After the End - A post-apocalyptic America mod

[GreatWyrmGold]

Essentially any character that takes the theology focus and can have the convert to heresy event fire for them can have it as an option, but the AI chance on the option is weighted so that the AI is very unlikely to trigger it. In that regard, if I keep developing this thing, I may add a few checks that basically nerf the ability of random nobodies to cause a religious upheaval. (Probably by making the Quorum of the Twelve execute them and remove the flags the events trigger.)
Right now the only checks implemented are that the odds of each outcome are influenced by the learning stat.

So, if I understand correctly, any theology-focused Mormon has a chance of getting an event which lets him decide which side is the heresy? Or does the number/skill of people on each side decide?

Spoiler

*facepalm* I am a Mormon. As I said in other posts, I am focusing on Mormonism because that's what I am familiar with. It is my personal belief that Mormonism wouldn't change quite as radically as the mod (not to mention you) makes out. When you become more knowledgeable about the internal workings of Mormonism than an actual Mormon is, feel free to come and dictate how I should view my faith.

As a Midwesterner, I can confidently say that we wouldn't descend into neo-Nordic human-sacrificing barbarism. There, now you have the same kind of first-hand account for religion in that area. Will you change that part of the mod?

No. I am not a Southerner; never have been. I would not presume to try and dictate the portrayal of a region of which I have no firsthand knowledge.

So, wait...are you saying that you think the South turning neo-Confederate is plausible...or that you just don't care about this mod incorrectly representing any group you aren't a part of?

I personally believe that polygamy would be re-banned long before the mod's start date, if only because the original implementation lasted a mere fifty years or so. So, yeah, my submod probably won't include that much.

WE GET IT! Stop complaining about any mention that polygamy is the default setting for Mormonism in this mod!

From what I've read, most LDS splinter groups (for example) still consider the term "Mormon" to be derogatory. The very fact that the faith is labelled with this moniker suggests that it is a representation of mainstream Mormonism, even if that wasn't the original intention (which, again, I haven't seen any evidence of).

Okay, two things.
1. It's based on stereotypes, just like everything else in this mod. I'd say the name "Mormon" goes with the stereotypes.
2. You haven't seen any evidence that the Mormon faith isn't based on the mainstream modern Mormon faith...despite A. the lack of anything based directly on modern cultural groups without being heavily distorted (*cough* sports teams *cough) and B. the fact that you've been complaining over multiple pages about how its one (current) gimmick is directly opposed to modern Mormon doctrine.

 

[Shade2]

Hey guys, long time lover of the mod! But Devs, can you clarify something for me? I'm tinkering with a sub-mod for Sol Invicta, but what is the Lightbringer figure the religion mentions? I'm working on the assumption it's something like a Jesus/Messiah prophetic figure that will come and drive out the darkness/save the light of the world at the end of time in the fight against the Dark Father? Is that theory somewhere in the ballpark? It's not absolutely relevant to what I'm doing, I'm just curious since it says the religion is a mix of Aztec beliefs and Christianity, and I want to know what it leans more towards.

A little-known figure from mythology called Lucifer Morningstar.

 

[SovereignGrave]

I've always been curious, is there any particular reason that DC is controlled by a theocracy? Does it have something to do with the character being President?

 

[IamOzymandias]

Why are people so obsessed with his mod? If you don't like it don't play it. I don't play the empire of the USA submod because I don't want to play it. It's not like he is trying to force convert you to Mormonism.

Regarding slavery, I think the base paradigm should be "everyone gets it" with specific exceptions for religions that definitely shouldn't. Slavery was pretty widespread in the old days that CK2 represents and which AtE thus emulates. Aside from Jains, I can't think of any religion or culture that was really against it.

Definitely too many. There's no reason to lump all Christians together like this, and the pacific natives should definitely have slavery by any possible measure. I don't see any reason for others aside from Americanists and Rastafarians to be particularly anti-slavery, especially with regards to the cultures. And if the anti-slavery is a feature of religions and cultures, it should be limited only to those which specifically oppose slavery, not just those who might have a reason not to have it. Others could merely start with slavery illegal as a law.


You do realize that almost all the religions in the game are based on small splinters, right? Consider that in catholicism, belief in witchcraft was heresy around the time that vanilla CK2 starts, yet there were still a ton of witch burnings in the high middle ages. That was with no real impetus other than the central authority of the church lacking adequate communication to the peasants, who maintained vestiges of indigenous belief. Now, we're talking about a practice that was originally part of the mainline religion, which was banned (at least in the minds of some) for political reasons, and which currently has proponents willing to wear the moniker of "heretic" in order to maintain. Now, throw that situation into a non-specific apocalypse where high-population urban cultures are overrun by rural fringe beliefs in pretty much every situation, and (if we're assuming that no religion is objectively correct, which is necessary from a design standpoint) it's kind of preposterous that polygamy wouldn't resurge.

