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PyroMegaManZ

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"Oral traditions can be reliable; written records can be unreliable." is saying oral can be more authentic than written
Indeed a single piece of oral evidence may in a particular context be more reliable than a single piece of written evidence as just one instance. @Blindbohemian already provides such an example. The only thing I could add onto the discussion at this point is that many written records are based directly off oral records (i.e. historians roaming around asking people about a certain event).

The most important thing to consider is not the mode in which the evidence was produced or collected, but instead to assess other properties of the evidence. Is the evidence corroborated elsewhere (bonus points if corroborated by other sources which are unlikely to have had contact with the original producer of evidence)? Is there any reason to suspect bias if the producer of the evidence is a person (do they have an agenda)? And many, many more questions we have to ask about every piece of evidence.

That is why I say we cannot just assume a recount of history is incorrect simply because that civilisation did not write down their history.
 
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PyroMegaManZ

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On an unrelated note: I think the entire aborigine debate is pointless as its really not an objective topic. even if we could all agree on what civilisation level they were IRL, this entire debate is actually about where each one of us would draw the line when it comes to including tags. Thats as subjective as it gets. For me african states like Mutapa are definetely in, as would be the maori in NZ and the Pueblo in NA. I'm not sure about other north american natives or TAGs like caribas. Australian natives however fall definetely under my subjective line when it comes to TAG inclusiom.
This is indeed true. Any assessment of civilisation is purely subjective, especially considering how many various scopes we can use to view the definition of civilisation through. Each person is up to making their own judgement. What I wish to advocate for is that this judgement (at least in regards to Australian Indigenous nations) should not be conducted under the belief that they were inconsequential hunter-gatherer nomads who had no sense of centralisation or any concept of nation-hood among all the other misconceptions about their society that are being proven wrong on a yearly basis.

In the case of the Maori, New Zealand has been far more accepting of their Indigenous people for far longer than Australia ever has been (though it is important to stress that I am not saying that New Zealand has treated their Indigenous population perfectly in any capacity). This has led to far more research being done, and far more communication being made with the Maori people which means we have a far more accurate idea of their society and an idea of their society less tainted by reactionary policies of politicians. As the decades pass by we will hopefully be able to achieve a near-equal understanding of the true nature of Australian Indigenous society.

@Aussiehawker has made several references to Henry Reynolds for instance. Henry Reynolds has written many books, published many journal articles, and talked at great length in support of many of the points I put forward about Australian Indigenous society in terms of their advancement as a society. Because of this however he has often been treated as a pariah across Australian Universities and other political institutions and blocked from having a voice in debate. Even today, many of the top historians in this subject matter are often threatened with expulsion from their University unless they tone down their references to Australian Indigenous advancements prior to European arrival. We still have a long way to go before we can finally get a better understanding of Australian history unfortunately.
 
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  1. Bruce Pascoe, Dark Emu, Magabala Books, Broome, WA, 2013.
  2. Robert A. Dahl, ‘Democracy’, <www.brittanica.com>, accessed 2 May 2015.
  3. Fred Myers, ‘Emotions and the Self: A Theory of Personhood and Political Order among Pintupi Aborigines’, Ethos, vol. 7, no. 4 (2009), p. 368.
  4. J. Bulmer, quoted in Henry Reynolds, The Other Side of the Frontier, Penguin, Melbourne, 1984 (1981), p. 151.
  5. W.E.H. Stanner, The Dreaming and Other Essays, Black Inc, Melbourne, 2011, p. 66.
  6. Dianne Bell, Daughters of the Dreaming, Spinifex Press, Melbourne, 1982, p. 182.
  7. Aunty Mary Graham, public talk, ‘Conversation about Country’ with Melissa Lucashenko, Federal Town Hall, Federal, NSW, February 2015.
  8. Stanner, The Dreaming, p. 72.
  9. R. Wild and P. Anderson, Little Children Are Sacred, report of the Northern Territory Board of Inquiry into the Protection of Aboriginal Children from Sexual Abuse, 2007, accessed 1 June 2015.
  10. David Runciman, ‘The Trouble with Democracy’, Guardian (UK), 21 November 2013.
  11. Larissa Behrendt, 'Aboriginal Australia and Democracy: Old Traditions, New Challenges', 2011
To avoid having to list you too many sources that say relatively the same information I will mention that the first two links have further references to corroborating sources at the bottom of the respective documents. There is no one that can historically say beyond a definitive doubt (yet) that the democracy in Australia was formed prior to the Greeks (as even though the Government no longer bans researching these sort of topics, it is still extremely difficult to get funding for research as Terra Nullius was still being taught in schools till 1990's), but as we are sure that democracy existed prior to European arrival and these nations had existed for somewhere between 60,000 and 100,000 years prior to this occasion it would be hard to imagine that the Greeks invented democracy first (which we already know is the case as there were plenty of 100% confirmed cases of democracy prior to Greece but that is outside the point I am trying to make).

