• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CaptRobau

Master of the Universe
66 Badges
May 6, 2009
2.919
339
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Iron Cross
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
Without PI making their own system for this there are two ways this can be done with modding:

1. A generalized political reform called Colonial Policy with a number of options such as exploitation (probably a better name), assimilation, settler colony, local rulership. The advantage to this is that it can be something that can be reformed. From 1830-1870 the Dutch had the 'Cultuurstelsel' in the East Indies. This was a very exploitative economic system which caused a lot of poverty and starvation for the Indonesians. Due to the book Multatuli, which was released in 1859, the Dutch public became opposed to this system. Public outcry also resulted in the cessation of barbaric practices carried out by King Leopold's goons in the Congo. In the case of the Belgian Congo, an event would annex the Congo to Belgium if exploitation was repealed in Belgium itself (as happened in RL). Another advantage is that it's set from the start. A state-by-state system would require events to add the modifiers. The disadvantage is this method is that there are no differences between states. So if there's exploitation in British Nigeria, there's exploitation in British Canada as well.

2. The other way is to have events launch that ask the player what to do with each state. This means a lot of events at the start of the game and no reform movement backing changes. It does allow differences between different colonies.
 

Grubnessul

Your Friendly Dictator Next Door
76 Badges
Dec 17, 2006
6.000
559
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
You could add a culture or continent or slave population check for such a exploitation event.
 

Hibernian

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
73 Badges
Feb 16, 2008
2.379
3.032
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Rome Gold
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Darkest Hour
The map of Africa above doesn't look right to me. There were many Portuguese enclaves as well as a few Spanish ones that are not represented there. I see Gibraltar is British which happened in the 18th century so no way that map is accurate if it is excluding all the enclaves.

Are you referring to my map? The map is just the Victoria 2 provinces map and is representing the situation in 1836. What's wrong with it exactly? I'm aware that there were lots of Portuguese (and other European) coastal enclaves, but most of them can't be represented on the VIC2 map (they're far too small), but if you have any suggestions then please do say so.

I do agree with you that the way to just hit "colonize" and it becomes yours is totally ridiculous, innacurate, and offensive to Africans though. But the actual fighting and easily beating them I agree with the game maker.

Well on that I definitely agree, I think colonisation should at least cost money and resources.

I'm not saying they didn't resist, I'm saying that what resistance they did get was small enough that it'd be more properly represented by rebellions in colonial territory that reverse your progress. There were major wars- And indeed, some of the major powers could afford to be more represented- But essentially the rule of thumb throughout the area was "Kick down the door and win".

No, I'd say there was a definite difference between the late 19th century and all the previous centuries when Europeans were interacting with Africa. In 1800 the Europeans literally couldn't conquer Africa (and they did try), it was not until they had a great superiority in Military technology and had overcome Tropical diseases.

As I mentioned, the rebellions were few and far between during colonization, which as mentioned is more in the kin of the actual leader rising against you in a rebellion more than anything (The amount of nations needed to fill the whole of africa would be simply absurd and it'd absolutly kill your infamy) ...

Rebellions are fine (and can happen when we put in all the African cores), but you obviously haven't actually tried NNM then or you would see that we already have created all the African Kingdoms and there isn't an absurd amount of them (~45) and they will not kill your infamy because we came up with a new Casus Belli system which allows European countries to annex African countries infamy-free after 1880.

It took nine wars for the English (the greatest military and economic power in the world by a large margin in the 19th century) to subdue the Xhosa, and four to subdue the Ashanti. The Zulus, though they eventually lost, also famously annihilated an English expeditionary force. Whether you think it is absurd or not, it actually historically happened that Africans put up a hell of a fight and could repel Europeans - no, not all the time or even most of the time, but it did happen. In the game, however, the chances of an African country not being completely annexed by Great Britain in a war are essentially zilch unless the AI does not actually land troops.

Indeed, my point exactly.


Edit:

Without PI making their own system for this there are two ways this can be done with modding:

You could add a culture or continent or slave population check for such a exploitation event.

