Africa: A big empty hole?

[twinxor]

I know the Victorian attitude might have been that sub-Saharan Africa was trackless wasteland full of chaotic tribes, but this is not a political map of Africa in 1836.

Ethiopia, Sokoto, Madagascar, and no other indigenous African states? Please. No Buganda, no Rwanda, no Bornu, no Oyo, no Wadai, no Ashanti, no Darfur... Sure looks like we're going back to the ludicrous Vicky 1 colonization model, with every unowned territory filled with innocent savages that automatically assimilate into your benevolent empire (with no militancy to boot, because they've never even heard of government!) I want to play a game about history, not some fantasy from my school history textbooks.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Victoria is hardly suited for simulating what went on in Africa, hence abstracting the natives away (hopefully with the occasional native revolt) is suitable for both dealing with colonization and making the scramble for African feel somehow different than the expansion of European influence in Asia, which is also an important objective in itself.

I'm also loath to advocate introduction of yet more states the internal dynamics of which are an afterthought in the Victoria system. It just doesn't handle traditional states well - it just slaps them with the "Uncivilized" tag, and puts feudal Japan, imperial China and tribal Zulus into the same category.

 

[Temrek]

We know very little of their colonization model, I would not be surprised if coherent african states would actually make colonization to easy and to quick.

 

[Alexander Seil]

We know very little of their colonization model, I would not be surprised if coherent african states would actually make colonization to easy and to quick.

Well, in the original Victoria model, it would result in conquest of 95% of the continent by the human player within the first 10 years of the game - the remaining 5% would be one-province states remaining from whatever there was to begin with, judiciously left alone as to avoid incurring the penalties for annexation :rofl:

 

[Andrelvis]

Cool, Hedjaz will be in

As for Africa, well, it may not be ideal, but it's not a very important issue either, as we can just mod those countries in easily.

 

[twinxor]

We know very little of their colonization model, I would not be surprised if coherent african states would actually make colonization to easy and to quick.

Judging by the first Vicky, that's an flaw in the model that lets you carve up uncivilized countries in free wars with no consequences, not a problem with the existence of African states.

 

[Andrelvis]

Well, in the original Victoria model, it would result in conquest of 95% of the continent by the human player within the first 10 years of the game - the remaining 5% would be one-province states remaining from whatever there was to begin with, judiciously left alone as to avoid incurring the penalties for annexation :rofl:

Not in Revolutions though.

 

[twinxor]

Not in Revolutions though.

Revolutions was a little better in that you had to rush to develop the techs before you could start spamming colonial buildings everywhere. It still made zero sense though.

 

[Andrelvis]

Revolutions was a little better in that you had to rush to develop the techs before you could start spamming colonial buildings everywhere. It still made zero sense though.

It made sense to me... you needed naval bases to colonize overseas, and you needed to develop technology to colonize places where living conditions are harsh. You also couldn't spam colonial buildings everywhere, as there was a limit to the amount of states you could colonize at once, 5 IIRC.

 

[Panchito]

Your point is valid, but knowing Paradox if there were states there it would be far too easy to colonize and you'd end up with evenly split Africa between UK and France by 1845.

 

[Herbert West]

OHGamer will mod it to oblivion and back anyway

 

[twinxor]

It made sense to me... you needed naval bases to colonize overseas, and you needed to develop technology to colonize places where living conditions are harsh. You also couldn't spam colonial buildings everywhere, as there was a limit to the amount of states you could colonize at once, 5 IIRC.

I found it pretty trivial as any European nation to rush to grab those techs and put down missions everywhere, though the state limit meant you couldn't grab all Africa at once. You could get around that naval range limit by grabbing ports from uncivilized countries, right?

 

[Alexander Seil]

In any case, introducing more African states without a more sophisticated diplomatic model is a waste of time and doesn't add anything to the game, except awkward questions as to why some minor African chiefdom is treated by the engine the same as China.

 

[OHgamer]

As I've said in another thread recently, Paradox have chosen to depict sub-Saharan Africa (and the South Pacific, where there were several strong traditional states, such as Tonga, Fiji, the Samoa Confederation and Tahiti in addition to Hawaii) this way due to gameplay reasons. However, the wide moddability of the game (if EU3 and HoI3 are anything to go by in terms of what is possible with the Clausewitz engine) means that if a certain group within the player community believe an alternative depiction of African societies would be better, they have the ability to create their own mod to make those ideas into gameplay reality. I have no doubt that someone will likely develop such a mod after the games commercial release, either as a stand alone product or as part of a larger community project.

 

[unmerged(164401)]

you have a point in the fact that claiming a colony is as easy as just pressing a button without experiencing any kind of hostility from the natives.

in the other hand, if you thought about it, the inclusion of these African "states" will not be fun either. how fun is the constant declaration of war on African tribes with little to no resistence.

may be having some kind of revolt(with the African tribe colonized flag) or militancy cost with the claiming of a colony would be better for simulating the scarmble for Africa. filling Africa with some kind of African "states" is definetly not a good idea.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Indeed, there needs to be native militancy - proportional to distance from your own and your enemies' colonies, perhaps.

It would be interesting if missionary and trade activitiy were modeled somehow, as well, with local conflicts providing an excuse for further colonization. I always thought the concept for Vicky's colonial buildings was pretty cool - sadly the "Mission" and "Trading Post" didn't actually work

 

[unmerged(146860)]

In any case, introducing more African states without a more sophisticated diplomatic model is a waste of time and doesn't add anything to the game, except awkward questions as to why some minor African chiefdom is treated by the engine the same as China.

We're not talking about "minor chiefdoms" here, we're talking about dozens honest-to-god Empires, Sultanates, Emirates, Kingdoms, and Confederacies. They had complex centralized administrations, they had cities and borders and heads of states, they fought wars, they engaged in diplomacy with their neighbors, and they engaged in diplomacy with the Europeans. To include Sokoto but to ignore the states in its neighbourhood when they were all at similar levels of technology and political organization is just silly.

 

[Alexander Seil]

And? This is a game. Africa is supposed to feel different than Southeast Asia and utilize different systems, hence they utilize this one. Sokoto is there as an abstraction for other states, the Zulus because, well, people might want to play as them! Unless a different system of interaction with other countries is developed, adding more countries there serves no purpose.

 

[OHgamer]

I think with the greater flexibility of the Clausewitz engine it might indeed be possible to add more African states into the game and still give the feel that they are indeed different from China or Korea or Annam.

Must remember that the Clausewitz engine allows a lot more creativity to be expressed in mods compared to the old Victoria engine, a lot of things that are hardcoded in Victoria may no longer be so in V2 because of Clausewitz.

Just compare what Magna Mundi has been able to do with EU3 vs AGCEEEP with EU2, Magna Mundi has been able to expand many areas of gameplay that were restricted in EU2, from trade goods to forms of government. I will wager something very similar will be possible with V2.

 

[Andrelvis]

I think with the greater flexibility of the Clausewitz engine it might indeed be possible to add more African states into the game and still give the feel that they are indeed different from China or Korea or Annam.

Must remember that the Clausewitz engine allows a lot more creativity to be expressed in mods compared to the old Victoria engine, a lot of things that are hardcoded in Victoria may no longer be so in V2 because of Clausewitz.

Just compare what Magna Mundi has been able to do with EU3 vs AGCEEEP with EU2, Magna Mundi has been able to expand many areas of gameplay that were restricted in EU2, from trade goods to forms of government. I will wager something very similar will be possible with V2.

I imagine so as well, specially with the possibility to add context-specific decisions.