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After the End - A post-apocalyptic America mod
- Thread starter Ofaloaf
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This isn't accurate at all, but this isn't the place for theology discussions. Also, it's pretty clear you're semi-joking at least.
I do think occultists would take slaves. They do all sorts of rather creepy things, plus they'd need thralls for the occasional sacrifice to Cthulhu or Dagon.
Hm. I'm not sure that would really be workable game-mechanic-wise, at least not easily or prettily. You would first need two copies of Mormonism, one with polygamy and one without, and I don't think one title can be the religious head of two religions, so you'd also need two copies of the Quorum of the Twelve. This also brings in the problem that all of the current apostles would lose their positions in the transition, so there's that. So yeah, it's possible, but not easy or pretty.
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This talk about the Mormons reminded me of something I had been wondering earlier: would it make more sense for the king of Deseret to also be the head of the Mormon faith? I'm not incredibly familiar with Mormon history, but what I've read of the early phase especially gives me a theocratic wibe that isn't terribly concerned with the whole separation of the temporal and spiritual power thing.
Also, is the name of the starting ruling family a reference to something? Anthophile seems to mean lover of flowers, but I'm not seeing a connection to anything.
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I actually got bored and started scripting this as an event chain last night and it's almost done. So far the only issue I've ran into is the Apostles losing their positions. Essentially how I have it working is that I scripted a new copy of Mormonism that's its own branch in the religious group cannot be picked in the ruler designer. I made a fork in the "embrace heresy" event chain from the vanilla Theology focus that leads to the character essentially arguing against the practice of polygamy before the President and the Apostles. This has three different outcomes based on the character's learning stat:
1. The character is labeled a heretic, converts to "Restorationist," and Restorationist becomes a heresy of "Mormon"
2. The character is labeled a heretic, but about a third of the church agrees with their position and also become "Restorationist"
3. The church accepts their arguments, and a similar thing to the Great Schism getting mended in vanilla happens. 75% of Mormons become Restorationist, the Restorationist Presidency is established, and "Mormon" becomes a heresy of Restorationist.
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Why are you assuming that AtE Mormonism is supposed to be exactly the same as modern Mormonism? I've got ten bucks that says modern Mormonism isn't the same as it was sixty years ago, let alone six hundred sixty in the future, with a long period of societal upheaval. Are you going to complain about how the AtE Catholics abandoned the Roman papacy, or how Sagrado Corazon is a horribly inaccurate picture of Mexican Catholicism?
I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in making one religion or religious group accurate to their modern-day adherents while leaving everywhere else as stereotypes turned up to 11 and beyond. Polygamous Mormons are one of the less extreme examples of that. I don't think it would be going too far to say that you're insulting everyone else by saying that the religious (or cultural) practices which the mod exaggerates or gets wrong aren't important enough to correct.
I imagine that voudoun's origin in the traditions of slaves in the Gulf region and the Caribbean would make their distant descendants opposed to slavery.
Zombies are a good bit different from slaves. Slaves are either captured or born; zombies are punished. Also, the whole "lesser intellect" thing has a basis in fact for zombies.
I'm not sure Christians should be inherently biased either way, partly because "Christian" is an even broader label in AtE than IRL, and partly because real-life Christians had opinions on slavery more related to the social values of the day than their religion.
There are also arguments for the Holy Colombian Confederacy specifically being pro-slavery, simply due to After the End's tendency of taking regional/historical stereotypes to cinematic extremes.
Say, Santander, are you going to complain if the Holy Colombian Confederacy becomes the Civil War confederacy in a post-apocalyptic time instead of a more realistic empire which has a descendant of modern equal-rights culture?
To sacrifice, if nothing else. I can't think of any reason they wouldn't take slaves.
Maybe something like the Caliph of Islam in vanilla as far as mechanics go?
Every Mormon character, or just the head of religion or some other important person?
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Guys, Guys Guys...We made El Santo a semi-deity in ATE.
I think that should tell you all you need to know about how accurate we were trying to be.
I think that should tell you all you need to know about how accurate we were trying to be.
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Essentially any character that takes the theology focus and can have the convert to heresy event fire for them can have it as an option, but the AI chance on the option is weighted so that the AI is very unlikely to trigger it. In that regard, if I keep developing this thing, I may add a few checks that basically nerf the ability of random nobodies to cause a religious upheaval. (Probably by making the Quorum of the Twelve execute them and remove the flags the events trigger.)
Right now the only checks implemented are that the odds of each outcome are influenced by the learning stat.
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Well, I started the Restorationist event chain idea because right now the Mormons are one of the religions on the map with the least "flavor." They're essentially polygamous watered-down Catholics, so adding a few interesting events can't do anything but help. I would be just as inclined to make a possible reaction to the church re-banning polygamy be a new heretic faction insisting that polygamy is sacred and increasing the number of wives to some obscenely high number.
I also have the idea of turning Mormon missionaries into a mercenary title that isn't hireable, with their "Captain" offering to help infidels in defensive wars in exchange for conversion to Mormonism afterwards, but that's a bit harder to script.
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*facepalm* I am a Mormon. As I said in other posts, I am focusing on Mormonism because that's what I am familiar with. It is my personal belief that Mormonism wouldn't change quite as radically as the mod (not to mention you) makes out. When you become more knowledgeable about the internal workings of Mormonism than an actual Mormon is, feel free to come and dictate how I should view my faith.
No. I am not a Southerner; never have been. I would not presume to try and dictate the portrayal of a region of which I have no firsthand knowledge.
That could work for the Community of Christ, where succession was initially semi-hereditary, but it doesn't fit mainstream Mormonism. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
I personally believe that polygamy would be re-banned long before the mod's start date, if only because the original implementation lasted a mere fifty years or so. So, yeah, my submod probably won't include that much.