I think we already have some set of events like that in PDM (or is it NNM, I forget) where get can choose whether to exploit the natives (which will give you economic benefits, but cause militancy in the colony) but later on it can get exposed and you'll loose prestige, etc. Though a more fleshed-out system would be welcome (didn't they do something similar in AoC?).
 
Last edited:

Phalanxia

Lt. General
70 Badges
May 6, 2009
1.217
82
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
AFAIK, in Victoria I you had a concept called "colonial war", which could change borders in colonial areas without battles in Europe.
These were very annoying, and universally hated.

Firstly Phalanxia, I must say that I very much agree with your points and have been arguing them myself for some time. Africa in VIC2 is extremely poorly represented, it's like the Devs were going to make more countries but just made Sokoto and gave up (resulting in it literally just sitting there on it's own for the entire game, until getting conquered). I've pointed out the problems to the Devs several times, but they seem to be uninterested in doing anything (i.e. like when I pointed out that Africa doesn't have enough Population, though I just fixed that one myself).
That's a great post, thanks for contributing. Your map of Africa is much more interesting than the current version, and it would be awesome to see something half as detailed in Vicky itself. How do you feel about the current colonisation mechanics regarding beige areas? Also, is there a process by which Ethopia unifies itself through event? I can't see the devs putting in nine different tags for Ethiopia, given that the Abysinnian state is much more familiar to the the average player, and that also it was the only native state which survived the Scramble.

I think another issue with Africa in V2 is the maintenance of colonies does not seem to be represented as a cost to the state.

Almost all of the settler colonies (Kenya, South Africa, Algiers, French West Africa, etc.) ran at a loss, at least for the first few years, while infrastructure was developed. Congo was unusual for running at a profit in the first three years, and this was because of brutal use of force by the Belgian crown, which suffered significant infamy and loss of prestige when the Congo rubber-gathering processes were publicized.

Another significant issue, in my opinion, that is not covered in the game are European policies towards the natives. The British, for example, in Nigeria used local rulers to enforce their rule, a sort of vassal relationship. In other regions, like Kenya, they encouraged Europeans to become landowners there. The French, on the other hand, used the assimilation system, and theoretically made (the majority of) their African possessions actual French provinces with representation in parliament-- they had unusual testing systems wherein they determined if Africans were 'French' enough to be French citizens.

I'm not even sure what the German model was, but I do know there was a genocide in Namibia under their rule (German Southwest Africa was how it was written in what I've read).

So, the economic models could be divided into at least 4 categories: brutal repression (German Southwest Africa, Belgian Congo under Leopold, Dutch spice islands), assimilation (French Algiers, West Africa), settler colony (Kenya, Cape colonies), or local rulership (Nigerian sultans)

Do these categories make sense? How could they be translated into game terms?

I sympathise with the idea of making the colonial system more detailed, but this issue is big enough to deserve its own thread. Feel free to start it if you wish!

My thoughts on the issue that I'll copy-paste into any new thread on the topic: given that some of these administration policies were essentially institutionalised crimes against humanity, I'm wary of allowing the player to be too repressive. That said, imperialism can't be sugar-coated, and it's something the devs would have to think about quite carefully if they choose to tackle it.

The categories do somewhat make sense, but I would say that those policies were more directed by the local climate and economy than being completely directed by the government/player. Those areas of the world which were tropical and inherently unfriendly to European settlement such as the Congo, the Dutch East Indies etc. were never the target of serious long-term European settlement. I would also group Rhodesia and Kenya into this category, given that the white percentage of the population was so small in both cases (About 1% in Rhodesia).

Assimilation is a potentially misleading term, as it implies that the whole of society was the subject of a project by Europeans to "uplift" them to Western standards. This was not the case, as Europeans recognised how dangerous an educated society was - nearly all of the independence leaders in the post WWII era had at some point been educated in the Westernised, educated elite. There were never any attempts by European powers to fully integrate the natives of their colonies into the colonist society. Japanese policy towards Korea is the exception that proves the rule, as the Japanese claimed that the Japanese and Koreans were really just the same people, something that was not possible to do in any other instance of colonialism.