So no, I can't say 100% beyond a doubt that democracy was invented in Australia prior to the Greeks, it is far more plausible that this is the case (and hopefully in decades to come research funding will become more available for these topics, if it isn't too late yet).

@Steel_atlas
I have a question. Based on these sources should Australian tags be able to send 10 000 soldiers on a fleet of 20 ships to conquer (and govern) provinces in Indonesia and farther? Because if not, what's the point of them being represented as tags instead of colonializable, highly developed populous provinces?
 
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PyroMegaManZ

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I have a question. Based on these sources should Australian tags be able to send 10 000 soldiers on a fleet of 20 ships to conquer (and govern) provinces in Indonesia and farther? Because if not, what's the point of them being represented as tags instead of colonializable, highly developed populous provinces?
There is an extremely unlikely possibility during the timeframe of EU4 that they would have taken advantage of their access to iron tools, armour and new ship-building techniques gained through trade with Indonesian and Filipino nations to make any sort of moves at conquest. There are some slight murmurings of new evidence that show Australian Indigenous nations travelled up into the Guinean islands above Australia to expand their territory and gain access to new resources but this was only first uncovered about two years ago and is far too under-researched for me to put it forward as a possibility.

I would add though that there are a very small number of nations in EU4 at the moment (really only Western Europe and Eastern Asia) that ever acquired the capacity to put large fleets together and send large armies overseas to conquer land within the timeframe of EU4.

In terms of what is the point of adding these tags into the game instead of highly developed provinces in my opinion mostly comes down to the fact that this would not allow the opportunity to represent Australian Indigenous society as it was (in terms of religion, culture etc.) and it would compound the myth that they were entirely a de-centralised, nomadic society. For the fact that there is already 2000 bug fixes coming in the next patch, and that as others have mentioned all work was done as a hobby project (the implementer of these features has been working on this research for several years in their own time) it seems a fair inclusion to me.
 
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This is indeed true. Any assessment of civilisation is purely subjective, especially considering how many various scopes we can use to view the definition of civilisation through. Each person is up to making their own judgement. What I wish to advocate for is that this judgement (at least in regards to Australian Indigenous nations) should not be conducted under the belief that they were inconsequential hunter-gatherer nomads who had no sense of centralisation or any concept of nation-hood among all the other misconceptions about their society that are being proven wrong on a yearly basis.

In the case of the Maori, New Zealand has been far more accepting of their Indigenous people for far longer than Australia ever has been (though it is important to stress that I am not saying that New Zealand has treated their Indigenous population perfectly in any capacity). This has led to far more research being done, and far more communication being made with the Maori people which means we have a far more accurate idea of their society and an idea of their society less tainted by reactionary policies of politicians. As the decades pass by we will hopefully be able to achieve a near-equal understanding of the true nature of Australian Indigenous society.

