Aethelred's sons, Alfred the Great, and the Witan

[apollo1989vieten]

I have seen a bunch of complaints on the forum about Aethelred's sons being omitted from the game. The Devs say they couldn't figure out a solution that allowed for Alfred to get his kingdom while keeping Aethelred's sons in game.

The current solution in game involves removing Aethelred's existing kids, making him homosexual, making his wife a woman in her late 30s, and having him die in a hunting accident not long after the game's start. Which isn't perfect because Aethelred could still have kids before his scripted death.

Could modifying the Witan tradition of the Anglo Saxons be the key to this problem? Like, maybe underage kids don't inherit if their parent has living adult brothers and/or sons?

 

[pengoyo]

They could also add his son, but make him disinherited. Not perfect, but at least the son would be in the game.

Though I do prefer your suggestion of adult brothers inheriting before underage children, as it add an interesting wrinkle the succession system.

making him homosexual

Note, he isn't set to be a homosexual in the game file. Because of how CK3 handles random number generation on game start, sexuality, like many other unset traits/skills for historical characters, is essentially re-rolled every patch.

Instead he is set to have a lower fertility. Which is more effective than being a homosexual, as homosexuality doesn't have a fertility penalty in CK3 outside of seduction not producing children.

Spoiler: Aethelred's code

33358 = {
    name = "E_thelred"
    dynasty_house = house_british_isles_wessex
    religion = "catholic"
    culture = anglo_saxon
    father = 33355 #(?helwulf, King of Wessex)
    mother = 306023 #Osburh
    stewardship = 8
    trait = education_stewardship_3
    trait = diligent
    trait = shy
    trait = just
    fertility = 0.3 #Reduce chance of children before death so Alfred is more likely to inherit
    840.1.1 = {
        birth = "840.1.1"
    }
    866.1.1 = {
        add_spouse = 306015 #Wulfthryth
    }
    871.1.1 = {
        death = "871.1.1"
    }
}

 

[HistoryDude]

That solution probably has its own issues. I think that living adult sons (or legitimized illegitimate sons) inherit first automatically, so that isn't an issue.

As for the specific case of Aethelred and Alfred the Great... I can think of a couple of ways to solve the issue. The first is an event chain, but that only works for this specific issue and seems a bit like railroading (and, sure, they could make it a setting, but still). The second is to make the (Wessexian) monarchy more elective - which could allow adult brothers to inherit - but most vassals could want a weaker king, so they gain more power.

Someone's bound to make a mod that addresses this or include this in a greater mod project. It's not perfect (due to disabled achievements), but it might be the best that you could hope for.

 

[FishieFan]

I have seen a bunch of complaints on the forum about Aethelred's sons being omitted from the game. The Devs say they couldn't figure out a solution that allowed for Alfred to get his kingdom while keeping Aethelred's sons in game.

The current solution in game involves removing Aethelred's existing kids, making him homosexual, making his wife a woman in her late 30s, and having him die in a hunting accident not long after the game's start. Which isn't perfect because Aethelred could still have kids before his scripted death.

Could modifying the Witan tradition of the Anglo Saxons be the key to this problem? Like, maybe underage kids don't inherit if their parent has living adult brothers and/or sons?

He dies not long after game start due to injuries in all my games. Starting all anglo saxon lords with saxon elective would probably help stop the petty kingdoms balkanising and so preventing danelaw happening

 

[vyshan]

what would be ideal would be having it so that succession can pass from brother to brother like it did historically between Alfred and his brothers.

How I solved this for my mod was having a hidden event that designates Alfred as the heir to Æthelred. This helps to ensure that Alfred is the successor to start with. Disinheriting them isn't that good of a solution because Æthelwold would rise up in revolt against Edward the Elder for the throne. and that civil war should be a potential thing to happen.

 

[Darumaka]

Saxon Succession needs to be taken a look to be honest if you want to accurately represent how power was handed down in the England during Anglo-Saxon times. Almost nowhere in the island were thrones passed unto the eldest sons peacefully. Either the throne passed unto another member of the family, usually a brother (as was the case in Wessex until Egbert broke that streak), it was divided and ruled by 2 (or even 3 in one occasion) co-rulers, a claimant from a rival dynasty seized the throne, or there was a civil war. Sometimes all three at once. There was always a struggle for power and almost always parts of the kingdoms broke off and either reasserted their independence or switched sides between the larger kingdoms.

Northumbria had at least 5 feuding dynasties competing for power at the time of the Great Heathen Army's arrival.
Mercia had the B, C, and W dynasties as well as later Ceolwulf and Aethelred, the husband of Aethelflaed, both of who were from unknown lineages.
While Essex, Sussex, and Kent were no longer independent, they all had a history of co-kings, usually having 2 kings reigning at once. When merged into a single kingdom of "Greater Kent" they served as a sort of practice kingdom for the heir of the house of Wessex.
Wessex itself went for centuries without the crown passing to a child of the previous king, as it usually went to a brother. This trend was broken by Alfred's grandfather and father, but still wasn't a sure thing.

