after patch 1.1, could there be a possible bug with called shot?

[Jade_Rook]

@Jade_Rook , i thought about what you have said, and a few things come to my mind.

1) a mech has 49 slots, so it can prob cram 49 medium lasers and fire all of them to the enemy before overheating and shutting down. (but if the medium laser can be mod to give zero heat, then the mech will not overheat)

2) its prob a good idea to make a medium laser do 1 damage.

3) its good idea to make enemy mech armor to a armor value that is easy to see, something like armor = 1000

4) i don't know if there is any difference between called shot and precision shot, but to test precision shot, it requires morale, and yes, if fury can be modded to do precision strike every round, it would be a great idea.

5) Called shot is a bit different from precision strike and it requires the enemy to be knocked down or shut down due to overheating. Prob a good way to knock down enemy mech is to use LRM boats but mod the LRM armor damage to be zero and mod the LRM stab damage to be as high as possible. (i am not sure if there is such a thing as zero damage weapon can be possible lolol)

1) It is easy to give medium lasers 0 heat, the range of a PPC, and whatever damage you want. Those can easily be tweaked to make the test easier.

As for how many weapons you can mod on a mech... I haven't tested it in the full release, but in the beta there seemed to be a limit around 15 to 20 weapons. After that point something breaks. I actually made a canon Archer packed with rocket launchers (the ARC-6W). It has 14 weapons and is a completely valid build by TT rules, but when I dropped it in the game, it was unable to move or fire. I had to switch some of the weapons around so that it had fewer total weapons before it would work. I don't know what went wrong and I don't know if this limit still exists. It would still be worth trying a 40 medium laser build for this test (I like even numbers).

2) I would actually recommend 4 damage if you are counting armor (which is what I did). In some of my tests it seemed like the game randomly rounded damage up or down when the target was Braced or had Cover. Some of my original 1 damage shots seemed to be hitting a braced mech, but actually doing 0 damage. If you are using the log, it shouldn't matter because those would still be considered hits (I think).

3) Agreed. It is pretty easy to mod this too.

4) This is also something which should be considered because it is possible called shots and precision shots are working differently. I don't think they are. I think that Precision Shot just goes to the called shot rules, just like firing on a prone or shut down mech. I think it will be easier to mod Precision Shot to allow it to be used every turn than it will be to always knock down the target to get shots. Ideally, both can get tested at some time. (It would also be possible to create a mech which constantly overheats itself and shuts down every other turn)

5) Either LRMs or SRMs. I used SRMs with 0 damage and 50 stability damage per shot in some of my other testing. It is really easy to mod in.

 

[stkmro]

1) It is easy to give medium lasers 0 heat, the range of a PPC, and whatever damage you want. Those can easily be tweaked to make the test easier.

As for how many weapons you can mod on a mech... I haven't tested it in the full release, but in the beta there seemed to be a limit around 15 to 20 weapons. After that point something breaks. I actually made a canon Archer packed with rocket launchers (the ARC-6W). It has 14 weapons and is a completely valid build by TT rules, but when I dropped it in the game, it was unable to move or fire. I had to switch some of the weapons around so that it had fewer total weapons before it would work. I don't know what went wrong and I don't know if this limit still exists. It would still be worth trying a 40 medium laser build for this test (I like even numbers).

2) I would actually recommend 4 damage if you are counting armor (which is what I did). In some of my tests it seemed like the game randomly rounded damage up or down when the target was Braced or had Cover. Some of my original 1 damage shots seemed to be hitting a braced mech, but actually doing 0 damage. If you are using the log, it shouldn't matter because those would still be considered hits (I think).

3) Agreed. It is pretty easy to mod this too.

4) This is also something which should be considered because it is possible called shots and precision shots are working differently. I don't think they are. I think that Precision Shot just goes to the called shot rules, just like firing on a prone or shut down mech. I think it will be easier to mod Precision Shot to allow it to be used every turn than it will be to always knock down the target to get shots. Ideally, both can get tested at some time. (It would also be possible to create a mech which constantly overheats itself and shuts down every other turn)

5) Either LRMs or SRMs. I used SRMs with 0 damage and 50 stability damage per shot in some of my other testing. It is really easy to mod in.

what about selection of pilots in skirmish mode with AI?

I can't seem to find elite pilots to pair with my mechs.

are we required to mod the game if we want to play elite pilots in skirmish mode?