Yeah, something like that could be interesting.

Assuming infallibility, anyway, and assuming that antediluvian scriptures remain more important than the traditions of the first few post-diluvian resurgent fringe traditions. Neither are reasonable assumptions under the premises of After the End.

That doesn't in any way contradict what you quoted.[/QUOTE]


Slavery was actually not wry widespread during the time period of ckii. Large scale slave economies like the ones that the GOT mod is attempting to emulate would not have been present during the time period with such large scale slavery being limited to the fringes (of both the game's timeline and the people). While no one objected to slavery, the presence of serfs and peasants made them unnecessary. Those slaves that were around would have been relegated to services in court or "house slaves" who would have filled lower functions, or occasionally filling posts in the bureacracy. Representing medieval slavery as if it were Rome or Volantis's would be incredibly inaccurate.

 

[Shade2]

Yes, there are tons of different ways slavery and similar systems have existed in history. American-style ethnic slavery was unprecedented in its scale and intention.

 

[Santander]

This is the last post I intend to make in this thread until I release my submod (which should be on Saturday, if I don't encounter some overwhelming problem). As this post is part of a discussion that has gone way off topic, I will be taking a page out of GreatWyrmGold's book and spoilering most of it.

Spoiler

As a Midwesterner, I can confidently say that we wouldn't descend into neo-Nordic human-sacrificing barbarism. There, now you have the same kind of first-hand account for religion in that area. Will you change that part of the mod?

No, as I am not you, and thus your firsthand knowledge is not my firsthand knowledge, which happens to be the firsthand knowledge I am working with. Additionally, my submod doesn't happen to cover the Midwest. If it ever does, I will happily seek you out to serve as a consultant/partner. Thank you.

So, wait...are you saying that you think the South turning neo-Confederate is plausible...or that you just don't care about this mod incorrectly representing any group you aren't a part of?

No, I am saying that I am making a submod, primarily for my own use, that happens to correct what I see as misconceptions and falsehoods about the area in which I prefer to play, along with adding flavor to said area. I am going to publish it here so that anyone else who happens to want to may use it as well. As I am not intending to play in the South, the South is not the area on which I will be focusing my efforts. You may use my submod if you so wish. If you have no intention of doing so, then I don't see why it matters to you that I am making it.

WE GET IT! Stop complaining about any mention that polygamy is the default setting for Mormonism in this mod!

I am not complaining. You are.

Okay, two things.
1. It's based on stereotypes, just like everything else in this mod. I'd say the name "Mormon" goes with the stereotypes.

I never said it wasn't and I never said it didn't. If you actually bothered to read my post, you would see that. The term "Mormon" is a convenient identifier, and most convenient identifiers are stereotypes.

2. You haven't seen any evidence that the Mormon faith isn't based on the mainstream modern Mormon faith...despite A. the lack of anything based directly on modern cultural groups without being heavily distorted (*cough* sports teams *cough) and B. the fact that you've been complaining over multiple pages about how its one (current) gimmick is directly opposed to modern Mormon doctrine.

Here, we seem to have had a failure of communication, and it seems to have been mostly my fault for not being clearer. What I'd intended to say was this: mainstream Mormons like myself have largely embraced the moniker of "Mormon", while, according to what I've read, splinter groups, for the most part, continue to reject it. Thus, it follows that the "Mormons" in the mod are a continuation of the mainstream church, as it is the only one that I know of that has embraced the term. I have not been complaining against gimmicks, I have been attempting to point out that there is a lack of plausibility with the current setup and that I intend to create a completely optional submod addressing that.

If you have any other concerns, I would be happy to continue this discussion over PM. I've cluttered the main thread of this fine mod enough.

 

[Voltspark]

So, if I understand correctly, any theology-focused Mormon has a chance of getting an event which lets him decide which side is the heresy? Or does the number/skill of people on each side decide?

What I have implemented is that the event from the theology focus where the character can convert to heresy has a new option for Mormon characters that replaces the "perhaps it isn't meant to be taken literally" option with a new one that the AI is extremely unlikely to choose, and won't choose if they are lustful, craven, or paranoid.