@Aussiehawker has made several references to Henry Reynolds for instance. Henry Reynolds has written many books, published many journal articles, and talked at great length in support of many of the points I put forward about Australian Indigenous society in terms of their advancement as a society. Because of this however he has often been treated as a pariah across Australian Universities and other political institutions and blocked from having a voice in debate. Even today, many of the top historians in this subject matter are often threatened with expulsion from their University unless they tone down their references to Australian Indigenous advancements prior to European arrival. We still have a long way to go before we can finally get a better understanding of Australian history unfortunately.
Please a citation that they're ostracised for political reasoning rather than revionist work with poor metholdogy
 

PyroMegaManZ

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Please a citation that they're ostracised for political reasoning rather than revionist work with poor metholdogy
Last time I provided a long list of citations (which I had spent a couple of months reading through and deeply analysing to ensure they are based off reliable pieces of evidence) to support the points I was making no one appeared to have read them or referred to them. As it would take me many hours, if not days, to compile a reliable list of sources (especially as Universities and other political institutions spend a great deal of effort suppressing information about the true reason for the firing of an individual) for your perusal, and I have no guarantee that anyone will even read these pieces of evidence, I am not particularly keen on the prospect.
 
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Last time I provided a long list of citations (which I had spent a couple of months reading through and deeply analysing to ensure they are based off reliable pieces of evidence) to support the points I was making no one appeared to have read them or referred to them. As it would take me many hours, if not days, to compile a reliable list of sources (especially as Universities and other political institutions spend a great deal of effort suppressing information about the true reason for the firing of an individual) for your perusal, and I have no guarantee that anyone will even read these pieces of evidence, I am not particularly keen on the prospect.
I'm going to read the previous list tomorrow as I said as well as get back to the differences between modern, Greek, and tribal democracies.
But such accusations of academic suppression you use quickly veer into conspiracy theory and ultimately anti semitism
 
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Institutions after printing press should have their spread value greatly slowed outside their continent of origin.

That would mean that if institutions would spawn historically the Europeans would have great issues embracing Manufactories. ;P

National ideas power creep also makes it quite hard to conquer as easily as Europeans did late game. Although India should be both diplomacy and conquest, not just conquest

The problem with Europeans conquering India is that without the massive power vacuum reulsting from the Mughals' collapse Europeans would have never made significant inroads into India. In fact, even until the end-date Great Britian could not engage the Indians head-on - they tried during the first Anglo-Maratha war and if we are generous to the British we could call that a draw. After that the British worked hard to break the inter-Maratha alliances, so that they could always fight Indians with Indians of their own.

It wasn't really until the Anglo-Sikh wars that the British would more or less waltz into natively ruled territories again.
 

PyroMegaManZ

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@Battlex

What!? Anti-Semitism?? I do not see the connection whatsoever and find such an accusation quite astounding.

Academic suppression in line with political agendas is quite literally a tale as old as academia itself, and it is impossible to deny the fact that unregulated boards of often political individuals or individuals with vested economic interests would apply their own political sway to academic research (even if it is unintentional). In Australia it just happens to be that most of these boards consist of people who were born before Australian Indigenous people were recognised as equal citizens, and long before Terra Nullius was finally and officially rebuked.
 
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I would just like to remind people that in Australia the word some used by some people in their posts on this thread to describe the Indigenous nations are not too dissimilar to the use of the n-word in American culture to describe people of African descent. On an additional note the myth of all First Nations people being hunter-gatherers is just that, a myth. It was based largely in the Terra Nullius doctrine used to justify the cruel treatment and genocide of these people.

Now that historians are not barred from researching deeper into these topics there has been increasing evidence to find that they were mostly an agricultural society that built buildings and tools out of various materials (stone and wood) and sailed out into the ocean to trade with some nearby nations (including the Indonesian islands). They also had democracy and republics long before the Classical Greeks came along; governmental systems in some cases nearly indistinguishable from that of a single-chamber parliamentary system. They did engage with wars with the British (unless we are now considering armies smaller than 5000 in size as "skirmishing armies" which means we would need to remove most HRE nations) and they also traded with the Ming on at least four occasions between 1500 and 1650.

