Advice needed please help lol

[Galahad Dayne]

so I decided to do my first ironman game in ck2 playing as a count of Withwara , started out with a solid plan to repel the invading nortmen who eventually invade England as always, worked my way up to a duke which wasn't easy, after that my next goal was to band together with the other kingdoms and fight the invaders once they attacked.
It worked and we beat them back, they never attacked England again. I managed to inherit Wessex and become the king, which was magnificent I might add... Little did i know the true enemy, The holy roman empire swooped in and managed to grab some significant amount of land in England. My question is to my much more experienced lords and ladies... How does one fight back in this situation, I want to form England but im stuck he has 30k troops to my 10k, sure I have some allies and i have managed to conquer all of wales but he owns most of Mercia and has his sights set on Northumbria now. Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

[WomboCombo]

The easiest way would be to Swear Fealty to the HRE and take it from the inside. I don't think you can become Holy Roman Emperor unless you become a de jure vassal, though. You can scheme to take some de jure territory, and steal the crown.

 

[Rojobow14]

The easiest way would be to Swear Fealty to the HRE and take it from the inside. I don't think you can become Holy Roman Emperor unless you become a de jure vassal, though. You can scheme to take some de jure territory, and steal the crown.

Yep, second that 1. Sometimes the old adage "If you can't beat em', join em" is the best way to go and still keep your head on your shoulders
Then lie still, and even when your enemies draw close... still you shall lay... and even when they begin to take little nibbles of your land and your pride, still shall you lay..
unil that prime perfect moment comes. You'll know it when you see it, it may be your grandson- or great grandson who finally does it, but when your sitting on the throne and your foes are kissing the ring, it won't matter whether the Wessex flag flies or the HRE, you'll be the one in command! lol

 

[Galahad Dayne]

The easiest way would be to Swear Fealty to the HRE and take it from the inside. I don't think you can become Holy Roman Emperor unless you become a de jure vassal, though. You can scheme to take some de jure territory, and steal the crown.

Thanks I had not considered that but i want to form England, how can i do that if the Hre owns bits and pieces of it?

 

[Galahad Dayne]

Yep, second that 1. Sometimes the old adage "If you can't beat em', join em" is the best way to go and still keep your head on your shoulders
Then lie still, and even when your enemies draw close... still you shall lay... and even when they begin to take little nibbles of your land and your pride, still shall you lay..
unil that prime perfect moment comes. You'll know it when you see it, it may be your grandson- or great grandson who finally does it, but when your sitting on the throne and your foes are kissing the ring, it won't matter whether the Wessex flag flies or the HRE, you'll be the one in command! lol

I love it you're just like me lol, I always roleplay the game instead of min maxing strategy, I love medieval history and you my friend said it perfectly once they are on their knees kissing the ring it wont matter lol, thanks for the advice.

 

[WJS]

Thanks I had not considered that but i want to form England, how can i do that if the Hre owns bits and pieces of it?

If you're a vassal of the HRE, then the English territory will be held (most likely) by other vassals of the HRE. You're free to war and scheme and plot against them from inside the empire, and the Holy Roman Emperor won't stop you. Once you have enough of England, you'll be able to just form the Kingdom of England, and poof, it's yours.

ETA: Just think about your count days and how you schemed to become Duke of Wessex. It's like that, but you don't even need to attack your liege.

ETA2: Be aware that over time, you might just end up the Holy Roman Emperor yourself this way, eventually.

 

[Castimirr]

Another option, though it might be close, is to race them for the rest of the lands. You only need 50% to form a kingdom. I haven't counted but it looks like they have less than that currently. Do anything you can to weaken or undermine their war effort or piggy-back on their successes to steal their targets from them. If you can find a way to switch to a culture that can raid, you can use raiders to selectively become hostile to them, use raiders to free holdings they have captured, then use your non-raiding troops to capture it for yourself. Occupied holdings tend to have smaller garrisons and recently "liberated" ones have almost none, so both can be done with quick assaults.

Also, when they have the inevitable internal rebellion, get retinues/mercenaries into position near the rebel holding that the rebels and HRE will have the hardest time getting to, then declare on their rebels and occupy the isolated holding. If that holding isn't the only target of your CB with the rebels, it shouldn't even give you a creeping war score. However, it should keep the rebels from being able to negotiate peace since they have a holding occupied by a foreign power (I've seen inconsistent results with this, so I'm not sure what conditions allow them to get around it).

