After the End - A post-apocalyptic America mod

[Attalus]

Do you reckon Paradox went and asked the pope if a game based on western christendom and the crusades was cool with him? Ideas want to be free, and on the internet they de facto are. There's no sense in trying to limit other folks because you're worried they might not make something as good as what you made, or whatever your motivation is.
Are you really gonna do much more with defining canon for Europe though? You already have British invaders set, and I don't see any reason why there'd need to be any more defined from America's perspective. What stands in the way of allowing an other mod to define a kind of "expanded universe" level of canon?

Well he could have asked first that's as simple as that. Personally I agree with AtE team there

 

[cziken201]

Wow, sorry, i caused a big ramble by not really asking to use the idea of this mod And dont worry, i wont use a bit of code from ATE.


Also, link: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?835157-MOD-After-The-End-But-What-About-Europe (name still to be changed)

EDIT: Better idea - maybe ill just ask now? I ask - Am i allowed to create a mod that uses not a single bit of code, nor art from your mod, and jsut borrows the idea of the universum created, that is absed in Europe?

 

[Worldcrusher]

Do you reckon Paradox went and asked the pope if a game based on western christendom and the crusades was cool with him? Ideas want to be free, and on the internet they de facto are. There's no sense in trying to limit other folks because you're worried they might not make something as good as what you made, or whatever your motivation is.

We're not just talking about ideas. We're talking about the work that went into making the mod something other than just an idea. 'A post-acpocalyptic mod for CK2 would be cool' is an idea. A mod you can download and play only comes about because of hundreds of hours of (unpaid) work. The only compensation the AtE team gets is the natural human buzz we all get from creating something worthwhile.

Are you really gonna do much more with defining canon for Europe though? You already have British invaders set, and I don't see any reason why there'd need to be any more defined from America's perspective. What stands in the way of allowing an other mod to define a kind of "expanded universe" level of canon?

That's fine, until the first time that AtE lore conflicts with WAE lore - and it will at some point. 'Atomicists are left deliberately vague' and 'Atomicists were founded by Igor 'The Tumescent' of Vladivostok and his beliefs were carried across the Atlantic by a flotilla of decommissioned nuclear submarines lashed together with sentient strands of radioactive tendon salvaged from the Cancer Pits of the Great Blast' reflect very different design standpoints and cannot both be true. I think that's what Klonsef and Ofaloaf are trying to avoid - situations where they have to take fanfic (over which they have no control) into account as they make design choices. WAE would be a much better idea if both modding teams were in contact and had to agree on lore points before progressing. What's fair, to me, is that the creators of the original mod have final say in what is or is not canon. As I said above, the only payment they receive from this mod comes in the form of satisfaction via creative expression, and it seems wrong to me to argue for mitigating that nominal payment simply because I want to pretend to be a post-apocalyptic nomad from Sussex instead of Ohio.

 

[cziken201]

We're not just talking about ideas. We're talking about the work that went into making the mod something other than just an idea. 'A post-acpocalyptic mod for CK2 would be cool' is an idea. A mod you can download and play only comes about because of hundreds of hours of (unpaid) work. The only compensation the AtE team gets is the natural human buzz we all get from creating something worthwhile.



That's fine, until the first time that AtE lore conflicts with WAE lore - and it will at some point. 'Atomicists are left deliberately vague' and 'Atomicists were founded by Igor 'The Tumescent' of Vladivostok and his beliefs were carried across the Atlantic by a flotilla of decommissioned nuclear submarines lashed together with sentient strands of radioactive tendon salvaged from the Cancer Pits of the Great Blast' reflect very different design standpoints and cannot both be true. I think that's what Klonsef and Ofaloaf are trying to avoid - situations where they have to take fanfic (over which they have no control) into account as they make design choices. WAE would be a much better idea if both modding teams were in contact and had to agree on lore points before progressing. What's fair, to me, is that the creators of the original mod have final say in what is or is not canon. As I said above, the only payment they receive from this mod comes in the form of satisfaction via creative expression, and it seems wrong to me to argue for mitigating that nominal payment simply because I want to pretend to be a post-apocalyptic nomad from Sussex instead of Ohio.