 

[stkmro]

hi guys,

1) i have done some testing on precision shot today.

2) Attached below is the data of results and also the video recording of the testing.

3) i used a save game and then reload 14 times to do the testing.

4) All precision shots was done to an enemy wolverine on its RT.

5) Only medium lasers are used in the test.

6) On every reload, 7 mediums lasers were used in the test.

7) The tests was conducted without modding the game because i got zero experience in modding this game yet.

8) I used the simplest way of uploading it to youtube and that is using Xsplit to stream the entire testing process directly to youtube.

9) The results show that out of 98 precision shot was fired, a total of 92 precision shots hit the mech and 6 precision shot was missed.

10) Out of 92 precision hits, 72 shots managed to hit the RT.

11) 72 out of 92 shots gives a probability of 78% success.

12) Although the sample size is small, this test shows that most likely there is no bug regarding precision shot to the RT.

13) It was indeed an interesting experiment on the testing, and although its time consuming and takes alot of effort, its a good learning experience.

14) Now i need to figure out what went wrong and why it takes me three days to finish the mission lol.

Spoiler: Test data

Spoiler: Video recording

 

[Doctor Machete]

@stkmro
The modder who did one of the real chance mods didn't report any changes to the internal code related to chance besides removal of clustering, so I was expecting this.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

hi guys,

1) i have done some testing on precision shot today.

2) Attached below is the data of results and also the video recording of the testing.

3) i used a save game and then reload 14 times to do the testing.

4) All precision shots was done to an enemy wolverine on its RT.

5) Only medium lasers are used in the test.

6) On every reload, 7 mediums lasers were used in the test.

7) The tests was conducted without modding the game because i got zero experience in modding this game yet.

8) I used the simplest way of uploading it to youtube and that is using Xsplit to stream the entire testing process directly to youtube.

9) The results show that out of 98 precision shot was fired, a total of 92 precision shots hit the mech and 6 precision shot was missed.

10) Out of 92 precision hits, 72 shots managed to hit the RT.

11) 72 out of 92 shots gives a probability of 78% success.

12) Although the sample size is small, this test shows that most likely there is no bug regarding precision shot to the RT.

13) It was indeed an interesting experiment on the testing, and although its time consuming and takes alot of effort, its a good learning experience.

14) Now i need to figure out what went wrong and why it takes me three days to finish the mission lol.

Spoiler: Test data

View attachment 385213

Spoiler: Video recording

Will be interesting to see if the numbers keep adding up that way -- would directly contradict what some are reporting about a drastic drop.

Question -- should these tests be run in separate iterations with pilots of differing Gunnery and Tactics skill ratings, to see how much difference those make?

 

[stkmro]

Will be interesting to see if the numbers keep adding up that way -- would directly contradict what some are reporting about a drastic drop.

Question -- should these tests be run in separate iterations with pilots of differing Gunnery and Tactics skill ratings, to see how much difference those make?

yeah man... exactly...

my own tests contradicts my own experience in earlier games just a few days ago lol...

 

[Doctor Machete]

BTW if you still want to test more maybe an easier way could be by modding LRMs (for number of missiles per salvo, damage,...) and using an extremely high ratio of clustering, so let's say 99.9999% missiles would land in the same location than the first missile (I don't know how much of a tolerance has the game for these parameters).

 

[Jade_Rook]

@stkmro Thank you for testing! It is greatly appreciated and seems to show that the UI is now accurate.

I think there have were two changes to called shots in the patch which significantly weakened them. First, called shots used to use the clustering mechanics in addition to the called shot weighting bonus. That means that the location got an extra 8x multiplier to its hit chance compared to what it was supposed to be. They were way overpowered. They also further reduced the effectiveness of called shots for SRMs. SRMs aren't supposed to be a precision weapon, but the called shot mechanics were making them one.

I think some of the impressions that called shots are coming in under what they are supposed to be is our minds magnifying the amount of the change. SRMs were pretty commonly used before the patch, so the changes could catch people off guard. The changes would also be magnified if someone started a new campaign to try the new difficulty options. Going from end game with elite pilots back down to recruits with no special bonuses AND having the called shots weakened from pre-patch would combine with expectations which would naturally still be used to the elite pilots. I know that I need to readjust a little when using new pilots.

what about selection of pilots in skirmish mode with AI?

I can't seem to find elite pilots to pair with my mechs.

are we required to mod the game if we want to play elite pilots in skirmish mode?