None of this is reflected in the way Saxon Elective works.

 

[Asterios_III]

Aethelred often dies during wars with the Vikings. Also, his sons were not yet of age.
So if a ruler dies in the middle of a war, adding a rule that prioritizes the ruler's adult brothers (or family members) over their unadulted sons should solve this.
However, this is currently not possible with mods.

I hope CK3's inheritance system will be reviewed in the future.

 

[Darumaka]

One solution that can applied is the following: Have Saxon Succession be there from the start for the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. Rework the law so that all sons of a king earn the "Aetheling" trait at birth (similar to the Born in the Purple trait of CK2, not sure if CK3 has it as I've never played in the Byzantines), making them eligible for succession. This trait however can only be passed on by kings, meaning Aethelhelm, Aethelwold, and Alfred (as well as any other sons Aethelred may have) would all be potential heirs upon his death. Have the AI weight their vote more heavily toward older holders of the "Atheling" trait, and have them almost never vote for children unless their opinion of them is extremely high, if they are their guardian, or they could benefit off it in some way (say by becoming their regent now that regencies will be added).

This will ensure sitting kings will always have the pressure of an Aetheling claiming their throne if they upset their vassals, but ensure that if those Aethelings never do then their children become essentially disinherited and only become eligible for succession if no holder of the "Aetheling" trait lives. We know for a fact there were other branches of the house of Wessex that didn't seek to claim the throne such as that of Aethelweard the historian, so in essence they would be those dynasty members without the "Aetheling" trait, still part of the dynasty, but unable to be voted for.

 

[vyshan]

Saxon Succession needs to be taken a look to be honest if you want to accurately represent how power was handed down in the England during Anglo-Saxon times. Almost nowhere in the island were thrones passed unto the eldest sons peacefully. Either the throne passed unto another member of the family, usually a brother (as was the case in Wessex until Egbert broke that streak), it was divided and ruled by 2 (or even 3 in one occasion) co-rulers, a claimant from a rival dynasty seized the throne, or there was a civil war. Sometimes all three at once. There was always a struggle for power and almost always parts of the kingdoms broke off and either reasserted their independence or switched sides between the larger kingdoms.

Northumbria had at least 5 feuding dynasties competing for power at the time of the Great Heathen Army's arrival.
Mercia had the B, C, and W dynasties as well as later Ceolwulf and Aethelred, the husband of Aethelflaed, both of who were from unknown lineages.
While Essex, Sussex, and Kent were no longer independent, they all had a history of co-kings, usually having 2 kings reigning at once. When merged into a single kingdom of "Greater Kent" they served as a sort of practice kingdom for the heir of the house of Wessex.
Wessex itself went for centuries without the crown passing to a child of the previous king, as it usually went to a brother. This trend was broken by Alfred's grandfather and father, but still wasn't a sure thing.

None of this is reflected in the way Saxon Elective works.

all of this.

There is also the fact that the kingdom's didn't run on partition but on appointment. Ealdormen and Eorls were appointed. sadly atm there is not a way to reflect that IIRC.

One solution that can applied is the following: Have Saxon Succession be there from the start for the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. Rework the law so that all sons of a king earn the "Aetheling" trait at birth, making them eligible for succession. This trait however can only be passed on by kings, meaning Aethelhelm, Aethelwold, and Alfred (as well as any other sons Aethelred may have) would all be potential heirs upon his death. Have the AI weight their vote more heavily toward older holders of the "Atheling" trait, and have them almost never vote for children unless their opinion of them is extremely high, if they are their guardian, or they could benefit off it in some way (say by becoming their regent now that regencies will be added).

This will ensure sitting kings will always have the pressure of an Aetheling claiming their throne if they upset their vassals, but ensure that if those Aethelings never do then their children become essentially disinherited and only become eligible for succession if no holder of the "Aetheling" trait lives. We know for a fact there were other branches of the house of Wessex that didn't seek to claim the throne such as that of Aethelweard the historian, so in essence they would be those dynasty members without the "Aetheling" trait, still part of the dynasty, but unable to be voted for.

An interesting idea. Though something I am curious about is how do you handle things like the Cnut dynasty or Harold Godwinson?

 

[Darumaka]

all of this.

There is also the fact that the kingdom's didn't run on partition but on appointment. Ealdormen and Eorls were appointed. sadly atm there is not a way to reflect that IIRC.


An interesting idea. Though something I am curious about is how do you handle things like the Cnut dynasty or Harold Godwinson?