In light of this, I would propose three different categories: exploitation, client rule and settler colony, with different strengths and weaknesses depending on consciousness, militancy, RGOs, climate etc. One thing that comes to mind is that settler colonies should be able to build factories.

French Algeria was much more of a settler colony than it was an assimilation based one. At the start of the 20th Century, a third of the population was European.

I remember reading somewhere that outside of Namibia the German colonies were the best administrated in the colonised world, but I may be completely wrong and would be happy to e challenged on it.
 

degen83

Major
99 Badges
Dec 22, 2007
664
20
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
I agree colonising needs to cost money/resources.

Right now you just use a national focus for a few years and you get a colony. It doesn't reflect the cost of the colony nor the resources needed to build it up either than it usually having poor infastructure so you spend a few years building up its infrastructure to make the rest of your empires.

I like going into Africa and gobbling up states there, but I think it is too easy with the way it works now.
 

murlocmancer

Colonel
12 Badges
Dec 4, 2010
1.012
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
German colonies were considered the best colonies, although the beginning was very rough.

But on the other hand, I don't think they should tackle the bad parts of colonization as this isn't a human rights game, this is a game of enjoyment. And to take offense from a game from simple words like "Westernazation" is being to picky and emotional. But colonzation should be given some flavor and more states would be a nice thing to see.

Although egyptian Ethiopian wars shouldn't happen, although they were "neighbors" in a sense they had little contact. Some possible way to fix that would be good, as the egyptians or ethiopians wouldn't of been able to lauch offensive war campaings really. And Ethiopia should be a far more difficult target, but I think AHD may have some good fixes for that.
 

unmerged(410387)

Sergeant
3 Badges
Nov 13, 2011
63
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
I hate to be cheeky, but considering the Battle of Annual (where about 3000 North Africans destroyed a Spanish army of 23,000, 5000 of them Spanish regulars) happened in 1921, that's an odd argument for a Spaniard to make. :)

Hahah. Yes our country was horrid then. After we were steamrollered by the Americans and lost all our colonies, we were in sharp decline and political upheaval at home. The battle was poorly planned and the invasion dumbly executed. If you do some readings on the battle you will arrive at the same conclusion. If it had been the British in the same battle they would have easily won. Or the French. Maybe even Portugal hahaha
 

Hibernian

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra
73 Badges
Feb 16, 2008
2.379
3.032
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Rome Gold
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Darkest Hour
That's a great post, thanks for contributing. Your map of Africa is much more interesting than the current version, and it would be awesome to see something half as detailed in Vicky itself. How do you feel about the current colonisation mechanics regarding beige areas?

Well, I haven’t played it, but I've heard that Pride of Nations has a much better and more detailed colonisation system, where you can make treaties with local rules to create protectorates, etc. If we stick with the current colonisation mechanic of NFs, then I would at least want to see those costing money and resources (and maybe having some influence on the political debate). But only Paradox could add stuff like that.

Also, is there a process by which Ethopia unifies itself through event? I can't see the devs putting in nine different tags for Ethiopia, given that the Abysinnian state is much more familiar to the the average player, and that also it was the only native state which survived the Scramble.

Yes, the setup is meant to simulate the Era of the Princes when Ethiopia was split up into rival factions of lesser kings competing to become the Emperor (Negusa Nagast). There are two events for the three Coptic Christian Factions (Gonder, Shewa and Tigray) to be able to conquer the others, become the Emperor and create the country of Ethiopia. Then Ethiopia gets cores on all the rest of the smaller Muslim and Pagan kingdoms (the area of all modern-day Ethiopia and Eritrea) and gets another event that boosts them if they can unite the whole country.

Although egyptian Ethiopian wars shouldn't happen, although they were "neighbors" in a sense they had little contact. Some possible way to fix that would be good, as the egyptians or ethiopians wouldn't of been able to lauch offensive war campaings really. And Ethiopia should be a far more difficult target, but I think AHD may have some good fixes for that.

