority, that the Emperor can revoke Sola Scriptura, meaning only one definition of the faith is valid; perhaps even removing the council and instituting a singular High Priest; maybe shifting the name to Protestantism, if thats possible

4). Mending Schisms; despite that it'd be 1000 years after the schism between them, and the other faiths have changed dramatically as well, I think a Catholic ruler should be able to mend the different schisms between Catholicism and its offshoots-Anabaptist, Evangelical, Ursuline, Sagrado, even Falling Star-and yes that'd kill religious diversity, but it'd be so hard to do it should be more a bragging rights kind of thing to achieve; maybe make it so the Catholics have to hold all the other faiths holy sites and cost large amounts of piety to achieve (though if Sola Scripturia and the Unification of the Canadian Churches occur, the Evangelicals and Confederated faith should be immune to this)

5). More a question that anything else; is there a decent guide somewhere to history modding? Because if so, I'd be more than happy to help in fleshing out some of the Ursuline history, e.g. Agrippa the Maid and the Pope's around her; perhaps the Ursuline faith having been considered Catholic until Agrippa splits off from a corrupt church and takes over as the head in Quebec (as a side question, why is Detroit a Ursuline holy site? Just for competion against the Rust Cultists/Norse?)

Anyway, thank you for making this mod, I've been having a lot of fun with it; hope you find some of these ideas I've suggest interesting

 

[Santander]

Two of the Mormon heresies do not allow polygamy. I personally don't have a problem with mainstream Mormons having 2 wives while the heresies get more, but it's really Ofaloaf's call to make.

Two of the Mormon heresies are either extinct in the present day or almost so (Godbeites and Strangites, respectively). It would make more sense to replace the two with the Community of Christ and the Fundamentalists, each of which is large enough to have realistic expectations of surviving the mod's apocalypse. Remove polygamy from mainstream Mormonism, remove the Godbeites and the Strangites, and replace them with the Community of Christ and the Fundamentalists, the former of which has attempted in recent years to move closer to Protestantism and the latter of which actually still practices polygamy. Finally, make the Fundamentalists a somewhat common problem for Mormon rulers. Implementing these things will make the mod much more believable. That's my two cents.

 

[PyroAce2]

Two of the Mormon heresies are either extinct in the present day or almost so (Godbeites and Strangites, respectively). It would make more sense to replace the two with the Community of Christ and the Fundamentalists, each of which is large enough to have realistic expectations of surviving the mod's apocalypse. Remove polygamy from mainstream Mormonism, remove the Godbeites and the Strangites, and replace them with the Community of Christ and the Fundamentalists, the former of which has attempted in recent years to move closer to Protestantism and the latter of which actually still practices polygamy. Finally, make the Fundamentalists a somewhat common problem for Mormon rulers. Implementing these things will make the mod much more believable. That's my two cents.

If my memory is correct, the devs had previously stated that in this futurethe Fundamentalists were the dominant surviving Mormon group, hence polygamy in the dominant faith. Something to do with their tendency to live in more remote, sustainable communities giving them a stronger chance of surviving in large numbers.

 

[Cruxador]

I'm getting the impression that some folks are basing their arguments more on the interpretation and doctrine of their own church than in a more neutral and holistic viewpoint. I don't think this is the appropriate context in which to "defend" your religion's viewpoint; we're talking about objective classification within a larger whole.

The reason they are Christian IRL is because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

This justification is used by Mormons to say that Mormons are Christian. By this definition, Mormons are Christian. However, other Christians use the ideas set down at the Council of Nicaea (and in the centuries immediately prior and following) to define Christianity - including most notably the belief that the Bible is the immutable word of God.

Excuse me? To be a Christian is to be a follower of Jesus Christ, pure and simple. "Theologically speaking", both said additional prophet and said additional holy book testify of Jesus Christ. His name is in the name of the church (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints), for crying out loud! Find me a reputable, non-Evangelical, source that refers to Mormons as non-Christian.

Here's a bunch of sources for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity

Oh, and what faith do you belong to, anyway?

What relevance should that have to anything?

Do you consider Catholics to be non-Christian too? Many people with that opinion do.

Catholics are fundamentally Christian, though you could argue that their "veneration" of the saints tends on verge on idolatry. Nonetheless, the foundation of the religion is the Holy Bible, and alterations (papal canon) are far more minor and do not (can not) contradict the original.

You're right, it doesn't make much sense. In fact, I'd say it makes about as much sense as putting Mormons in a separate religion group in the first place, especially using definition you provided.

See above link. Mormonism changes a LOT of scripture. Sure, it's more similar to Christianity than some of the pagan religions in vanilla or some of the afro-syncretic religions* in AtE, but the fundamental view of the story of God and of the firmament has substantial deviation. it's definitely comparable to Islam in variance.

No, I'm not insulted, just incredulous. "Additional theological additions" appear in literally every different sect of every religion on the planet. That's what makes them, well, different sects. There is quite literally no such thing as "mainstream Christianity". What you call "the most basic definition" is, in fact, the only definition that is worth using. Mormonism is as different from Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism as they are from each other.

Even if you want to stick to that definition for your own ideological reasons, it wouldn't mean that Mormonism wouldn't still deserve a separate group, it would just mean that the current "Christian" group ought to be more specific; for example "Nicene Christian" instead.

No, it would be forcing other Christians to recognize Mormonism as a Christian faith. Nothing else. That being said, I suspect that it's not possible one way or the other.

I think this sentiment might be more rooted in your own real-life insecurities than in anything relevant to the game.

In that case, I'd like to register my disbelief that Mormonism would somehow undergo some massive change while all other Christian faiths remain relatively static. The current setup is both inaccurate and unrealistic.

The static nature of Catholicism (and derivatives) is derived largely from concerns of dev workload; changing everything isn't that viable. And while many specific changes have probably happened that never came up in-game, let's look at some vanilla stuff: Sunni and Shiite can't be re-united ever as they're too fundamentally different. They've only been split for a couple hundred years at the new start of the game. Orthodox and Catholic, on the other hand, split during the course of the game† and the only real difference in theology is whether the bishop of Rome or of Constantinople happens to be more important. Meanwhile, Mormons start out far more vastly different than either of these two splits, and it's been 600 years for additional drift.

I understand that reasoning, but the problem is that they are just one splinter of Islam, in ck2 terms a heresy. In the mod, ALL Mormons are polygamist. I think it would be unique for the Mormon heresy to be the only polygamists because IRL polygamists are banned from the Church. Maybe a halfway solution would be to change the number of wives mainstream Mormons to only two, the main one and a secondary one. Then the heresies could have more flavor by allowing 3 or 4 wives. Anyone else like that solution? To sum it up my problem is that the mainstream Mormons are polygamist despite ditching this along time ago and ban people from the Church who practice it today. The best solution (in my opinion) is for them to only be allowed an extremely small number of wives (2) or restrict polygamy to the three Mormon heresies.

This does sound like a fun way to differentiate things.

If my memory is correct, the devs had previously stated that in this futurethe Fundamentalists were the dominant surviving Mormon group, hence polygamy in the dominant faith. Something to do with their tendency to live in more remote, sustainable communities giving them a stronger chance of surviving in large numbers.

This is true in general, not just for Mormons.



*Many of whom also believe in Jesus, incidentally.
†Though Paradox hasn't actually implemented this, which is totally bogus, but that's off-topic for this thread...