The option I added fires another event in a few days where the character has dug through church archives and found fragments of pre-apocalypse condemnations of polygamy. This prompts them to divorce any extra wives they may have. They then approach the Quorum of the Twelve and the President, presenting their findings.

There are three outcomes:
The first, which is more likely if the character who triggered the events has a learning stat less than 10, is that the church labels them a heretic, no one agrees with their arguments. The character gains the heresiarch trait and Restorationist becomes a heresy of Mormon, but nobody other than the character that triggered the event chain will convert.

The second is more likely if the character who triggered the event has a learning stat above ten, having the church declare them a heretic, but about a third of the Mormon provinces and rulers will side with the newly branded heretic, flipping to the new heresy.

The third option is more likely if the character has a learning stat above 15, and has the church accept their findings. Mormon becomes a heresy of Restorationist, the Quorum of the Twelve title is destroyed and replaced with the Restorationist Presidency, and 75% of Mormon rulers and provinces convert to Restorationist.

Essentially, the character that takes the option will trigger Restorationist becoming a heresy or will make it become the main branch, with their learning stat determining how many people they can convince the documents they found are genuine.

 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why are people so obsessed with his mod? If you don't like it don't play it. I don't play the empire of the USA submod because I don't want to play it. It's not like he is trying to force convert you to Mormonism.

It bugs me that he's obsessed with making Mormonism accurate to the modern-day version of the religion without giving a damn about any other religion or culture. It bugs me more that he doesn't seem to understand the hypocrisy in acting like Mormonism being polygamous is so horrible but Midwesterners being Vikings and many Mexicans reverting to Mesoamerican blood sacrifice is completely A-OK.

Spoiler

No, as I am not you, and thus your firsthand knowledge is not my firsthand knowledge, which happens to be the firsthand knowledge I am working with. Additionally, my submod doesn't happen to cover the Midwest. If it ever does, I will happily seek you out to serve as a consultant/partner.

That's a pretty weak excuse. What, do you not trust me? Isn't the idea of the Midwest turning Norse inherently absurd, particularly compared to the idea that a minor sect with some beliefs which would be convenient in a post-apocalyptic world became dominant?
And why aren't you covering the midwest?

Thank you.No, I am saying that I am making a submod, primarily for my own use, that happens to correct what I see as misconceptions and falsehoods about the area in which I prefer to play, along with adding flavor to said area. I am going to publish it here so that anyone else who happens to want to may use it as well. As I am not intending to play in the South, the South is not the area on which I will be focusing my efforts. You may use my submod if you so wish. If you have no intention of doing so, then I don't see why it matters to you that I am making it.

If you're making it for your own use, why were you making such a fuss about it and how Mormons aren't polygamous?

I am not complaining. You are.

I don't know what I can say to this. You've been complaining at anyone arguing that polygamous Mormons in AtE are actually reasonable, especially the ones who point to periods of time when polygamy wasn't a problem.

I never said it wasn't and I never said it didn't. If you actually bothered to read my post, you would see that. The term "Mormon" is a convenient identifier, and most convenient identifiers are stereotypes.

'
...You seemed to be going somewhere with this.

Here, we seem to have had a failure of communication, and it seems to have been mostly my fault for not being clearer. What I'd intended to say was this: mainstream Mormons like myself have largely embraced the moniker of "Mormon", while, according to what I've read, splinter groups, for the most part, continue to reject it. Thus, it follows that the "Mormons" in the mod are a continuation of the mainstream church, as it is the only one that I know of that has embraced the term. I have not been complaining against gimmicks, I have been attempting to point out that there is a lack of plausibility with the current setup and that I intend to create a completely optional submod addressing that.

If you have any other concerns, I would be happy to continue this discussion over PM. I've cluttered the main thread of this fine mod enough.

So...it bothers you that Mormons aren't realistic, but you don't give a damn about how unrealistic the resurgence of Norse, Mesoamerican, and other paganism are. You're made at the mod portraying Mormons as polygamous, but portraying Midwesterners and Mexicans as engaging in blood sacrifice isn't something to be worried about? And don't give me that crap about lacking personal experience with being a Midwesterner or Mexican. The idea that them engaging in blood sacrifice is plausible is more offensive than suggesting that only groups you belong to need to be portrayed realistically.
[/spoiler]

 

[Santander]

Spoiler

It bugs me that he's obsessed with making Mormonism accurate to the modern-day version of the religion without giving a damn about any other religion or culture. It bugs me more that he doesn't seem to understand the hypocrisy in acting like Mormonism being polygamous is so horrible but Midwesterners being Vikings and many Mexicans reverting to Mesoamerican blood sacrifice is completely A-OK.

