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Cruxador

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The vision quest events pull random gods from the religion, so I think you discovered a mistake from when the Santeria religion was created.

We might have someone revisit the Afro-Syncretic faiths to clean them up a little: more appropriate god names for Santeria (which I believe were just placeholders copied from Rastafarian that were never replaced), better evil god names for Santeria/Voodoo/Candomble, a bit of added description info for all the AS Religions.
I could tell it probably wasn't intended, yeah. Upon checking the file, you're correct about the god names, which is a bit weird since the three facets of God are named correctly in the religion's description (although I think the description would be better if it pointed out their connections to the three esteemed roles, ie that the creator is also a queen/mother, that the administrator of ochá is also a king, and that the sun is also a warrior). And vision quests should meet the Ochá, not animals. Actually, I reckon that the religion should be called Lucumí in the first place, since that's what it's called by folks that follow it (or Regla de Lucumí, or Regla de Ochá, but those are less catchy in my opinion) but this is just one opinion and I recognize it would be reasonable to disagree.

Regardless of these details though, I think the caribbean religious definitely need a revisit. It doesn't have to be an immediate priority or anything of course, I'd definitely prioritize it as a post-5.0 unless someone just happens to get the urge to get afro-syncretic and dive into this stuff.

If I get "burnt up" about anything, it's your consistently poor attitude and the way you talk down to the members of this mod's dev team. But perhaps this is best put to bed since we've already had one flareup in this thread recently.
I honestly am not sure what you mean by this. Are you expecting a different level of formality? Do you think you should be called sir? I'm intending to talk on an equal basis, and thought I was doing so. What are you perceiving as talking down? What, in your opinion, is "poor" about my attitude, and what does that even mean to you?
 
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Jalathas

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I honestly am not sure what you mean by this. Are you expecting a different level of formality? Do you think you should be called sir? I'm intending to talk on an equal basis, and thought I was doing so. What are you perceiving as talking down? What, in your opinion, is "poor" about my attitude, and what does that even mean to you?

Not a dev, but from what I've seen you consistently speak to devs as though you're in charge. Discussing your opinions and ideas on what would theoretically be cool with some rando in the thread is one thing. Telling multiple devs that their plans are wrong and don't work is entirely different. Ultimately, no, you are not on an equal basis with the dev team in that way. You are a fan, who should feel free to share ideas, not a part of the creative process who can speak authoritatively about what does or does not fit into the mod.

Suggestion - Talk about what you do and don't like about the devs' ideas, rather than stating that it's a bad idea, and you'll get a much better response. Explain WHY you feel a large Asian empire doesn't mesh with the vibe you get from the setting, instead of just saying "that really doesn't fit." Give feedback, not dismissal and your own completely different ideas.
 

Cruxador

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Telling multiple devs that their plans are wrong and don't work is entirely different.
I've brought up what I thought were potential issues, with the intent that the devs could be mindful of them in their decision making. I would have thought it obvious that the devs coudl mitigate or choose to disregard these concerns at their discretion just as they might choose to, based on things I mention as well as things other people mention or things they discern for themselves from other sources, change paths. No decision can be made in a vacuum after all, and no good one can be made without understanding the options.

Ultimately, no, you are not on an equal basis with the dev team in that way.
So, what? I should talk to them as though they were my grandfather? Of course I'm not on equal footing with specific regard to creating the mod, but pretty much everywhere I've ever been on the net, the default assumption is to talk to people as though you're the same generation. If the devs here want to be treated like their relative wisdom is as though they were twice the age of everyone else in the thread, I'd consider that pretentious enough that for someone to request it on their behalf would be an insult to them. They certainly haven't said that for themselves. No good will come from putting words in people's mouths, especially when those words would reflect poorly on them.

Although honestly, what level of formality transmits through text anyway? After all, even if I were to stand up at my computer while they sit, it's not like anyone would know.

You are a fan, who should feel free to share ideas, not a part of the creative process who can speak authoritatively about what does or does not fit into the mod.
I can speak authoritatively about what my opinions are in that regard. If that wasn't clear, I apologize. If I'm speaking about something beyond my own opinion I'll cite it, but I suppose I can try to be more specific that things are my own opinions in the future if it's not something that people would naturally take as given.

