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Mar 19, 2001
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Well, forgive me to say so but the way the economy, trade and debt is handled in EU is rather a joke. Let me just suggest some broad lines along such a system could be modeled in EU3.

First of all, I think the economy/citizens should be AI controlled.
It is not the state that primarily runs the economy, but your citizens. You - the state - would however have great influence onm them.

Your citizens would invest in industry, a merchant fleet, agriculture and invest abroad.

You control the big picture: You can set tax rates, take up credits from the national and foreign financial markets, improve infrastructure (roads, canals, ports, etc.) and by investing in the military and other areas help the economy through this expenditure.

Further, there are several policy options that would allow you to further influence the economy. These would have to pass parliament if your constitutional model includes one. Some examples:

a) Guild system (restricts investments, but avoids social tension)
b) exterior and interior tolls/free market (interior tolls are a big obstacle to economic growth and internal trade, but raises at least on the short term state income)
c) embargoes against other powers (impedes trade with that country and worsens relations with her)
d) bureaucratic system (you can sell offices thus increasing your revenue, but this would heighten corruption and thus let the whole economy suffer)
e) Eviction of religious diasporas (this can severely disrupt your economy as seen with the Moors and Jews in Spain and Huguenots in France, reduces however religious tension and lets you gain thus more control)
f) tax rate
g) class restrictions/privileges (I want further to see a class stratification model´and this policy would have its influence on the economy. If granting privileges to the aristocracy (they will demand them) your revenue is reduced (they get some taxes) and the bourgeoisie (the main investor in the economy) will suffer, i.e bad for the economy)

Well, I hope you get it. I want to see certain trade offs. Further you can pass economic decrees that give you more income, but if milking the cow too much, you'll be off worse in the long term.

Only wars and popular resentment often do not allow for a progressive system and as in history, states will always be desperate to increase their revenue.

Also, in the period, powers were practically never able to fight a war without taking up huge sums of credit. You could borrow in the home domestic financial market, which in turn grows with economic prosperity, and foreign financial markets like the Netherlands. Dependent on your financial reliability, previous debts and future prospects, your ability to get credits and their interest terms will vary. If defaulting on debts or postponing interest payments your creditworthiness takes a HUGE hit and generally the financial markets deprived of their capital will plunge those economies in a real depression.

Further, you would influence your economy by opening trade posts and colonies abroad, thus creating markets for products and providing new commodities. The more your citizens invest in those colonies and emigrate there, the more revenue should you earn. Merchant shipping will be built, but the state has to protect it. That's again a MAJOR way you influence your economy. You will have to patrol the seas, so that foreign powers and pirates do not gain the benefits of that trade. This was a MAJOR factor to the decline of Spain and the rise of the Netherlands and England. The Netherlands lost great overseas trade shares because of herinability to protect her merchant shipping and went frequently to war about this issue. This simply has to be modeled. Further, as I have argued elsewhere, the fleet's primary use was precisely protecting your own merchants and threatening others. Not simulating this, makes the naval system in EU rather silly and naval power does not have the vital importance it really had.

As a last point, commodities would not be handeled abstractly but be needed for producing other goods or satisfying market demand. Consider the crucial role, shipping equipment from the Baltic played in maintaining Britain's ability to rule the seas. France, the Netherlands and Spain often blockaded these resources thus hurting Britain a LOT. Also, if this game wants to simulate the Napoleonic wars, blockades and embargoes have to be PROPERLY implemented.
 

The Danish King

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I thought that Embargoes and Tax rates were already in the game. Great post none the less.
 
Mar 19, 2001
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Yes, embargoes are in but not in the sense I ant them to be. Also, tax rates are not variable. Lastly, income is rahter ambiguous I think. There are several very similar concepts that make tracking down your income and where it really comes from rather hard. I think there should be tolls, taxes and credits as revenue/cash sources. Suc a system is simple and makes sense plus allows for more of the right sort of complexity.

Anyway, I am looking forward to a EU-style game that will be developed by Antikgames set in the 19th century and am writing all of what I want to see into a design draft. I have good hopes that some of my ideas will be implemenented in that game.
 

unmerged(485)

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I have never read anywhere in the forums (o.k. so I have a limited time for reading the forum) about why taxes are fixed - you can't raise or lower them - except for war taxes which is something different. Anyone know the reason? Too difficult to implement?
 

celedhring

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When you build tax collectors I think it is supposed that you are actually raising the taxes, hence the revolt risk increase. Of course, it's still a fixed amount and you can't take it back in times of trouble when revolts thrive.
 
Mar 19, 2001
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I think the concept found in do many games of having to "build" something to achieve an effect/improvement is rather rediculous. You don't build tax collectors. Instead you should put a ledger up to the required level. That is far more realistic.

Personally, I would like such rax raises to be subject to parliaments or class assemblies as was done in those days. Spain had to try and convince people in those chambers about the necessity of needing more money for such and such war.

In constituional models, some would provide for the parliament having budgetary powers. I have detailed this elsewhere in far greater extent, but I hope you get what I am heading at.
 

celedhring

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I would love that the game somewhat achieves to represent the struggle monarchs often had with governing bodies to approve their policies. The EU system gives monarchs and absolute control that is very unrealistic. Of course, we also have to take playability into account. Too much complexity could actually work against the game.
 

Alexandre

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Originally posted by Clemens August

a) Guild system (restricts investments, but avoids social tension)


Why would anyone choose a guild system? Social tensions should be counteracted by increased stability, which can be paid for by the greater income generated by a free market.


b) exterior and interior tolls/free market (interior tolls are a big obstacle to economic growth and internal trade, but raises at least on the short term state income)


If these are used, I'd put them in as an equivalent of War Taxes -- an emergency revenue generating system with a stability hit when it is revoked.


c) embargoes against other powers (impedes trade with that country and worsens relations with her)


How do you want to change the existing system?


d) bureaucratic system (you can sell offices thus increasing your revenue, but this would heighten corruption and thus let the whole economy suffer)


Why would anyone want to increase corruption, even for a short term revenue boost?


e) Eviction of religious diasporas (this can severely disrupt your economy as seen with the Moors and Jews in Spain and Huguenots in France, reduces however religious tension and lets you gain thus more control)


Agreed.


f) tax rate


Are you suggesting allowing us to set a specific tax rate, depending upon needs?


g) class restrictions/privileges (I want further to see a class stratification model´and this policy would have its influence on the economy. If granting privileges to the aristocracy (they will demand them) your revenue is reduced (they get some taxes) and the bourgeoisie (the main investor in the economy) will suffer, i.e bad for the economy)


But good for stability (the local nobility supports the monarchy), and good for moral (since the nobility makes the backbone of your armed forces.

Alexandre