Well I know what you mean, but there were actually several invasions of Ethiopia during the period. The British sent an Expedition in 1868, Egypt tried to invade Ethiopia in 1875 and the Mahdist Sudanese also tried to attack Ethiopia in the 1880s (see Battle of Gallabat). The main problem is that terrain in VIC2 just doesn't have as much effect as it should, going into Mountainous terrain, especially in an uncivilized country where there may not even be roads should be extremely difficult, and the natives should get some big advantages fighting on their own territory, but that would require a better combat system.
 

tului

General
109 Badges
Oct 27, 2009
2.113
303
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
I wouldn't mind the next expansion dealing with just colonialism, imperialism and adding depth to the "minor" nations' side of the equation. We'll have to wait and see though, hopefully this sells enough to prompt a second.
 

marnues

Major
53 Badges
Sep 1, 2010
615
55
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
What about accurately depicting Chinese zones of control? Or separating the work of Western corporations from their respective governments? What about religious conflict or multiple currencies? There are many abstractions in this game and the obviousness of leaving the Dark Continent beige is far from the most egregious. I concur that I would love to see a more detailed colonisation and sphere of influence model, but suggesting it in the guise of African pride is ludicrous. The attribution of the Dark Continent meme to racist nonsense is a clear misunderstanding of the times. And the way you propose the Scramble for Africa is a different abstraction that ignores how effortlessly sub-saharan Africa was colonized. Again, I'd love to see something more historic and more inline with the struggles in British India or Central Asia. And I give you that the inclusion of Sokoto and Zulu are dubious without the others. But creating African states without a better colonisation module, or a module to simulate corporations is moving in the wrong direction. Sub-saharan African states should be generally harmless and conquerable by mercenaries without requiring the regulars ever get involved. The best method is exactly as already available.
 

ZomgK3tchup

Into the Future
128 Badges
Dec 25, 2009
4.969
4.593
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Lead and Gold
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Gettysburg
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
What about accurately depicting Chinese zones of control?
To represent this and the overall de-centralization of the Qing Dynasty, Paradox is introducing "sub-states" in the next expansion.

Concerning African nations, I'm particularly concerned about how pre-colonial borders would match up with colonial ones. How does one represent the conquest of minor African states without leading to messy borders, random blotches of colonial territory, and so forth. Currently, Africa is set up so that the Great Powers produce something somewhat similar to Africa in the early-1900s, but even with an almost empty continent, the AI still manages to screw things up and turn the whole place into an ugly mess. Unless Paradox dedicates a whole "Scramble for Africa" expansion to the game, I don't really see them giving this justice it deserves (though I must admit, they've been pretty good about fulfilling feature requests lately. Go them.)
 
Last edited:

Liamjon13

Sergeant
75 Badges
Jul 21, 2011
73
0
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • 500k Club
I would personally like to see angola's life rating increased to 30 - 20 so that portugal can actually take the whole colony rather than just having this annoying coastal strip that screws up borders
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.425
38.659
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
I would personally like to see angola's life rating increased to 30 - 20 so that portugal can actually take the whole colony rather than just having this annoying coastal strip that screws up borders
How far inland did Portugal actually colonize before 1880?
 

CaptRobau

Master of the Universe
66 Badges
May 6, 2009
2.919
339
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • Iron Cross
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
How far inland did Portugal actually colonize before 1880?

I did some look around and found out that there were a few forts in central Angola by the 18th century. This could be translated in Portugal controlling the province of Kuito in 1836. One could assume there was some small measure of control in the rest of the North and South Angolan states. This would make a nice border, making a failed Portuguese colonization attempt look less ugly.

Mozambique was a different story. There the conrol was really located only on the coast and along a few rivers. Perhaps here a few of the historic provinces they had could be traded for provinces that would make the border look decent.

An alternative would be to allow Portugal to sell the provinces to the countries that controlled the inland provinces.

Ideally, the liferating techs would be moved to inventions. Subsequently a series of events/decisions would trigger after the first country researches Nationalism & Imperialism/Machine Guns that would first give that country the liferating inventions, followed some time later (a year?) by the other Great Powers at the time. Some time later, the then secondary countries and countries which have a possesion in Africa get the inventions. This would mean a much higher chance for a Scramble for Africa and probably a 50/50 chance of Portugal at least nabbing some of its RL possessions.
 