Suggestion - Talk about what you do and don't like about the devs' ideas, rather than stating that it's a bad idea, and you'll get a much better response. Explain WHY you feel a large Asian empire doesn't mesh with the vibe you get from the setting, instead of just saying "that really doesn't fit." Give feedback, not dismissal and your own completely different ideas.
Thanks, I'll try to do that more in the future.
With regards to the pan-asian empire, There's the logic-based concern is that it's set in a world where logistical projection has broken down. China is only able to grow so large because of its two great rivers and one great cana, and its coast-line. But even then, if it were to somehow dominate diverse and far-flung cultures of east and southeast asia, that state would barely last a day before things start breaking down. At no time in history have they even had a particularly pervasive control over korea and vietnam, which are directly adjacent to the Chinese heartland, and control over mongolia and beyond has been pretty sporadic despite a massive investment (including, but definitely not limited to, the Great Wall) in that area, and Tibet is only effectively ruled by China in the modern era. And the islands are also quite separate, and there's a reason that, for example, invasions into Japan tend to fail.
As for a pan-asian empire led by someone else, they don't have the manpower, and some manner of equal union would in addition to being logistically difficult, wouldn't really benefit anybody. Nations in the area can already be huge and powerful without betraying their pride (as ethnicities, nationalities, or whatever) by forfeiting uniqueness as a political entity.

Perhaps the primary reason I felt it didn't fit is a lot less rooted in historical logic though, and more in the organization of the part of the world that we do see. America, and existing invasions, are made up of pure cultures and religions that are more extreme and more defined for not being mixed together. There are degrees to which this isn't true, and Mexico lacks some of that by sharing its religion so much, but in general part of what I really like about the mod is how there are so many diverse local cultures; it reverses a modern trend of homogenization by focussing on local color in a way that's fun and neither preachy nor offensive. Doing the opposite to Asia seems painfully boring in comparison, and perhaps more pertinently it seems to me to be blindly or willfully ignorant of the cultural differences of the people who live there; either ignoring or denying that these variations have their own uniqueness and beauty that would make them interesting and worthy of inclusion into a mod.
 
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DarkReborn

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I think that ultimately the issue is a moot point, Asia itself is most probably not going to be physically represented in any way in the mod; it will only ( apparently ) be a source of invasions, and that's all. From a world building viewpoint, I'd say that it's better to have some kind of nebulous East Asian empire which sends expeditionary forces into far-flung lands, no need to get so concrete about it, you don't need to explain all the bits and pieces to make them interesting. As I see it, that would only cause further flame wars.
 

Thorpe

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With the obvious caveats that it is not to me but to the dev team to decide what is and is not appropriate in the mod: please don't go overboard with invasions. Hordes as handled by CK2 are generally not very interesting and much more likely to reduce fun gameplay by homogenizing large swathes of the map as unbreakable mega blobs. There's plenty of room for fun preset events that don't involve dumping loads of deathstacks onshore and calling it a day. Small duchy level invasions from across the sea do sound like a step in the right direction, I'll grant.
 

Santander

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Yes, the player can marry multiple wives if they have Sword of Islam.

I know, I know, I'm quoting a month-old post, but I feel the need to inform you that this is, well, wrong. It seems to be a pretty common misconception that polygamy is permissible in the Mormon faith, when it is only so in a couple of tiny fringe groups, none of which are in any way associated with the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, any Mormon found to be practicing polygamy is automatically excommunicated. This has been the case since 1890. So to have this "feature" in this mod would be a misrepresentation of the faith as a whole.

Aside from that little detail, this mod is looking pretty good. I'm actually tempted to load up 2.3.2 in order to try it out (currently I use 2.1.4).

-A Mormon
 

rbc1989

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I know, I know, I'm quoting a month-old post, but I feel the need to inform you that this is, well, wrong. It seems to be a pretty common misconception that polygamy is permissible in the Mormon faith, when it is only so in a couple of tiny fringe groups, none of which are in any way associated with the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, any Mormon found to be practicing polygamy is automatically excommunicated. This has been the case since 1890. So to have this "feature" in this mod would be a misrepresentation of the faith as a whole.