Still, the missionary idea is good. One way to make the mercenary title "unhireable" would be to vassalize it to a landless title. Then, when the group's services are accepted, the defending lord would vasalize it until the war ended, at which point the vassal contract would be transferred back to the original liege title. Does that make sense?
As it stands, I've given Gaians, Native Americans, Cetics, Americanists (and the heresies), Mormons, Christians, Rastafarians and Celticists anti-slavery. In addition, Africans, Caribbeans, and AfroAnglo cultures are anti-slavery. Norse Pagans, Mesoamericans, and Occulticists are pro-slavery. As well as the Cult of Mars.
I am thinking of limiting anti-slavery a bit and removing the Mormons and Christians and Celticists. In addition, I think I'll limit Norse/Occulticists to Thralldom (taking prisoners, but no slave trade).
However, while the slavery mechanics generally work, I've run into a problem of making the "Laws" work. For some reason, when I start the game, all the "laws" are locked, despite satisfying the conditions to change the law to Slavery Legal, Slavery Illegal, Thralldom, etc.
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I don't know about the others, but Mormonism happens to be anti-slavery in real life, or at least was when it was an issue. It would be rather immersion-breaking for me if Mormon rulers were allowed to hold slaves, seeing as the Book of Mormon itself speaks out against the practice.
As far as the laws go, have you tried making sure that titles have the laws initially set in the history files? That's the only thing I can think of that might fix it. Alternatively, you could try having a maintenance event that fires at game start and sets the law for each realm depending on religion or whatever.
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Regarding slavery, I think the base paradigm should be "everyone gets it" with specific exceptions for religions that definitely shouldn't. Slavery was pretty widespread in the old days that CK2 represents and which AtE thus emulates. Aside from Jains, I can't think of any religion or culture that was really against it.
[/QUOTE]Assuming infallibility, anyway, and assuming that antediluvian scriptures remain more important than the traditions of the first few post-diluvian resurgent fringe traditions. Neither are reasonable assumptions under the premises of After the End.
Definitely too many. There's no reason to lump all Christians together like this, and the pacific natives should definitely have slavery by any possible measure. I don't see any reason for others aside from Americanists and Rastafarians to be particularly anti-slavery, especially with regards to the cultures. And if the anti-slavery is a feature of religions and cultures, it should be limited only to those which specifically oppose slavery, not just those who might have a reason not to have it. Others could merely start with slavery illegal as a law.
You do realize that almost all the religions in the game are based on small splinters, right? Consider that in catholicism, belief in witchcraft was heresy around the time that vanilla CK2 starts, yet there were still a ton of witch burnings in the high middle ages. That was with no real impetus other than the central authority of the church lacking adequate communication to the peasants, who maintained vestiges of indigenous belief. Now, we're talking about a practice that was originally part of the mainline religion, which was banned (at least in the minds of some) for political reasons, and which currently has proponents willing to wear the moniker of "heretic" in order to maintain. Now, throw that situation into a non-specific apocalypse where high-population urban cultures are overrun by rural fringe beliefs in pretty much every situation, and (if we're assuming that no religion is objectively correct, which is necessary from a design standpoint) it's kind of preposterous that polygamy wouldn't resurge.
Yeah, something like that could be interesting.
[/QUOTE]Assuming infallibility, anyway, and assuming that antediluvian scriptures remain more important than the traditions of the first few post-diluvian resurgent fringe traditions. Neither are reasonable assumptions under the premises of After the End.
That doesn't in any way contradict what you quoted.
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Hey guys, long time lover of the mod! But Devs, can you clarify something for me? I'm tinkering with a sub-mod for Sol Invicta, but what is the Lightbringer figure the religion mentions? I'm working on the assumption it's something like a Jesus/Messiah prophetic figure that will come and drive out the darkness/save the light of the world at the end of time in the fight against the Dark Father? Is that theory somewhere in the ballpark? It's not absolutely relevant to what I'm doing, I'm just curious since it says the religion is a mix of Aztec beliefs and Christianity, and I want to know what it leans more towards.
LDS traditions are anti-slavery, so there's that.
Seeing as slavery is what it is, I would argue against going out of one's way to make it fit all faiths and cultures.
I have yet to see any evidence of this. From what I've read, most LDS splinter groups (for example) still consider the term "Mormon" to be derogatory. The very fact that the faith is labelled with this moniker suggests that it is a representation of mainstream Mormonism, even if that wasn't the original intention (which, again, I haven't seen any evidence of).
The vast majority of assumptions under the premises of AtE are unreasonable, thank you very much.
Wow. You just completely ignored the rest of that post. I was not trying to "contradict" anything; I was merely stating that I am working on what I know firsthand, and leaving to others the things that I don't. If I were a Norse polytheist, I would most likely be working to improve realism there. If I were a Catholic, same deal. Please stop taking my words out of context.
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I think the point they're trying to get across to you is that AtE isn't aiming for realism, it's aiming towards easily recognizable stereotypes that probably aren't true, but can work in a post-apocalyptic situation. They understand that polygamy wouldn't necessarily return in a real situation, but since the mod threw realism to the wind is shouldn't matter if any religion is doing what it should probably do.
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That's fine. I gave up months ago on getting changes made to the main mod. However, I should be able to announce that I'm making a submod and that my submod will have a specific focus without having everybody and their dog try to jump down my throat because I gave it the focus I did. I am not an AtE dev, and my submod will almost certainly not affect AtE's development. That's sort of the point of it being a submod in the first place. If I want realism in a specific area, I should be able to produce that for myself and not be told that I'm wrong for doing it the way I want.
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And that is your right to do so, we don't have to use your sub-mod at all so it shouldn't matter what you do with it as long as the devs don't care either.
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