After the End - A post-apocalyptic America mod

[Cruxador]

Ah, problem with Sagrado Corazón is that, I think that the previous icon's "radiance" you mention was more of a problem when resizing and cutting the source image ( The Ghost Dance icon had the same issue, but I couldn't find the source image for that one ), I stumbled upon the same issue and just manually removed and smoothed it down.

I wasn't referring to graphical issues, I think it's actually a matter of palette choice. First of all, google Sagrado Corazón to see how it's depicted in higher fidelity – it's basically a halo, and is pretty much always white or light yellow in actual religious art, and in drawings or tattoos tends to be black and white (as depicted in the previous version) but in that case the contrast of the two is the important factor.

Yeah, I was this close to using am eleggua effigy as icon, but finally settled for the dance axe since it translated more easily to 32px size.

Fair enough I suppose, but the version you have now seems lacking in visual detail as well. And I'm not sure the reason for color choice, aside from (I guess) not being the colors of any specific Orisha.[/QUOTE]

If any Mormons had a problem with the lack of a circle around the Moroni icon, they'd probably have a much bigger problem with the polygamy.

Well, they do. But considering how much the game emphasizes fringe groups and especially rural fringe groups, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the religion is now controlled by those guys with the huge houses and tons of wives down in central Utah, despite the fact that they're out of favor right now. After all, a big part of the argument against polygamy in the first place was based on the

 

[Karzan]

Well, they do. But considering how much the game emphasizes fringe groups and especially rural fringe groups, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the religion is now controlled by those guys with the huge houses and tons of wives down in central Utah, despite the fact that they're out of favor right now. After all, a big part of the argument against polygamy in the first place was based on the

Polygamy was only outlawed so that Utah could gain statehood, and some families fled to Mexico after the decision. It's not surprising at all that it would come back into vogue.

 

[Santander]

Well, they do. But considering how much the game emphasizes fringe groups and especially rural fringe groups, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the religion is now controlled by those guys with the huge houses and tons of wives down in central Utah, despite the fact that they're out of favor right now. After all, a big part of the argument against polygamy in the first place was based on the

Polygamy was only outlawed so that Utah could gain statehood and some families fled to Mexico after the decision. It's not surprising at all that it would come back into vogue.

Yeah, no. Seeing as anyone who practices polygamy is automatically excommunicated, there's pretty much no chance. I'm (eventually) going to post a submod bringing more realism to the LDS group, which will (among other things) relegate polygamy to heresies, where it belongs. The whole "Mormon polygamy" thing is a potentially offensive stereotype based in the 19th century, nothing more. There is no more truth to the idea of anybody other than small Mormon splinter groups practicing polygamy than there is to the idea of hillbillies practicing incest.

 

[Attalus]

stereotype

As if the mod wasn't built around stereotypes.
Don't know how it's more offensive than human sacrifices by the Mexicans or the Great Lakers ...

 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, Bethlehem was important before Jesus, due to being connected to David, in fact that's why early Christians claimed he was born in Bethlehem so he could claim descent from the King of the Jews. In reality he was probably born in Nazareth and the Bethlehem story was just propaganda, which is why a random unimportant poor city won't be made important all of a sudden.

...That's also a religious reason. I mean, it's not like the line of King David was still ruling the Jews.
(And it's not the reason people today care about Bethlehem, which is what I was talking about.)

It needs /something/ to make it worthwhile, so unless the first Mexican Pope gets martyred there, I just don't see any random province being made a holy site. (Also I don't think holy sites can change locations like that).

Again—not "any random province," the birthplace of the religion. Bethlehem. Jerusalem. Mecca. All cities that—whatever their other importance—are household names entirely due to important religious events which occurred within them.

Yeah, no. Seeing as anyone who practices polygamy is automatically excommunicated, there's pretty much no chance. I'm (eventually) going to post a submod bringing more realism to the LDS group, which will (among other things) relegate polygamy to heresies, where it belongs. The whole "Mormon polygamy" thing is a potentially offensive stereotype based in the 19th century, nothing more. There is no more truth to the idea of anybody other than small Mormon splinter groups practicing polygamy than there is to the idea of hillbillies practicing incest.

Basing mainstream AtE Mormonism along the lines of small Mormon splinter groups is more realistic than basing AtE Midwest religion on a football team from Minnesota. If you do make that mod, will you also remove all the cinematically-savage neo-paganism which wouldn't realistically exist in a post-apocalyptic North America, or do you only care that Mormons are accurate to modern Mormonism in a feudal future where most of Florida is dominated by a tribe that worships George Washington and Walt Disney?