Aside from that little detail, this mod is looking pretty good. I'm actually tempted to load up 2.3.2 in order to try it out (currently I use 2.1.4).

-A Mormon

Yeah a lot of people do not realize polygamy stopped in the 1800s. I am more concerned about the lack of 12 apostles in game. Which could be done using the cardinal system from sons of abraham.
 

Cruxador

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With the obvious caveats that it is not to me but to the dev team to decide what is and is not appropriate in the mod: please don't go overboard with invasions. Hordes as handled by CK2 are generally not very interesting and much more likely to reduce fun gameplay by homogenizing large swathes of the map as unbreakable mega blobs. There's plenty of room for fun preset events that don't involve dumping loads of deathstacks onshore and calling it a day. Small duchy level invasions from across the sea do sound like a step in the right direction, I'll grant.
I think, given the size of the map, invasions that can consistently take a kingdom or two are fine. True, homogenity leads to boringness, but invasions also really shake things up in local politics and rarely are able to establish a regime that remains at anything like its greatest extent. I think having a nice big dose of "not America" administered to a certain portion of the map every once in a while is just fine.

I know, I know, I'm quoting a month-old post, but I feel the need to inform you that this is, well, wrong. It seems to be a pretty common misconception that polygamy is permissible in the Mormon faith, when it is only so in a couple of tiny fringe groups, none of which are in any way associated with the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, any Mormon found to be practicing polygamy is automatically excommunicated. This has been the case since 1890. So to have this "feature" in this mod would be a misrepresentation of the faith as a whole.

Aside from that little detail, this mod is looking pretty good. I'm actually tempted to load up 2.3.2 in order to try it out (currently I use 2.1.4).

-A Mormon
Those fringe groups may not be a very substantial portion of the population, but you're still going to see a lot of those big houses they build it you drive through central Utah. And remember that polygamy was only banned when the army was sent to Salt Lake, under the reasoning that God wants his people to follow the laws of their nation. Given that the nation and army are gone, a return to polygamy is well within reasonable potential theological drift for a 600 year timespan. It's definitely not a greater divergence than the other Christian faiths contain.

Yeah a lot of people do not realize polygamy stopped in the 1800s. I am more concerned about the lack of 12 apostles in game. Which could be done using the cardinal system from sons of abraham.
It mostly stopped at the end of the 1800s and still hasn't entirely stopped. I agree about the apostles/cardinals though, it really is a perfect fit for that mechanic. Although I don't know if they can actually be renamed to "apostle" or not. Either way, while the devs are of course free to make their own decisions, it would seem like a very odd choice to me if they didn't add this in sooner or later.
 

Santander

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Given that the nation and army are gone, a return to polygamy is well within reasonable potential theological drift for a 600 year timespan. It's definitely not a greater divergence than the other Christian faiths contain.
[...]
It mostly stopped at the end of the 1800s and still hasn't entirely stopped.

I strongly disagree with you, and if I ever do end up playing this mod I'll be fixing that particular mistake. I do not think that this is something that the church would ever change.
 

Ofaloaf

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With the obvious caveats that it is not to me but to the dev team to decide what is and is not appropriate in the mod: please don't go overboard with invasions. Hordes as handled by CK2 are generally not very interesting and much more likely to reduce fun gameplay by homogenizing large swathes of the map as unbreakable mega blobs. There's plenty of room for fun preset events that don't involve dumping loads of deathstacks onshore and calling it a day. Small duchy level invasions from across the sea do sound like a step in the right direction, I'll grant.
tbh even though we've talked about some things here a there, there's still a lot we haven't really fully planned out. Hordes are one of them; whatever talk is happening now probably has only a tangential relationship to whatever will actually pop up when something gets worked on there. Part of the reason I haven't intervened in the current ongoing discussion is because of that; the other reason is that the discussion seems to boil down to "this is a neat thing" and "no it isn't" and then there's a bunch of other static surrounding those two points and it kind of just turns into white noise after a certain point and my eyes glaze over.

What I can say with certainty is that if it turns out whatever's implemented sucks, we'll work on it or just flat-out remove it, depending on if it's fixable or not. If it turns out we went overboard with hordes, we'll fix it. If not, then I'll laugh maniacally as California burns.