There were certainly still nations that were mostly hunter-gather societies that were forced to roam around due to the lack of resources available deep inside the interior desert of Australia, but these nations aren't in the scope of the upcoming EU4 update.

Essentially what I am saying is that you can be upset about some game features being bugged, or lacking updates, but this shouldn't be used as a continual excuse to pretend that these people had no impact on history in this time-period or that it is ahistorical that they are included in the game. And also what I am saying is to stop using that word to define these people.
the sad part is that you are absolutely right
 
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This thread became barely readable. What was it about already?
Ancient Written sources hint that it's about a much required balance patch. Oral sources might disagree though. Their reliability is still being discussed.

But seriously, now that the Australian n-word (said n-word being native) debate seems to be settled, we could go back to OPs issues.

EUIV has one glaring issue, that is only rarely mentioned: the developers focus on adding new features while completely ignoring the ones made in the past.

One big update focused exclusively on fixing bugs and improving balance and the game becomes infinitely better. I am really trying not to be grumpy and pessimistic because I really love this game, but unless the developers realize their mistakes, it will only get worse. I can bet 20$ the 'over 500 bugs fixed' in the upcoming expansion will not matter much in the grand scale of things.

OP made a list and I want to focus on two points there:
  • African tribes equally technologically advanced as the most innovative Western powers, thanks to a completely broken and unbalanced Institutions system.
  • A whole lot of possibilities and options that exist only technically. Providing a loan to another country is broken? Better make the whole feature practically unusable instead of fixing it. Apply this mentality to many more of those features.

Institutions should significantly slow down after leaving Europe and the threshold for dev-jumpstarting them outside Europe be increased. Maybe also tie increased institution embracement cost to tech group. I know tech cost and tech group were consciously disconnected, but I think this at least has tech group do something regarding tech. Otherwise it's just a pip counter and especially in single player late games pips aren't that important anymore. Tech group should do more than that and influence tech as a further factor in slowing down technological progression outside of Europe. Right now the entire world is way to similar in tech. This shouldn't be the case. Nations outside Europe shouldn't organically be able to embrace institutions before Europeans do. And I know that the Chinese invented printing presses first, but this is an abstraction. The player will find a way, but the ai should be more historical in that they gradually fall behind in technological relevance.

The other things is about features that are somehow left on the wayside. Loaning money to countries Was a good example. Another one is selling provinces. That should be reworked. The ai barely does that. Even worse. They barely accept it. Change what makes the ai accept or decline a province sell. And what makes them even sell a province in the first place. Both with the goal of making them have more peaceful land restructuring
 
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Aussiehawker

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I have a question. Based on these sources should Australian tags be able to send 10 000 soldiers on a fleet of 20 ships to conquer (and govern) provinces in Indonesia and farther? Because if not, what's the point of them being represented as tags instead of colonializable, highly developed populous provinces?

Scratch that. Did they have the capacity to send 1000 men, to a neighbouring province and to annex it? Literally the bare minimum for a Eu4 tag.

No, they didn't.

Nor was Australia particularly densely populated. The entire Continent population estimate is most commonly less than a million, with the most generous estimate being a little over 1 million Aboriginal people. The Americas by contrast, which did have complex settled societies have some estimates north of 100 million. The Americas are bigger, but not 100 times bigger.

The only reason Australia colonisable provinces have higher dev now is that Europeans will colonise the Australian provinces later than most American provinces, so there is an incentive to get them to do so. There really isn't any basis for it, Australia was hardly the crown jewel in the British empire, and half the reason it was colonised, was to protect their actual crown jewel.