I'm not the one obsessed here. You, however, seem to be obsessed with trying to prove me wrong and/or getting me to cancel my project. Neither one is going to happen at this rate.

That's a pretty weak excuse. What, do you not trust me? Isn't the idea of the Midwest turning Norse inherently absurd, particularly compared to the idea that a minor sect with some beliefs which would be convenient in a post-apocalyptic world became dominant?
And why aren't you covering the midwest?

Because my submod covers Mormonism, and there are too few Mormons in the Midwest for me to bother with it. If you want a submod covering the Midwest, make it yourself. I do not plan to play in the Midwest, so I am not focusing on the Midwest.

If you're making it for your own use, why were you making such a fuss about it and how Mormons aren't polygamous?

I'm, er, not. You are. I'm trying to end this off-topic discussion on a civil note. Please work with me on that.

I don't know what I can say to this. You've been complaining at anyone arguing that polygamous Mormons in AtE are actually reasonable, especially the ones who point to periods of time when polygamy wasn't a problem.

Do we really have to go over this again? I am not the one complaining right now, you are. I am making a submod to address what I feel are misrepresentations and inaccuracies in the area in which I plan to spend most, if not all, of my time playing this mod. If you don't want to use my submod, then do us all a favor and just ignore it.

...You seemed to be going somewhere with this.

What are you trying to say here?

So...it bothers you that Mormons aren't realistic, but you don't give a damn about how unrealistic the resurgence of Norse, Mesoamerican, and other paganism are. You're made at the mod portraying Mormons as polygamous, but portraying Midwesterners and Mexicans as engaging in blood sacrifice isn't something to be worried about? And don't give me that crap about lacking personal experience with being a Midwesterner or Mexican. The idea that them engaging in blood sacrifice is plausible is more offensive than suggesting that only groups you belong to need to be portrayed realistically.

The very idea of the world experiencing a disaster that forces everybody back into the Middle Ages is implausible at best. Personal experience is all I have to work with, so my lack thereof is not "crap". If I've offended you, it was unintentional. If you dislike what I'm doing with my submod, then don't use it. Stop trying to make me feel bad, because it's not going to change anything.

If, for some odd reason, you want to continue this conversation, then send me a PM. This is not the place.

 

[laserytuna]

To break away from the Mormon debate on way, can we get some Finnish troop sprites for Yoopers? It makes sense with the Upper Peninsula having been highly populated by People from Finland

 

[Khan of Italy]

As it stands, I've given Gaians, Native Americans, Cetics, Americanists (and the heresies), Mormons, Christians, Rastafarians and Celticists anti-slavery. In addition, Africans, Caribbeans, and AfroAnglo cultures are anti-slavery. Norse Pagans, Mesoamericans, and Occulticists are pro-slavery. As well as the Cult of Mars.

I am thinking of limiting anti-slavery a bit and removing the Mormons and Christians and Celticists. In addition, I think I'll limit Norse/Occulticists to Thralldom (taking prisoners, but no slave trade).

However, while the slavery mechanics generally work, I've run into a problem of making the "Laws" work. For some reason, when I start the game, all the "laws" are locked, despite satisfying the conditions to change the law to Slavery Legal, Slavery Illegal, Thralldom, etc.

While making Americanists anti-slavery makes sense (Lincoln!), I think Jeffersonian heretics (as well as any other heresy based around a figure that predates Lincoln, I'm not sure if there are others) should allow it.

 

[Voltspark]

I've finished the event chain that I thought up with a Mormon theology-focused character discovering pre-calamity condemnation of polygamy, along with the work for setting up the "Restorationist" religion that results from it. I've packaged the files here for anyone interested. The event chain is triggered by a zealous Mormon taking the theology focus.

 

[bontanel]

Spoiler

Spoiler

I'm not the one obsessed here. You, however, seem to be obsessed with trying to prove me wrong and/or getting me to cancel my project. Neither one is going to happen at this rate.Because my submod covers Mormonism, and there are too few Mormons in the Midwest for me to bother with it. If you want a submod covering the Midwest, make it yourself. I do not plan to play in the Midwest, so I am not focusing on the Midwest.I'm, er, not. You are. I'm trying to end this off-topic discussion on a civil note. Please work with me on that.Do we really have to go over this again? I am not the one complaining right now, you are. I am making a submod to address what I feel are misrepresentations and inaccuracies in the area in which I plan to spend most, if not all, of my time playing this mod. If you don't want to use my submod, then do us all a favor and just ignore it.What are you trying to say here?The very idea of the world experiencing a disaster that forces everybody back into the Middle Ages is implausible at best. Personal experience is all I have to work with, so my lack thereof is not "crap". If I've offended you, it was unintentional. If you dislike what I'm doing with my submod, then don't use it. Stop trying to make me feel bad, because it's not going to change anything.