 

[Santander]

Basing mainstream AtE Mormonism along the lines of small Mormon splinter groups is more realistic than basing AtE Midwest religion on a football team from Minnesota. If you do make that mod, will you also remove all the cinematically-savage neo-paganism which wouldn't realistically exist in a post-apocalyptic North America, or do you only care that Mormons are accurate to modern Mormonism in a feudal future where most of Florida is dominated by a tribe that worships George Washington and Walt Disney?

Uh... what? Mormonism is a real religion that exists in real life. I'm merely planning to fix mistakes and inconsistencies in said real religion. If you don't like my submod idea, you don't have any need to use it.

 

[Voltspark]

Yeah, no. Seeing as anyone who practices polygamy is automatically excommunicated, there's pretty much no chance. I'm (eventually) going to post a submod bringing more realism to the LDS group, which will (among other things) relegate polygamy to heresies, where it belongs. The whole "Mormon polygamy" thing is a potentially offensive stereotype based in the 19th century, nothing more. There is no more truth to the idea of anybody other than small Mormon splinter groups practicing polygamy than there is to the idea of hillbillies practicing incest.

Considering the context given by the developers, I feel like "fixing" Mormonism would be more suited as an event chain to add some flavor to the group. I would leave the AtE Mormon faith as it is, and add an event chain where someone discovers documentation of that excommunication you're talking about, and attempts to restore the church. Depending on the outcome of the event chain, either the Church could immediately accept and the "Mormon" faith would be mostly replaced with a clone that isn't polygamous, or the church could reject the discovery and the clone becomes a heresy that works in a similar manner to Fraticelli or Iconoclasts in vanilla.

 

[Santander]

Considering the context given by the developers, I feel like "fixing" Mormonism would be more suited as an event chain to add some flavor to the group. I would leave the AtE Mormon faith as it is, and add an event chain where someone discovers documentation of that excommunication you're talking about, and attempts to restore the church. Depending on the outcome of the event chain, either the Church could immediately accept and the "Mormon" faith would be mostly replaced with a clone that isn't polygamous, or the church could reject the discovery and the clone becomes a heresy that works in a similar manner to Fraticelli or Iconoclasts in vanilla.

That's an idea. I probably won't go with it initially, as I've already got the basic outline more or less figured out as is, but thanks a ton for the suggestion. I may make a sub-submod that utilizes it.

 

[Karzan]

Uh... what? Mormonism is a real religion that exists in real life. I'm merely planning to fix mistakes and inconsistencies in said real religion. If you don't like my submod idea, you don't have any need to use it.

Norse Polytheism is real. It even has a revival in Iceland. Mayan and Aztec religions are real. Worship of the Sacred Death is real. All of them are in their most barbaric and savage forms in ATE. Furthermore, it's not as if polygamy is even too far back in Mormonism's history. Nor is its xenophobic and violent reception of outsiders (see the Mountain Meadows Massacre). Both of those aspects aren't part of the current Mormon faith/culture, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or shouldn't be meat for a funky mod like AtE. Hell, it's a relatively young religion -- unlike the revival of modern-day Norse polytheism, the adherents of which can at least say that their worst atrocities weren't less than two hundred years ago.

 

[Santander]

Norse Polytheism is real. It even has a revival in Iceland. Mayan and Aztec religions are real. Worship of the Sacred Death is real. All of them are in their most barbaric and savage forms in ATE. Furthermore, it's not as if polygamy is even too far back in Mormonism's history. Nor is its xenophobic and violent reception of outsiders (see the Mountain Meadows Massacre). Both of those aspects aren't part of the current Mormon faith/culture, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist or shouldn't be meat for a funky mod like AtE. Hell, it's a relatively young religion -- unlike the revival of modern-day Norse polytheism, the adherents of which can at least say that their worst atrocities weren't less than two hundred years ago.

You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I personally see no reason why I should be attacked for expressing my intent to create a submod primarily for my own use. I'm going to create it, and I plan to post it here for others to use if they so wish. If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine; nobody's forcing you.

In the end, my reason for working to improve Mormonism and not one of the other religions represented in the mod is that, as a Mormon, I know how Mormonism works. If someone who follows Norse polytheism chooses to post a submod focusing on their religion, will you criticize him too?

 

[Karzan]

You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I personally see no reason why I should be attacked for expressing my intent to create a submod primarily for my own use. I'm going to create it, and I plan to post it here for others to use if they so wish. If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine; nobody's forcing you.