I know, I know, I'm quoting a month-old post, but I feel the need to inform you that this is, well, wrong. It seems to be a pretty common misconception that polygamy is permissible in the Mormon faith, when it is only so in a couple of tiny fringe groups, none of which are in any way associated with the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In fact, any Mormon found to be practicing polygamy is automatically excommunicated. This has been the case since 1890. So to have this "feature" in this mod would be a misrepresentation of the faith as a whole.

Aside from that little detail, this mod is looking pretty good. I'm actually tempted to load up 2.3.2 in order to try it out (currently I use 2.1.4).

-A Mormon

Yeah a lot of people do not realize polygamy stopped in the 1800s. I am more concerned about the lack of 12 apostles in game. Which could be done using the cardinal system from sons of abraham.
I know I've done a disservice to modern Mormonism in the game in that regard, and I'm not entirely happy with it. Partially it was just that polygamy wasn't present anywhere on the map at that point, and using Mormonism as a vehicle to have it present in the game seemed like an obvious option, especially since Utah was being worked on at the time. I figured it could be justified by saying that the declaration which struck polygamy from the church could itself be stricken at some point in the 700-year period between the initial manifesto on the matter and the game's starting date. I have also varied things amongst the heresies, so the Bickertonites and Godbeites are monogamous alternatives.

Part of the problem is also just that I don't know how Mormonism would offer much distinct stuff without all that. With a cardinal-system Quorum of the Twelve* and monogamy, how much would Mormonism differ in-game from the Catholics and Ursulines?


*Cardinal-system Quorum of the Twelve stuff is totally legit and I should've started working on that a while ago.
 

Santander

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Another alternative would be to have mainstream Mormonism be monogamous while having one or more of the heresies be polygamous, the way it is in real life. After all, if you're dealing with real-life religions then you really probably should be at least mostly correct. Besides, there really doesn't need to be that much difference between Christian groups in the mod because, well, they're all Christian and there's not very many dramatic differences between them in real life anyway.

EDIT: Are there many changes made to other real-life religions at this point? Or is, for example, Catholicism more or less the same as in vanilla?
 

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EDIT: Are there many changes made to other real-life religions at this point?
The Pope's in St. Louis and has the Knights of Columbus as literal knights at his command, so there's that. Anabaptism's also a bit odd and really ought to get some jain mechanics mixed in to reflect some of that pacifist ethos in there. As it is, the Amish can holy war with the best of 'em, which isn't an accurate reflection of that strain of Anabaptism at all.

Catholicism should get more work done on it- I really do want to get some St. Leibowitz action going on at some point- but the mod overall is fairly barebones, and leaning on vanilla events and mechanics is easy enough to do while the rest of everything is getting sorted out still.
 

Thorpe

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Hey Ofa, as long as you're around, do you know what's up with the mac version and its crashing to desktop? If it's just something like a misplaced capitalization in Defines I'd go and fix it myself, but I don't know where to start.
 

Cruxador

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Another alternative would be to have mainstream Mormonism be monogamous while having one or more of the heresies be polygamous, the way it is in real life. After all, if you're dealing with real-life religions then you really probably should be at least mostly correct. Besides, there really doesn't need to be that much difference between Christian groups in the mod because, well, they're all Christian and there's not very many dramatic differences between them in real life anyway.
This would definitely be the most realistic way to go about it, and mormonism is probably the best suited of all the religions in America to remain true to its original form, since it has a strong central authority which is heavily localized in America. However, I think the similarity to real life actually may be a bit of a detractor since it enhances potential to cause offense. Indeed, that's kind of what's happening now – few people would get offended at polygamous revelationists, for example, and fewer still at polygamy in a totally fictional religion, yet you're not happy with it in a fictional future variant of mormonism, and I think the less clear it is that this is a fictional divergence, the more likely such things are to upset people. If the devs do choose to cleave to reality, then it becomes somewhat necessary (in my opinion) to put a pretty significant effort to doing the religion justice in a way that there isn't otherwise, which can entail a substantial amount of work not only into mormonism in general (which can potentially be outsourced to some enthusiastic mormon) but into the heresies, many of which few people have a particularly deep knowledge of.