Yes, we have to mod to get additional pilots in skirmish. I don't think any of the skirmish pilots have Called Shot Mastery.

Will be interesting to see if the numbers keep adding up that way -- would directly contradict what some are reporting about a drastic drop.

Question -- should these tests be run in separate iterations with pilots of differing Gunnery and Tactics skill ratings, to see how much difference those make?

It would be helpful to get a more complete picture of how the mechanics are working. I don't think it is necessary, but it could be helpful.

BTW if you still want to test more maybe an easier way could be by modding LRMs (for number of missiles per salvo, damage,...) and using an extremely high ratio of clustering, so let's say 99.9999% missiles would land in the same location than the first missile (I don't know how much of a tolerance has the game for these parameters).

At that point each LRM launcher would be no different from a single medium laser. Called shots with LRMs only affect where the center of the cluster will be. After that, all the other missiles are determined by clustering. We need to test the called shot part, which only impacts one part of the LRM attack, not per missile.

 

[Doctor Machete]

At that point each LRM launcher would be no different from a single medium laser. Called shots with LRMs only affect where the center of the cluster will be. After that, all the other missiles are determined by clustering. We need to test the called shot part, which only impacts one part of the LRM attack, not per missile.

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking xDDD

 

[Max_Killjoy]

OK, so I finally got all my original file tweaks converted into a ModTek mod, and started playing 1.1.1 in earnest.

(Work is very busy, I'm actually posting while waiting for inventory searches and reports to run, between calls, waiting for emails, etc, most of the time.)

At least with my in-campaign highly-experienced pilots, I'm not seeing a huge loss of Precision Shot or Called Shot accuracy, so far.

 

[RealCadaver]

I am seeing that Called shots seem to scatter more, i.e. I miss more often, but Precision shots actually hit with expected results. I suspect this is due to the different hit location charts being used (as opposed to the percentages being off).

I had given up on headshots, using either called or precision shots, as they seemed to never hit. Now I find I can head cap OpFor mechs on a regular basis using precision shot (essentially at the reported 18% chance, roughly 1 in 5).

I've had missions, in my most recent campaign, where I have head capped up to 3 OpFor mechs using Precision shot.

Of course this is still anecdotal, but having fun with my dual LL (+10 dmg) ShadowHawk playing sniper mech, heh.

 

[Clannerkiller]

I gotta say though, the added random stuff makes it really REALLY sweet when it actually does go right and you cut off a torso

 

[Doctor Machete]

I am seeing that Called shots seem to scatter more, i.e. I miss more often, but Precision shots actually hit with expected results. I suspect this is due to the different hit location charts being used (as opposed to the percentages being off).

Called shots should scatter less if you aim at the CT. It's almost the same hit table but with more weight into the CT ("Prone" hit table in CombatGameConstants.json). But just because of that you will miss more often (than with Precision Shot) if you aim at other spots.

I had given up on headshots, using either called or precision shots, as they seemed to never hit. Now I find I can head cap OpFor mechs on a regular basis using precision shot (essentially at the reported 18% chance, roughly 1 in 5).

That's to be expected once headshot bug is fixed. In 1.0 with clustering and without fix you had less chance to hit the head with called/precision shot than with regular attacks. But with bug fix and still clustering you would have 40% to headcap.

 

[stkmro]

hi guys,

last week i did some testing on precision shots.

this week i want to do some testing on called shots.

i made some edits in the json files for the following 4 types of LRMs (these are the only LRMs that i am using currently) to make them do zero damage while knocking down enemy mechs for called shots:
LRM15++ delta
LRM15++ zeus
LRM5++ zeus
LRM10+++ zeus

however when i load up my saved game, all the 4 types of LRMs still continue to do damage to the enemy mechs.

can somebody experienced in modding json files please advise me on the below two questions:

is it because editing of json files will only take effect when i start a new campaign?

is it because editing of json files will not have effect if i load up a saved game?

-------------------------
Edit:
Tks to everyone who help me.

Yes, i just tested and confirm that modified json file will no effect on save games which are already inside the missions.

I test it by loading another save game which is at the argo. Then i enter a mission and my LRMs do zero damage on the enemy.

I think in order for the effect to take place for the in-progress mission save, i need to finish the mission, and return to argo and then enter the next mission.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

OK, so I finally got all my original file tweaks converted into a ModTek mod, and started playing 1.1.1 in earnest.