In the end, my reason for working to improve Mormonism and not one of the other religions represented in the mod is that, as a Mormon, I know how Mormonism works. If someone who follows Norse polytheism chooses to post a submod focusing on their religion, will you criticize him too?

You're not being attacked, man. It's cool. Nobody here is criticizing you, personally, for whatever you want to do.

 

[Karzan]

Trying to adapt GoT's slavery system for this mod. Which religions/cultures should be barred from the slave trade and slave raids? I could simply limit it to my custom Caesar's Legion culture/religion, but I think that would be too limiting, if I am introducing slavery into this post-apocalyptic environment.

 

[EmperorG]

Trying to adapt GoT's slavery system for this mod. Which religions/cultures should be barred from the slave trade and slave raids? I could simply limit it to my custom Caesar's Legion culture/religion, but I think that would be too limiting, if I am introducing slavery into this post-apocalyptic environment.

Well I think Americanists shouldn't get it, what with them worshiping Lincoln, and Lincoln being "The Great Emancipator" and all. Aztec and Mayan faiths could get it, might help players get more sacrifice victims and such.

Christians as a whole might be iffy on the idea of slaves, depends on what they consider God's opinion on slaves, but I think at least some of them can use it.

Norse should definitely have it, since they lack a thrall system, slavery is the next best thing.

 

[luxaster]

HI guys! This is one of my favorite mods for CK2 and I really appreciate what's been done! I didn't realize how fun it was to play as a my home county until I saw CK2 moved to America, along with the general feel of the entire mod being great.

I do have one minor (tiny) request as per the above, which is that the duchy of Metroplex (also so cool you guys decided to make it its own duchy) should be duchy of THE Metroplex. I'm from DFW and that 'the' is hardly ever left out.

Also, I'm not sure how y'all chose to balance the provinces, but if you did it by modern population density than DFW I would say should have more holdings? But I'd have to actually check to see.

EDIT: I checked and am in error. I actually think that its Houston that should have more (Harris county is the 3rd most populous county in the country). Dallas and Tarrant are fine.

 

[Intrepica]

Yeah, no. Seeing as anyone who practices polygamy is automatically excommunicated, there's pretty much no chance. I'm (eventually) going to post a submod bringing more realism to the LDS group, which will (among other things) relegate polygamy to heresies, where it belongs. The whole "Mormon polygamy" thing is a potentially offensive stereotype based in the 19th century, nothing more. There is no more truth to the idea of anybody other than small Mormon splinter groups practicing polygamy than there is to the idea of hillbillies practicing incest.

It was my impression that, in a way beyond just social quirks of the pseudoutopian group they were, Mormon doctrine in the original church was very much warm to polygamous marriage, and it was social and legal pressure from the US government and others that was the impetus for dropping the practice. How did they defend it and why was this defense insufficient? Where would an apocalyptic Mormonism that weathered the end in a presumably theocratic Utah find cause to not revive the practice in their dogma? Is it something like Catholicism, where an ecumenical council said X even after some in the church flirted with Y, so now there is no chance of Y being entertained again?

 

[Voltspark]

It was my impression that, in a way beyond just social quirks of the pseudoutopian group they were, Mormon doctrine in the original church was very much warm to polygamous marriage, and it was social and legal pressure from the US government and others that was the impetus for dropping the practice. How did they defend it and why was this defense insufficient? Where would an apocalyptic Mormonism that weathered the end in a presumably theocratic Utah find cause to not revive the practice in their dogma? Is it something like Catholicism, where an ecumenical council said X even after some in the church flirted with Y, so now there is no chance of Y being entertained again?

I can actually answer that as a non-Mormon. The Latter-day Saints, despite their somewhat odd theology compared to other Christian Churches, still consider the Bible a sacred text. Paul condemns polygamy in his epistles. Further, even a very quick Google search can show that there are similar passages in the Book of Mormon. Looking at the LDS church as a historical institution, polygamy was only allowed in very specific circumstances that were supposedly prescribed by God in very specific circumstances.

This is why I would see the current state of the Mormon church in After the End as justifiable in a post-apocalyptic world, with the idea being essentially to repopulate, but it presents an interesting opportunity for an event chain to change the church's doctrine mid game to examine the re-emergence of polygamy.