And then, of course, if default mormonism is monogamous I reckon it's probable that most (non-mormon) players will just take up the cause of whatever heresy happens to notice that there's no longer a big federal goverment telling them they have to be.
 

TKFS

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I think it could make for an interesting starting set up if Deseret was divided amongst the mainstream, non-polygamous, Mormons, with a few dukes/counts following a polygamous heresy. That sounds pretty fun to me, at least, since conflict in this game is always more fun than no conflict
 

Ofaloaf

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Hey Ofa, as long as you're around, do you know what's up with the mac version and its crashing to desktop? If it's just something like a misplaced capitalization in Defines I'd go and fix it myself, but I don't know where to start.
Augh, it's still doing that? Shit, I thought that got fixed, and then I spaced out for a bit there.

If the devs do choose to cleave to reality, then it becomes somewhat necessary (in my opinion) to put a pretty significant effort to doing the religion justice in a way that there isn't otherwise, which can entail a substantial amount of work not only into mormonism in general (which can potentially be outsourced to some enthusiastic mormon) but into the heresies, many of which few people have a particularly deep knowledge of.
That's the crux (ba-dum pssh) of the problem. Catholicism we can even get away with a bit of divergence, since just by its presence in St. Louis it's pretty clearly off-kilter a bit already.

I'd be weary of getting an enthusiastic member of the LDS to do the Mormonism stuff, though. It's best to assume that with any facet of the mod (and the game), the player knows very little going into it, and will need to be introduced to things and have bits explained to them, at least a bit. Someone deeply involved in a subject matter, I fear, would be more likely to create something which while clever and nice to other people who already know the subject, could confuse new people. Someone enthusiastic about a subject matter, in turn, could have a tendency to skew things in favor of whatever subject their interest is in, well beyond what makes sense or works well for gameplay balance. I know my own social and political biases have slipped into the mod in several ways, and trying to keep that sort of thing in check is enough work without having to mind another person's potential biases and skews at the same time.

I think it could make for an interesting starting set up if Deseret was divided amongst the mainstream, non-polygamous, Mormons, with a few dukes/counts following a polygamous heresy. That sounds pretty fun to me, at least, since conflict in this game is always more fun than no conflict
One thing I was aiming to do with Utah was to have actually a decently large realm out west somewhere. It's mostly small counties and two-prov duchies out there, and having something big out that way would, in its own way, add some variety to gameplay in the region.
 

DarkReborn

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Anabaptism's also a bit odd and really ought to get some jain mechanics mixed in to reflect some of that pacifist ethos in there. As it is, the Amish can holy war with the best of 'em, which isn't an accurate reflection of that strain of Anabaptism at all.

Yeah, the idea to give them Jain mechanics is good, but remember that some of them are hardcoded to the Jain religion, like the +30 vassal opinion and reduced revolt risk modifiers ( You can add those into the character_modifier scope of the religion, though. ).

Also, I suggest that the Anabaptists should have some kind of positive stewardship character modifier ( Like Buddhism has with Learning in vanilla ), to represent emphasis on manual labour and their expertise in organization of small communities ( Both would come in handy in a feudal society, I guess ).
 

Voltspark

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Speaking as a non-Mormon with a Mormon best friend (He's actually currently serving his mission.), I would say that the mainstream Mormons shouldn't have polygamy, but should have a heresy that does. If you want to make them stand out from mainstream Christians, maybe give them the ability to send young men to proselytize in non-Mormon lands, using something similar to the wandering Consumerist merchant mechanics that are already implemented.
 

Santander

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I would suggest changing mainstream Mormonism to monogamy, getting rid of the Godbeites, as they died out in the 1880s, and the Strangites, as they're almost gone too, and replace them with the Fundamentalists and the Community of Christ, each of which currently exist in larger numbers.

Indeed, that's kind of what's happening now – few people would get offended at polygamous revelationists, for example, and fewer still at polygamy in a totally fictional religion, yet you're not happy with it in a fictional future variant of mormonism, and I think the less clear it is that this is a fictional divergence, the more likely such things are to upset people.

Sorry if you thought I was offended. I'm actually just trying to be helpful.