It was possible in CK2, there a Byzantine Emperor could hand titles that would revert to the Emperor upon death of the holder. They were called vice-royalties IIRC.

As for the other question. Have Saxon succession be eligible only for Anglo-Saxons. When Sweyn conquered England he implemented Scandinavian succession so Aethelred and later Edmund having the "Aetheling" trait meant nothing. Popular Opinion harshly decreased upon Sweyn's death and a Popular Uprising began for King Cnut, which he eventually quelled after ferrying his troops from Denmark as he had forgot to move the little flag that summons army to his new island .

As for Harold, Edward the Exile was never king, thus Edgar wouldn't get the "Aetheling" trait (even though he very much was Edgar the Aetheling IRL). Let's modify my Saxon Succession rework so that once no "Aetheling" holders exist, anyone within the kingdom can inherit, giving more weight to members of the same dynasty but also putting substantial weight to powerful vassals (puny counts or 1-duke dukes shouldn't be elected ever under this system). Earl Harold essentially held all the power of England on his hands, even when Aethelred Unraed lived. It would make sense for him to be chosen.

Really though, both of these successions were pretty out-there situations, which are kind of unlikely to occur in-game as they unfolded IRL.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

That solution probably has its own issues. I think that living adult sons (or legitimized illegitimate sons) inherit first automatically, so that isn't an issue.

Just going to list the Anglo Saxon line from Alfred to Aethelred the Unready.

Alfred (871-886). His two nephews were passed over by the Witan and possibly an agreement between Alfred and his brother Aethelred.
Edward the Elder (899-924). His cousin dispute the succession. Together with his sister, he conquered much of the Danelaw. He received submission from the Welsh Princes.
Aethelstan (924-939). Considered the greatest warrior Anglo Saxon king. Made marriage alliances with rulers on continent. Short lived succession crisis with Wessex nobles. Never married or had kids. 3 of his brothers were still kids when his father died. Conquered the kingdom of York, though it didn't survive his death.
Edmund I (939-946). The gains that Aethelstan and even his father had made were lost until 941. Murdered in 946, leaving 2 underage sons.
Eadred (946-955). Temporarily lost Northumbria. no kids.
Succession crisis.
Eadwig (955-959). Was 15 years old, but had enemies among the clergy. His marriage was forceful annulled, he was forced to split the kingdom with his younger brother.
Edgar (959-975). Was a strong king. Also 15 when he got the whole kingdom. He gave large estates to the church
Edward the Martyr. (975-978). Disputed succession between supporters of him and his younger half-brother, whose mother was anointed as queen. The nobles took advantage of his weakness and the chaos to take back lands that Edgar had given the church. Was murdered, probably on orders of his stepmother.
Aethelred the Unready (978-1013, 1014-1016). The murder of his half-brother hung over his reign. Punny nickname. Wise Counsel the poorly counseled. Viking raids started back up in great numbers. Was unable to stop them, so just paid them off. Ordered a murder of Scandinavian in his realm that probably led to his first deposition.

I would like it if the game mechanics could potentially replicate this, not just for England, but also for the petty Anglo Saxon Kingdoms.

My suggestion was based on how Aethelred's sons were passed over and how the succession occurred after Edward the Elder. I would argue that Edmund's sons being passed over initially was also because they were too young.

 

[Steelcan]

The solution seems like it should be pretty simple to me. Saxon succession, witan succession, however you want to call it should be a form of elective monarchy where the eligible candidates are the current ruler's family, claimants to the throne, and any vassals over the rank of duke. Opinion should be weighted more heavily towards the elder members of the current dynasty.

 

[Wokeg]

Yesssss, public outcry for Saxon elective, this is what we need.

Get me ten more pages of discussion and perhaps I can wrangle Code into making it for me. Swarm, fellow Anglo-Saxon fans, swarm!

Could modifying the Witan tradition of the Anglo Saxons be the key to this problem? Like, maybe underage kids don't inherit if their parent has living adult brothers and/or sons?

FWIW, regrettably, succession between titles like this is all hardcoded, none of it's exposed to script. That means that the only way to create or adjust succession types like this is to be a programmer on the project and make them manually - as I understand it, not the hardest thing, but not the easiest either. The key problem (AFAIK - and I am a humble pleb designer) isn't actually setting the thing up, it's performance, it's accounting for edge cases, it's making it work in such a way that it doesn't bork the title if used by hundreds or thousands of characters.

Problem is perhaps over-egging it, that's just sorta... an obstacle in development. Every part of development has obstacles, or else we'd just will things into existence. Unfortunately, because we've not focused on content for either the British Isles or the Rus', we've not had official time to sort this succession type, so it's been sat on the back-burner since release. If it was scriptable, I'd have scripted it already.