Doing so prolongs the war and makes it more likely that other realms take advantage of it to try to grab territory from them. With the HRE dealing with a rebellion and several other wars, you can probably snap off pieces from the rebels and/or the empire. When you get what you actually want, you can probably make white peace (or even surrender) to the rebels and drop out of the war. (Just use a claimant you don't care about for the initial CB.) Or you can try to win that war too and get both territories. If the part in England is part of the rebellion you might be able to just directly grab that if the rebel and HRE armies are busy elsewhere.

 

[Castimirr]

It might also be worth grabbing/forming a small kingdom title elsewhere first so you can vassalize dukes. Then switch your primary title once you can form England. I'd avoid making a custom one though since that will make any dutchies you completely control de-jure part of the new kingdom and make it that much harder to get 50% of England. On the other hand, if you can slow them down enough, some of what they hold now might drift out, making the part you hold now a larger percentage. Though in that case, you will have a harder time reclaiming the land that drifts off later.

 

[WJS]

It might also be worth grabbing/forming a small kingdom title elsewhere first so you can vassalize dukes. Then switch your primary title once you can form England. I'd avoid making a custom one though since that will make any dutchies you completely control de-jure part of the new kingdom and make it that much harder to get 50% of England. On the other hand, if you can slow them down enough, some of what they hold now might drift out, making the part you hold now a larger percentage. Though in that case, you will have a harder time reclaiming the land that drifts off later.

It looks like he already has a King-level title as the Custom Kingdom of Wessex. In that case, I'm assuming that the Duchies of Kent, Wessex, and Somerset are no longer de jure England, but de jure Wessex. However, this means that the greatest threat to forming the Kingdom of England isn't the HRE, but Northumbria, which appears to hold over 50% of the remaining de jure land.

What you'll want to do is somehow get a claim on the Petty Kingdom of Northumbria and take the entire realm over.

 

[Castimirr]

It looks like he already has a King-level title as the Custom Kingdom of Wessex.

Oh, I missed that somehow. Not sure if I was assuming he was a petty king or just not paying attention. But in that case, yeah, Northumbria is the key. If the HRE is already moving on them it might even be worth using Force Vassalizaion if he has the DLC and the prestige (if he can't get a claimant quickly).

 

[WJS]

I'm studying the picture more. These are crude counts, and I'm assuming a 769 start, but it looks like Northumbria has 11 English counties (the top three counties of Lothian don't count), Manaw has two counties, the HRE holds 9 counties, and Wessex holds the last two (Gloucester and Wiltshire). So taking/vassalizing Northumbria will indeed allow for the creation of England.

Now, this is with the following assumptions:

• It's a 769 start, so Shrewsbury and Hereford are in de jure Powys, not Mercia.
• The OP did not hold the Duchy of Hwicce before forming the Kingdom of Wessex.
• The OP did hold 100% of the de jure land, and/or the duchy titles of Wessex, Kent, and Somerset before forming the Kingdom of Wessex.

If these assumptions aren't true, then the calculus changes. However, in any case, taking Northumbria is key.

ETA: Also, dat Bohemia tho.

 

[JRHaggs]

How many ships can they raise?

If they can only move a few thousand of their soldiers at a time, you may be able to catch them as they land in small quantities, rendering their 3x numbers irrelevant.

It's risky, but it could be a fun gamble.

 

[Galahad Dayne]

If you're a vassal of the HRE, then the English territory will be held (most likely) by other vassals of the HRE. You're free to war and scheme and plot against them from inside the empire, and the Holy Roman Emperor won't stop you. Once you have enough of England, you'll be able to just form the Kingdom of England, and poof, it's yours.

ETA: Just think about your count days and how you schemed to become Duke of Wessex. It's like that, but you don't even need to attack your liege.

ETA2: Be aware that over time, you might just end up the Holy Roman Emperor yourself this way, eventually.

Yes I do like those options plotting from within sounds good but for now just want to take over England and eventually might end up becoming the HRE myself

 

[Galahad Dayne]

It might also be worth grabbing/forming a small kingdom title elsewhere first so you can vassalize dukes. Then switch your primary title once you can form England. I'd avoid making a custom one though since that will make any dutchies you completely control de-jure part of the new kingdom and make it that much harder to get 50% of England. On the other hand, if you can slow them down enough, some of what they hold now might drift out, making the part you hold now a larger percentage. Though in that case, you will have a harder time reclaiming the land that drifts off later.

I agree with you let's see what happens cause the HRE have never looked towards the British isles in any of my previous games they have always focused more on the dealings of their own realm but I'm kinda liking this alternate scenario lol, thanks for the solid advice. I appreciate it