Id just like to state that my mod would connect to ATE in no way, other than the idea of a post-apocalytpic mod. Seriously now, I named it After The end, just really because this mod i give credit for giving me the idea for maknig a post-apocalyptic europe mod. Its like... I made a fantasy adventure book, because Lord Of The rings inspired me to do so. Yes. That. ATE was my inspiration to create the mod.


EDIT: There, i changed the name and description of my mod. Feel better? Maybe a cold drink, sir? Because i need one.

EDITEDIT: Ill need to make a new mod page, i dont seem to be able to change the main title of the thread.

 

[Cruxador]

We're not just talking about ideas. We're talking about the work that went into making the mod something other than just an idea. 'A post-acpocalyptic mod for CK2 would be cool' is an idea. A mod you can download and play only comes about because of hundreds of hours of (unpaid) work. The only compensation the AtE team gets is the natural human buzz we all get from creating something worthwhile.

Those hours are gonna be just as unpaid no matter if one hundred people take your code wholesale and build on it or if nobody even downloads the mod. It seems to me that it must be some strange form of pointless, petty, and utterly misguided selfishness to not be happy if other people can benefit from your work.

That's fine, until the first time that AtE lore conflicts with WAE lore - and it will at some point. 'Atomicists are left deliberately vague' and 'Atomicists were founded by Igor 'The Tumescent' of Vladivostok and his beliefs were carried across the Atlantic by a flotilla of decommissioned nuclear submarines lashed together with sentient strands of radioactive tendon salvaged from the Cancer Pits of the Great Blast' reflect very different design standpoints and cannot both be true. I think that's what Klonsef and Ofaloaf are trying to avoid - situations where they have to take fanfic (over which they have no control) into account as they make design choices. WAE would be a much better idea if both modding teams were in contact and had to agree on lore points before progressing. What's fair, to me, is that the creators of the original mod have final say in what is or is not canon.

Obviously, the After the End team is under no obligation to include anything cziken does. Other than that, cziken can choose to cleave to the original mod as much or as little as he'd like, depending on his own personal goals for the project.

As I said above, the only payment they receive from this mod comes in the form of satisfaction via creative expression, and it seems wrong to me to argue for mitigating that nominal payment simply because I want to pretend to be a post-apocalyptic nomad from Sussex instead of Ohio.

I think your premise that people building derivative work is a hindrance to "satisfaction via creative expression" is bullshit. Furthermore, I'm reasonably certain that any person without a severe psychological abnormality gains satisfaction from tangible expressions of appreciation.

EDIT: There, i changed the name and description of my mod. Feel better? Maybe a cold drink, sir? Because i need one.

Relax, bro. It's just pseudonymous internet grouching. No sense losing your chill over something like this.

 

[Worldcrusher]

Those hours are gonna be just as unpaid no matter if one hundred people take your code wholesale and build on it or if nobody even downloads the mod. It seems to me that it must be some strange form of pointless, petty, and utterly misguided selfishness to not be happy if other people can benefit from your work.

The benefit we other people receive is getting to play the mod. An exercise in worldbuilding is not a toolset, it is a construct that has to follow its own internal rules -a canon - in order to maintain its integrity. When anyone can decide to change the rules, there are no longer any rules. The construct is reduced to a set of events and character images, which to my knowledge was never the intention of the mod. It wasn't titled 'After The End - A Collection of Post-Apocalyptic-Themed Mod-Building Tools.' AtE allows players to create a story starting from a specific pre-defined point. That point should be under the control of the creators of the mod. They did the work, they should have that power. It being on the internet doesn't make it 'ours.' It's 'theirs.' They're letting us play with it, and that is nice of them. The least we can do is be considerate of what is considered 'official' when it comes to their creation. If other people have great ideas, then by all means they should make their own mods. But they are not entitled to co-opt other people's great ideas just because they viewed them via an internet connection.

Obviously, the After the End team is under no obligation to include anything cziken does. Other than that, cziken can choose to cleave to the original mod as much or as little as he'd like, depending on his own personal goals for the project. I think your premise that people building derivative work is a hindrance to "satisfaction via creative expression" is bullshit. Furthermore, I'm reasonably certain that any person without a severe psychological abnormality gains satisfaction from tangible expressions of appreciation.