(Work is very busy, I'm actually posting while waiting for inventory searches and reports to run, between calls, waiting for emails, etc, most of the time.)

At least with my in-campaign highly-experienced pilots, I'm not seeing a huge loss of Precision Shot or Called Shot accuracy, so far.

To follow up on my own observations...

With a larger sample size of multiple days playing... there is an apparent reduction in Precision Shot and Call Shot efficacy even with 10/10/10/10 pilots.

 

[stkmro]

hi guys,

1) last week i did some testing on the precision shots. a small sample size testing shows 72 shots out of 92 precision shots hit the RT, which is about 78% probability hit.

2) this week i am doing some testing on called shots to see if there are any bugs.

3) i mod the LRM json files to give zero damage while knock down the enemy grasshopper.

4) then i used this situation as a saved game to repeat 14 times of called shots to the target LT.

5) my pilots are all elite (10,10,10,10) and master (9,9,9,9) pilots.

6) weapons used are 7 medium lasers for each repeat.

7) the result show that out of 96 called shots that hit the target, 77 called shots strike the LT.

8) 77 out of 96 shots gives a probability of 80.2% success hit.

9) although my sample size is small, the test conducted show that most likely there is no bug in the called shot to the LT.

10) i am happy to report the results of the testing and learn some new things along the way, including some modding to the json files.

Spoiler: test data

Spoiler: video recording

Spoiler: other totally unrelated matters which i observe along the way

11) although i am happy that most likely there is no bug in the precision shots and called shots, the previous week exercise highlights some totally unrelated things which i am very concerned about.

12) one example is the way the game handles fractional numbers (decimal numbers / non-whole numbers) in the damages.

13) it is very difficult to explain in words, but if you conduct testing with large numbers of weapons and you record down the damages, you start to see certain patterns.

14) an example is medium lasers (25 dmg) hitting a guarded target (-50% dmg)

15) by logic, you should get 12.5 dmg.

16) but it seems that the game round it up to 13 dmg or round down to 12 dmg depending on certain situations.

17) it seems to me that if there is only one hit (12.5 dmg), you will get 13 dmg.

18) but if it is 2 hits, you will get (13 + 12 dmg).

19) if it is 3 hits, you will get (13 + 12 + 13 dmg).

20) i find this observation to be very disturbing to me.

21) i would imagine that if large quantities of small weapons (mg, flamers, SRMs, LRMs) are used in situations where there are 25% or 50% reduction in damage, the actual damage added up is probably not going to be very accurate.

22) i wonder why HBS did not use two decimal digits for calculating damage and armour numbers.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

Regarding damage fractions, it wouldn't be the first place someone's found where the game only deals in integers -- there are certain mods that scale an effect or attribute or state up from 1 to 1000, then divide it back down by 1000, to work around the game rounding off fractions and decimals somewhere in the code.

 

[stkmro]

Regarding damage fractions, it wouldn't be the first place someone's found where the game only deals in integers -- there are certain mods what scale an effect or attribute or state up from 1 to 1000, then divide it back down by 1000, to work around the game rounding off fractions and decimals somewhere in the code.

yes indeed.

i find it puzzling that HBS uses integers for damage and armor. it would be more appropriate to use decimals.

probably it could be the technical limitations of the programming tools used, or fundamental wrong design of the game?

 

[Max_Killjoy]

yes indeed.

i find it puzzling that HBS uses integers for damage and armor. it would be more appropriate to use decimals.

probably it could be the technical limitations of the programming tools used, or fundamental wrong design of the game?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about the programming at all, just making the observation that it's not the only place it's been found.

 

[Jade_Rook]

I've observed similar fractional damage with my own testing. I had SRMs that were modded to deal 1 damage shot at a Braced target and I was trying to record the number of hits. Well, since they were Braced, I was getting numbers about half of what I was expecting. They were dealing 0.5 damage, instead of 1.

Personally, I don't think it is a big deal for normal gameplay. It is something we need to take into account for testing, but it normal gameplay it shouldn't be a difference of more than a few points over the course of a battle. It looks like the computer is actually calculating it as fractions and then rounding in the display. Or it might be rounding after damage is applied, so that it effectively resets after each attack.

Two medium lasers hitting a braced target (so 12.5 dmg each) and dealing a total of 25 damage when the display shows two hits of 13 damage doesn't seem like an issue to me.

Thanks for the testing @stkmro!