If, for some odd reason, you want to continue this conversation, then send me a PM. This is not the place.

To be fair, I agree with GreatWyrmGold. It's unrealistic that post apocalyptic Mormonism wouldn't be based on simplistic interpretations of the holy books but rather western values. Making Mormonist reformable into a more open minded modern form as the main religion of a great post apocalyptic Empire? Now that would be an awesome submod that should be part of the main mod!

 

[Karzan]

While making Americanists anti-slavery makes sense (Lincoln!), I think Jeffersonian heretics (as well as any other heresy based around a figure that predates Lincoln, I'm not sure if there are others) should allow it.

Right now I'm running into a problem with the Slavery submod. Whenever I mouse over the "Slave Raid" CB, the game crashes. Doesn't have time for the text to appear. Trying to figure out what the hell is causing it to crash.

 

[Santander]

To be fair, I agree with GreatWyrmGold. It's unrealistic that post apocalyptic Mormonism wouldn't be based on simplistic interpretations of the holy books but rather western values. Making Mormonist reformable into a more open minded modern form as the main religion of a great post apocalyptic Empire? Now that would be an awesome submod that should be part of the main mod!

I'm afraid I may not fully understand what you're trying to say. If my interpretation is right, and please correct me if it's not, you want something other than what I doing (something that, in fact, Voltspark shared two posts above yours), and you disagree with me continuing with my idea. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. You don't need to play my submod, though I feel I must tell you that I intend to (eventually) provide much more flavor than merely a single event chain that happens to be dependent on a DLC that I don't own. I have no illusions that my work is ever going to be anything more than an unofficial add-on, so it won't be forced on anyone, least of all those who don't want it.

Right now I'm running into a problem with the Slavery submod. Whenever I mouse over the "Slave Raid" CB, the game crashes. Doesn't have time for the text to appear. Trying to figure out what the hell is causing it to crash.

I'm no coder, but I might be able to give you some help. What does the CB's code look like right now?

 

[Voltspark]

I'm afraid I may not fully understand what you're trying to say. If my interpretation is right, and please correct me if it's not, you want something other than what I doing (something that, in fact, Voltspark shared two posts above yours), and you disagree with me continuing with my idea. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. You don't need to play my submod, though I feel I must tell you that I intend to (eventually) provide much more flavor than merely a single event chain that happens to be dependent on a DLC that I don't own. I have no illusions that my work is ever going to be anything more than an unofficial add-on, so it won't be forced on anyone, least of all those who don't want it.

In hindsight I probably shouldn't have attached the event chain to a dlc, but I essentially needed a reason for a playable character to start digging in church archives.

 

[Santander]

In hindsight I probably shouldn't have attached the event chain to a dlc, but I essentially needed a reason for a playable character to start digging in church archives.

In a way to make it so more people could use it, perhaps you could try having it linked to the "scholar" or "mystic" lifestyle traits, as I believe they still have an event chain that allows characters to obtain them without Way of Life. Just a thought, of course; it's your work.

 

[Cruxador]

Since mods are inherently for people that are already heavily invested in CK2, I don't think it's a problem to require DLC for some event chains.

 

[Santander]

Since mods are inherently for people that are already heavily invested in CK2, I don't think it's a problem to require DLC for some event chains.

How so? There are plenty of people, myself included, who use mods and don't happen to own every single DLC ever released. In fact, I haven't purchased DLC since Sons of Abraham (though not because of it). While there are some mods that I am accordingly unable to use, this has not stopped me from being a rather dedicated CK2 player, and there are some (not usually including myself, and definitely not in this case) who might not appreciate the unnecessary limiting of features in an otherwise mostly open mod. Of course, our opinions in this are somewhat moot, as neither of us are on the dev team (last I checked, at any rate, and that was just a couple minutes ago).

 

[Voltspark]

Since mods are inherently for people that are already heavily invested in CK2, I don't think it's a problem to require DLC for some event chains.

Just the same, I tend to lean on the side of caution when I script stuff to avoid DLC requirements as much as possible, especially for dlc like Way of Life that doesn't have as wide a scope of appeal as stuff like the Old Gods or Sword of Islam.