It is a demonstrable hindrance - please refer to the example I provided in my previous post. The creators of the mod should not have to double-check with creators of derivative work when they want to make a decision about their own creation. If you want creative control of something, then create it. That is neither petty, pointless, nor misguided. It is fair.

 

[SteelyGlint]

Do any AtE cultures currently use the LoR Byzantine blind and castrate options? I haven't seen any blind or castrated characters around. If not, which culture/religion would this mechanic be a good fit for?

Eunuch brokers get created by the Consumerist religious head, to wander the lands and gather money for him. Obviously this will only happen if the Consumerists win the uprising and survive for a while.

I've also been pushing for a Druidic\Fertility\Earth Goddess\Gaia religion in the northwest, that would include a bit more matriarchal succession laws. I envision a couple events (with a bit of a "Wicker Man" vibe) where male prisoners get castrated or killed.

As far as blinding goes, I don't think we have any plans as of yet. The Sol Invicta faith is a bit similar to vanilla Zunism, so maybe they can get the event where you're at risk of going blind by staring at the Sun...

The zombi trait that you can get when imprisoned by a Voodoo ruler has terrible penalties, just like blinded/eunuch.

 

[cziken201]

Hey, can some dev, just please, tell me that what i done wasnt really that bad? Because i feel like a sh*t now, for causing so much trouble. :c

 

[Klonself]

EDIT: Better idea - maybe ill just ask now?

I think we're in agreement that your idea of a post-apocalyptic Europe mod is perfectly fine, and godspeed to you on that. We just ask it be made clearly a completely different setting with no connection to ours, which it sounds like you're taking into account anyhow.

 

[cziken201]

Welp, it was made clear. My mod apge starts with:

"DISCLAIMER: ATE has nothing to do with this. It was only my inspiration to create this project."

I hope its fine enough? Ill make a new thread for it anyways.

 

[Klonself]

Yeah, it seems okay now, it's just something to keep in mind as you do your thing. Besides, you'll find it more rewarding if it's your own work, as opposed to lifting from the breadcrumbs we've left.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Hey, can some dev, just please, tell me that what i done wasnt really that bad? Because i feel like a sh*t now, for causing so much trouble. :c

It's cool, the one thing that was iffy was just saying "After the End" when we haven't agreed to coordinate worldbuilding. That got us a little agitated, but that's well sorted out now, and now it seems there's a philisophical discussion of ownership and creation in the digital age going on.

 

[Cruxador]

The benefit we other people receive is getting to play the mod. An exercise in worldbuilding is not a toolset, it is a construct that has to follow its own internal rules -a canon - in order to maintain its integrity.

Your "integrity" is a fabrication. An exercise in worldbuilding is not a toolset, true, but a process. And what it produces are ideas. After the End goes quite a bit further than that and also creates code and things that have a manner of functional purpose. Those things have something in common with the ideas in that they exist and thus have the potential to be used.

When anyone can decide to change the rules, there are no longer any rules.

There weren't any in the first place.

The construct is reduced to a set of events and character images, which to my knowledge was never the intention of the mod.

I'm reasonably certain it's at least part of the point, because you'll notice that the mod does contain quite a few events and character images. Whether they were a "point" is itself a rather pointless thing to bring up though; they exist even if as you suppose they were brought into existence and remain in the mod purely by accident.

It wasn't titled 'After The End - A Collection of Post-Apocalyptic-Themed Mod-Building Tools.'

What relevence does a title have? The mod is not atomic, it contains many parts that can be enjoyed as a whole, and it can be split, and because humans are versatile and versatile parts could be used and recombined in different ways. Is this the main intended purpose of the mod? No. It's not optimized for that. And you'll note that most people don't use it that way. That doesn't mean it somehow lacks the potential to be used that way. And it doesn't mean that someone enjoying the mod in a manner other than the predominant one is somehow inherently harmful to anyone.

AtE allows players to create a story starting from a specific pre-defined point. That point should be under the control of the creators of the mod. They did the work, they should have that power.

They did in fact set a start point in the mod. I wouldn't be surprised if, were it practically feasible, they'd be perfectly happy to let us pick from a quite wide range of times though. What relevance does the number of bookmarks in the mod have to anything?