Kyoumen

General
34 Badges
Dec 6, 2009
2.211
4.538
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Deus Vult
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
And the way you propose the Scramble for Africa is a different abstraction that ignores how effortlessly sub-saharan Africa was colonized.

It wasn't effortless. It took many wars and the European powers didn't even win all of them. Most people know that Ethiopia defeated and humiliated Italy, and most know that the Zulu annihilated a British expeditionary force, but there were many other battles and even wars in the period that Europeans didn't win. The Ashanti wiped out a British expeditionary force and twice came very close to throwing out the British from Ghana entirely in a nine-year war that ended just before game start, and included Ashanti forced defeating British forces in open battle. Overall it took four wars over seventy years for the British to finally defeat and annex the Ashanti (and it was only the third war in the 1870s where the British first actually gained a victory and significant concessions), and the British were the most powerful country in the world by a wide margin. And yet the Ashanti aren't even represented in the game, despite having a better record against the British (and taking far longer to subdue) than the Boer states.

This is not exactly the only incident where sub-Saharan Africans gave European colonial powers a bloody nose, to put it lightly.
 

Snaggleooo

First Lieutenant
93 Badges
May 17, 2008
289
48
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • 500k Club
Despite many shortcomings, I think Pride of Nations got some of the colonial game right. The slow but steady increase in power in a province due to trading posts or roads or schools made it feel far more dynamic than whacking a NF in an area and watching the number go up. Also, I think it had colonial troops, which were smaller than the regular regiments, but didn't recieve the very heavy maluses and attrition that regulars suffered in African campaigns. I think it'd be relatively easy to implement a system in V2 where regulars suffered terribly in colonial wars and a new colonial infantry regiment (perhaps of 1000 instead of 3000 men) was introduced.
 

Israel Hands

Second Lieutenant
116 Badges
Jul 6, 2007
160
42
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
Despite many shortcomings, I think Pride of Nations got some of the colonial game right. The slow but steady increase in power in a province due to trading posts or roads or schools made it feel far more dynamic than whacking a NF in an area and watching the number go up. Also, I think it had colonial troops, which were smaller than the regular regiments, but didn't recieve the very heavy maluses and attrition that regulars suffered in African campaigns. I think it'd be relatively easy to implement a system in V2 where regulars suffered terribly in colonial wars and a new colonial infantry regiment (perhaps of 1000 instead of 3000 men) was introduced.

Pride of Nations had lots of great ideas that would import into V2 quite easily. Since they're all Paradox now, I don't see why Paradox material doesn't turn up in Paradox France games and vice versa. I would love to see the toukoluer in V2.
 

Soulstrider

God Emperor
35 Badges
May 13, 2011
1.032
11
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Cities in Motion
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Dungeonland
  • Deus Vult
  • Darkest Hour
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pride of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
How far inland did Portugal actually colonize before 1880?

I do believe most of the actual Angola and Mozambique and they did try to colonize the strip between those to regions but the British didn't allow them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Map

An alternative would be to allow Portugal to sell the provinces to the countries that controlled the inland provinces.

That would be historical I believe, If I remember correctly the Germans and the UK had plans to buy the Portuguese colonies, though I don't know if the Portuguese government was aware of this or not.
 

marnues

Major
53 Badges
Sep 1, 2010
615
55
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
This is not exactly the only incident where sub-Saharan Africans gave European colonial powers a bloody nose, to put it lightly.

Bloody nose? Taking out an expeditionary force might be worth a stubbed toe. The only war worth mentioning is the Second Boer War, which considering that Orange and Transvaal are not what we're talking about, it hardly matters. Upon further reading it seems to me that the Ashanti and Zulu are romanticized by the British because they actually put up a fight. Not much, but fight they did. African casualties even for native victories were obscene. And once Britian actually brought their guns to bear, the fighting was ended quickly. Bruised British pride does not dictate that African nations should be treated as states.
 

unmerged(205148)

Major
5 Badges
Apr 28, 2010
584
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
I don't think that Africa should be filled with states, but it needs three-four more. Sokoto just feels lonely alone in West Africa (so ronery... so ronery...).