The dream'd be having all succession types exposed to script - regent succession actually is and I had a blast composing the factors that determine who's top of the pile there - but I'm pretty certain performance'd just choke on its own tongue and die wheezing if we did that. Anything scriptable is always slower and more performance-intensive than the same in code. Anything called frequently, such as who your heir is, or involving lots of entities, such as every title you hold, or lots of characters, such as every landed ruler on the map plus a few dozen extras for the landless rulers, gets fractally slower and slower. Whiiiiich means any new succession that isn't elective costs coder time, and Code's time is usually at a bit of a premium since they need to make most of the actual features.

The solution seems like it should be pretty simple to me. Saxon succession, witan succession, however you want to call it should be a form of elective monarchy where the eligible candidates are the current ruler's family, claimants to the throne, and any vassals over the rank of duke. Opinion should be weighted more heavily towards the elder members of the current dynasty.

Good news for ye, because that already exists in the title, more or less, and it's called Saxon Elective. It unfortunately isn't really the solution here. Electives don't work very well at the duchy level, and they're per title - it'd kinda work, but it wouldn't really be less hacky than the current solution or the alternative proposed solutions, it'd just be hacky in different ways. We'll get rota succession/sibling succession/whatever we want to call it some day, if I have to spit blood and teeth over this forever, buuut it's gonna require either assigned code time, judicious use of bribery, or substantial finegling, and it's not the only thing on the table requiring any/all of those.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

ROTA succession is not really what I see from Aethelred of Wessex to Aethelred the Unready. The pattern I am seeing is since kids didn't have powerful backers, their adult relatives took power. Not as regents, but as full blown kings. If the system was ROTA, Aethelred's son would have had more of a claim and could have potentially gained more support. Neither of Alfred's oldest 2 brothers had kids for Aethelred to bypass. The saxon election system in practice seemed to have led to at least one succession dispute per a generation. And it gets resolved because one of the parties dies without heirs.

 

[Steelcan]

Yesssss, public outcry for Saxon elective, this is what we need.


Good news for ye, because that already exists in the title, more or less, and it's called Saxon Elective. It unfortunately isn't really the solution here. Electives don't work very well at the duchy level, and they're per title - it'd kinda work, but it wouldn't really be less hacky than the current solution or the alternative proposed solutions, it'd just be hacky in different ways. We'll get rota succession/sibling succession/whatever we want to call it some day, if I have to spit blood and teeth over this forever, buuut it's gonna require either assigned code time, judicious use of bribery, or substantial finegling, and it's not the only thing on the table requiring any/all of those.

Would a method of implementing a "will and testament" or some sort of division of titles from the current ruler be feasible for the player? I'm sure the AI would make a bungling of it, but it seems like something that players should be able to do, and would work for both "Saxon succession" as well as other forms of partition succession where the current title holder can spend favors, prestige, gold, etc... to bypass normal lines of succession and have the titles transfer to another eligible character? Something like how William the Conqueror did *not* pass the Kingdom of England to his eldest son?

 

[Tuo]

It was possible in CK2, there a Byzantine Emperor could hand titles that would revert to the Emperor upon death of the holder. They were called vice-royalties IIRC.

Viceroyalties in CK2 only went as far down as duchies, because if they applied for counties, that'd make playing as such a vassal unplayable, as you'd game over on succession. As the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are represented as duchies, this obviously is not a solution.

 

[Darumaka]

Viceroyalties in CK2 only went as far down as duchies, because if they applied for counties, that'd make playing as such a vassal unplayable, as you'd game over on succession. As the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms are represented as duchies, this obviously is not a solution.

Even if they applied for counties it wouldn't make it unplayable as in order to start the game you'd have at least 1 county to play with, for there isn't a game to start unlanded. The Byzantine Emperor could choose whether to make a permanent normal grant or a viceroyalty. But yes, it did only apply to Duchy+ titles.

 

[Blodhevn]

Couldnt you just make it a designated heir coded event at start? similar to the ones for royal court.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

Couldnt you just make it a designated heir coded event at start? similar to the ones for royal court.

That would be just like disinheriting him. The court event has your heir doing something that your vassals don't like. They will suggest someone else be your primary heir instead. Bowing to their demands results in your heir getting the disinherited trait. I don't really like that idea. There should be some friction between Alfred's heir and his nephew like what happened in real life.

 

[Blodhevn]

That would be just like disinheriting him. The court event has your heir doing something that your vassals don't like. They will suggest someone else be your primary heir instead. Bowing to their demands results in your heir getting the disinherited trait. I don't really like that idea. There should be some friction between Alfred's heir and his nephew like what happened in real life.

i didnt think it did? i think ive gotten a designated heir without that happening. i know that one even is due to my heir doing something bad but i thought there was another version? (one my kid was a sadist blademaster and killed someone and laughed about it, went around being a "duelist" and just straight up murdered people)