@PyroMegaManZ is lying or doesn't know what words mean when he says they are centralised (what, even most European nations weren't centralised at the time) agricultural (limited spots were in Proto agricultural stages, which is not an agricultural society) or had standing armies. They weren't the image painted by racists, but that doesn't mean we have to be contrarians and pretend that they were far more advanced than they were. Aboriginal people not developing, isn't because they didn't have some canny Eu4 leader to westernise. They just never had the agricultural complex to become a more complex society. The native plants and animals just don't support domestication, as they did in Africa, Eurasia and the Americas.
 
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Sapa Inca

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Scratch that. Did they have the capacity to send 1000 men, to a neighbouring province and to annex it? Literally the bare minimum for a Eu4 tag.
Maybe you should read the dev diaries about the reworked native mechanics for 1.31, if it is working right the AI will have a hard time annexing other tags.
 

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Scratch that. Did they have the capacity to send 1000 men, to a neighbouring province and to annex it? Literally the bare minimum for a Eu4 tag.

No, they didn't.

Nor was Australia particularly densely populated. The entire Continent population estimate is most commonly less than a million, with the most generous estimate being a little over 1 million Aboriginal people. The Americas by contrast, which did have complex settled societies have some estimates north of 100 million. The Americas are bigger, but not 100 times bigger.

The only reason Australia colonisable provinces have higher dev now is that Europeans will colonise the Australian provinces later than most American provinces, so there is an incentive to get them to do so. There really isn't any basis for it, Australia was hardly the crown jewel in the British empire, and half the reason it was colonised, was to protect their actual crown jewel.

@PyroMegaManZ is lying or doesn't know what words mean when he says they are centralised (what, even most European nations weren't centralised at the time) agricultural (limited spots were in Proto agricultural stages, which is not an agricultural society) or had standing armies. They weren't the image painted by racists, but that doesn't mean we have to be contrarians and pretend that they were far more advanced than they were. Aboriginal people not developing, isn't because they didn't have some canny Eu4 leader to westernise. They just never had the agricultural complex to become a more complex society. The native plants and animals just don't support domestication, as they did in Africa, Eurasia and the Americas.
But remember EU4 is not 100% history, but the player should be able to change history. For instance, there could be a decision to proceed to the domestication of kangaroos, if the player gets enough admin points to take the decision. That would allow the tribe to have more cattle, and in turn westernize sooner.
 

PyroMegaManZ

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@PyroMegaManZ is lying or doesn't know what words mean when he says they are centralised (what, even most European nations weren't centralised at the time) agricultural (limited spots were in Proto agricultural stages, which is not an agricultural society) or had standing armies. They weren't the image painted by racists, but that doesn't mean we have to be contrarians and pretend that they were far more advanced than they were. Aboriginal people not developing, isn't because they didn't have some canny Eu4 leader to westernise. They just never had the agricultural complex to become a more complex society. The native plants and animals just don't support domestication, as they did in Africa, Eurasia and the Americas.

... [judgment] should not be conducted under the belief that they were inconsequential hunter-gatherer nomads who had no sense of centralisation or any concept of nation-hood among all the other misconceptions about their society that are being proven wrong on a yearly basis....
I quite clearly said "centralisation" not centralised. Centralisation is a scale that all nations sit on and the common suggestion is that Australian Indigenous nation often had such limited centralisation that they did not have any sort of central governing authority or any concept of a nation, which is wrong.

Once again all I can say is that there is really no significance to defining me as a "liar" or "wrong" when you have no sources except for a source from someone who in fact speaks in support of the evidence I put forth (and that quote you referred to I already answered in one of my messages a while back to clear up), and you make no attempt to read or disprove the sources I have provided.
 
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Aussiehawker

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But remember EU4 is not 100% history, but the player should be able to change history. For instance, there could be a decision to proceed to the domestication of kangaroos, if the player gets enough admin points to take the decision. That would allow the tribe to have more cattle, and in turn westernize sooner.

Are you saying that Aboriginal people could have domesticated them, but couldn't bother.