 

[Santander]

It was my impression that, in a way beyond just social quirks of the pseudoutopian group they were, Mormon doctrine in the original church was very much warm to polygamous marriage, and it was social and legal pressure from the US government and others that was the impetus for dropping the practice. How did they defend it and why was this defense insufficient? Where would an apocalyptic Mormonism that weathered the end in a presumably theocratic Utah find cause to not revive the practice in their dogma? Is it something like Catholicism, where an ecumenical council said X even after some in the church flirted with Y, so now there is no chance of Y being entertained again?

Much of the reasoning behind the original adoption of polygamy was due to a shortage of LDS males, if I remember correctly. Polygamy was only practiced by a small percentage of members of the church, and then mainly as a way to provide support for widows, etc, who were disadvantaged in mid-1800s society due to not having husbands. While it did evolve away from that due to human desires, it was abolished once it did so. This abolishment happened to coincide more or less with Utah's statehood, causing many outside observers to attribute correlation with causation. I could see the church reinstituting it briefly in the event of a lot of LDS males being killed in the apocalypse, but it wouldn't last until the start date in that case.

That, at least, is my understanding as a Mormon myself.

I can actually answer that as a non-Mormon. The Latter-day Saints, despite their somewhat odd theology compared to other Christian Churches, still consider the Bible a sacred text. Paul condemns polygamy in his epistles. Further, even a very quick Google search can show that there are similar passages in the Book of Mormon. Looking at the LDS church as a historical institution, polygamy was only allowed in very specific circumstances that were supposedly prescribed by God in very specific circumstances.

This is why I would see the current state of the Mormon church in After the End as justifiable in a post-apocalyptic world, with the idea being essentially to repopulate, but it presents an interesting opportunity for an event chain to change the church's doctrine mid game to examine the re-emergence of polygamy.

Precisely. And ninja'd.

 

[Xykon]

That I think would be a neat event chain. Halfway through the game, say around the time of the various overseas invasions, the Quorum of the Twelve could declare polygamy to be no longer allowed by the church. Mormon rulers could either accept this, automatically divorcing any secondary wives they have and gaining increased relations with the Quorum, or reject it and piss them off mightily, possibly even becoming heretics in the process. It seems like it would be fairly simple to code.

 

[Karzan]

I can actually answer that as a non-Mormon. The Latter-day Saints, despite their somewhat odd theology compared to other Christian Churches, still consider the Bible a sacred text. Paul condemns polygamy in his epistles. Further, even a very quick Google search can show that there are similar passages in the Book of Mormon. Looking at the LDS church as a historical institution, polygamy was only allowed in very specific circumstances that were supposedly prescribed by God in very specific circumstances.

This is why I would see the current state of the Mormon church in After the End as justifiable in a post-apocalyptic world, with the idea being essentially to repopulate, but it presents an interesting opportunity for an event chain to change the church's doctrine mid game to examine the re-emergence of polygamy.

I call bullpucky on that, but this isn't the place to debate historical Mormon polygamy. Suffice to say, Smith instituted it and Brigham Young defended it.

Whatever the case, I like your explanation for the post-apocalyptic world bringing it back into vogue.

Well I think Americanists shouldn't get it, what with them worshiping Lincoln, and Lincoln being "The Great Emancipator" and all. Aztec and Mayan faiths could get it, might help players get more sacrifice victims and such.

Christians as a whole might be iffy on the idea of slaves, depends on what they consider God's opinion on slaves, but I think at least some of them can use it.

Norse should definitely have it, since they lack a thrall system, slavery is the next best thing.

The Americanists make sense as an anti-slavery faction, but I wonder about the Christians. The Holy Confederacy and the nobility of Dixie take their trappings from THE Confederacy, which was also Christian and fought for slavery. The Norse and Mesoamerican groups will be getting slaves... The Cetics probably not. The Gaians will be anti-slavery. What about the horselords of the west and the Native American religions? Given that they've become nomadic hordes, one could see them making use of slaves.

Furthermore, one wonders what the Voodoo/Santeria religions would do about slavery -- as while Haiti saw one of the only successful slave rebellions, the religion in ATE makes use of zombie slaves.

 

[Shade2]

I can actually answer that as a non-Mormon. The Latter-day Saints, despite their somewhat odd theology compared to other Christian Churches, still consider the Bible a sacred text. Paul condemns polygamy in his epistles. Further, even a very quick Google search can show that there are similar passages in the Book of Mormon. Looking at the LDS church as a historical institution, polygamy was only allowed in very specific circumstances that were supposedly prescribed by God in very specific circumstances.

Yeah but Paul condemned everything anyone else liked.