It being on the internet doesn't make it 'ours.' It's 'theirs.' They're letting us play with it, and that is nice of them. The least we can do is be considerate of what is considered 'official' when it comes to their creation. If other people have great ideas, then by all means they should make their own mods. But they are not entitled to co-opt other people's great ideas just because they viewed them via an internet connection.

An idea isn't something for which co-opting is even a possible descriptor. If someone uses an idea and it happens to differ from the way it's used in AtE, does that somehow permute your experience in the game? If the Europe mod were to add dragons to the game, does that mean suddenly there's dragons in AtE? Of course not, an idea lives in the minds of people and propagates through other minds, but in each mind it exists as a separate instance. Just like the files of a game. Modifying one instance has no effect on the work of the devs, which is independent of derivatives except to whatever point they may or (more likely, given in-thread statements) may not choose to take ideas from those derivatives themselves.

It is a demonstrable hindrance - please refer to the example I provided in my previous post. The creators of the mod should not have to double-check with creators of derivative work when they want to make a decision about their own creation. If you want creative control of something, then create it. That is neither petty, pointless, nor misguided. It is fair.

The example in your previous post is as inane as the philosophy you intend to prove with it, but I went ahead and added an even more bizarre one here to help illustrate how divorced from reality it really is. Of course the creators of one instance (in many forms of development this might be called a fork, though that generally has a more specific meaning and would be applied in a largely metaphorical sense here) have no obligation to check with anyone else before checking their own. They could choose to, of course, but have clearly stated that they won't and that choice is not only their inherent prerogative but a more default option than choosing to explicitly collaborate with a derivative. They maintain creative control over their own work – they can make those decisionds, and any other which do apply solely to their own work. Creative control does not entail controlling others to prevent creation. That "right", which you suppose to be inalienable, has never existed and the closest legal analogue, copyright, only prevents formal publication and profit from the ideas of another, and is intended purely to safeguard financial returns on innovation and thus encourage investment in such things. It is thus irrelevant to non-fiscal projects such as this.

It's cool, the one thing that was iffy was just saying "After the End" when we haven't agreed to coordinate worldbuilding. That got us a little agitated, but that's well sorted out now, and now it seems there's a philisophical discussion of ownership and creation in the digital age going on.

If you feel that it's too great and too long-lived a divergence from the intended topic of the thread, let me know. I'll drop it and/or delete posts at your discretion.

 

[SteelyGlint]

Also would be nice to have the various prison events (oubliette/house arrest etc.) back in. I miss being able to hasten the death of an annoying ambitious vassal by throwing him/her into the oubliette and misplacing the key.

I've done a bit of testing in both After the End and vanilla CK2, and I think these events might be broken across the board. I imprisoned ~10 characters and let the game run on the highest speed for ~10 years, and the only prisoner event I got was the request for release.

I suspect this is a vanilla issue, and it may have something to with changes to the way the game handles fast triggers like "only_capable = yes" or "prisoner = no" that are used in several of the prisoner events. And by "changes," I mean they're broken.

 

[Korbah]

It sounds like whatever issues have been resolved amicably between the two parties involved. Further discussion on the matter would be pointless and only serve to make for a hostile environment, I think it can at this point be laid to rest.

 

[Attalus]

It has been a while since I checked on the mod and I wanted to know how far the map is advanced. From what I've read you are in the process of doing the West Coast , aren't you ?

 

[Cruxador]

It has been a while since I checked on the mod and I wanted to know how far the map is advanced. From what I've read you are in the process of doing the West Coast , aren't you ?

Next update is California. Not everything in the middle is necessarily filled in, but a lot is. I don't know how much more non-California stuff* the next update will include, the maps in the first post are accurate to the current version. Mexico goes a bit further than the map of it shows but not that much, and the Caribbean exists as well. Canada is still even more of a desolate wasteland than normal, and Montana/Wyoming/Idaho are as well, and unlikely to get much love in the next version.

*The Great Basin, being a desert, could probably be considered finished with a couple trade routes and a culture for the oasis people, for example.

 

[antibush5]

Do you think a Russian old believer invasion from Alaska is a possibility?

 

[Klonself]

Old believer?

 

[SteelyGlint]

Do you think a Russian old believer invasion from Alaska is a possibility?

Russians will be one possible west coast invasion, and for now I think they are planned to be Atomicist (possibly a reformed version or variant, but it's not set in stone).