I quite clearly said "centralisation" not centralised. Centralisation is a scale that all nations sit on and the common suggestion is that Australian Indigenous nation often had such limited centralisation that they did not have any sort of central governing authority or any concept of a nation, which is wrong.

Once again all I can say is that there is really no significance to defining me as a "liar" or "wrong" when you have no sources except for a source from someone who in fact speaks in support of the evidence I put forth (and that quote you referred to I already answered in one of my messages a while back to clear up), and you make no attempt to read or disprove the sources I have provided.

You aren't quoting your sources, because you know they don't back your position. You just used them as a gish gallop, then use 'I quoted sources' as a defence when you get called out.

I keep referencing Henry Reynolds, because he makes it VERY clear, that Aboriginals did not fight like Eu4 tags, and there is nothing to support Eu4 style conquest or pitched battles, using Aboriginal tags.

There was no large scale Aboriginal polity. There were small tribal units, and there was a broad 'nation' that had shared language and culture, and they sometimes interacted with other tribal units for barter, marriages or conflict. But there was no leader to enforce a broad will on them, their society was not set up in that way.

Aboriginal societies were some of THE least centralised societies possible. The fact that you keep saying it, is absurd.

Maybe you should read the dev diaries about the reworked native mechanics for 1.31, if it is working right the AI will have a hard time annexing other tags.

Which diary in specific? I looked at the most recent ones but can't seem to find the one you are referencing.

If so, that just means a wait 200-300 years for Europeans to arrive, game.
 
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Which diary in specific?



The same North America mechanics will be used in Australia, I think that finally native council gameplay have some chance to be fun but this will depend of number balance and we will need test to confirm.
 

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And about the Aborigines/Aboriginal dispute, I tell you something from a Latin American standpoint. Listen to me, fellow EU4 gamers. The term aboriginal means "without origin" (ab-origine), and was coined by the Europeans who supposed, quite rightly, that the natives peoples of other continents didn't descend from Teseus or Romulus or Lorenzo de Medici. But they do have origines, of course! Thus the term is considered, not offensive because we fortunately lack such histrionic susceptibilities, but at least improper. Thus indigenous (I know, Indies India whatever), or natives are to be preferred. In this case, I would use native Australasians or Maories from the Big Island.
 

PyroMegaManZ

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You aren't quoting your sources, because you know they don't back your position. You just used them as a gish gallop, then use 'I quoted sources' as a defence when you get called out.

I keep referencing Henry Reynolds, because he makes it VERY clear, that Aboriginals did not fight like Eu4 tags, and there is nothing to support Eu4 style conquest or pitched battles, using Aboriginal tags.

There was no large scale Aboriginal polity. There were small tribal units, and there was a broad 'nation' that had shared language and culture, and they sometimes interacted with other tribal units for barter, marriages or conflict. But there was no leader to enforce a broad will on them, their society was not set up in that way.

Aboriginal societies were some of THE least centralised societies possible. The fact that you keep saying it, is absurd.
Would my provision of in-text citations suddenly compel you to the belief that I am speaking with truth? I have made no inclusion of such in-text citations to date due to the fact there are very few portions of any of the texts I sourced earlier which are not directly relevant in some capacity to my discussion. I felt this meant it was better to just cite the whole texts themselves, because it is almost all relevant, and then let people search through at their own perusal to ascertain if they believe these sources.

I will repeat what I said earlier in regards to your Henry Reynolds quote; yes it is true that other than a few battles here and there, large-scale battles between the Indigenous population and the British nearly came to a complete stop within about twenty years of first settlement due mostly to a. sudden depopulation and b. skirmishing tactics are the most useful tactics against overwhelming firepower. There were still some bigger battles, but these led to extremely high casualties in some cases.

If you are willing though to consider Henry Reynold's account on this topic reliable, will you consider his evidence he provides on topics such as the nature of Indigenous Australian society as reliable too?
 
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