advice for England

[ckalaycioglu]

So it's 1452, been four years since I won the Hundred Years War. Ah, those were the days. Anyway, I replenished my armies, am in the process of recovering my manpower after the War of the Roses, and about to get my first national idea - finally. I'm wondering what ideas I should get. I will integrate France in about fifty years, so I don't want an isolationist build, but I also would like to build on England's strengths obviously, get a foothold in the Americas as soon as possible.

What are your suggestions for first three to five ideas, oh hallowed forum members?

 

[gaius valerius]

I tend to go for a diplomatic-military-colonisation Idea, not necessarily in that order. Since you've bested France and brought them into the fold I think it is safe to say that a military idea isn't really that pressing, since you have the combined military might of both nations at your disposal. I always opt for Diplomatic Ideas cause of the fantastic diplomatic bonuses: more relations, more dipl reputation, etc. I'm heavy on vassals since I never blob. Plus a good diplomatic reputation never hurts. I suppose afterwards you might want to pick exploration first, since you want to beat those pesky Castilians and Portuguese to the Americas, or at least arrive there with them. Military is what remains afterwards, I tend to go for Offensive for the discipline and leader bonuses. You could opt to take Exploration before Diplomatic if you want to be mighty mighty fast in exploring, but iirc the limit imposed on colonisation distance impedes direct colonisation untill you've advanced a few tech levels in dipl tech?

 

[TheBloke]

I play England/GBR almost exclusively thus far (I really do need to branch out sometime!)

Here are my thoughts, based on what I've done.

I would take a Diplomatic group first.

Exploration will allow you to get Quest for the New World, and quickly reveal TI, and get the choice picks for colonisation. It's also very handy being able to reveal TI for yourself, going wherever you want. And it boosts Prestige by +1 for each province revealed, making it easy to keep at or near 100.

It's obviously geared to Colonisation, and it's good for that. Besides that, it's a bit meh.

The bonus is pointless - you really don't need a free CB against Pagans; just put a colony next to them, Fabricate, Full Annex. The AE doesn't matter in the New World.

(Maybe this will change in 1.4/CoP.)

Expansion is a much nicer Diplomatic set overall, and a great first choice.

You still get a Colonist, and also an extra Merchant. Extra Diplomatic Reputation, extra Diplomatic Relations, boosted Trade, and an Asian expansion CB as the bonus.

In my first England/GB game, I took Exploration. In my second, I took Expansion. Not being able to reveal TI has been a regular annoyance, but never more than minor. It really has not significantly hampered my colonisation efforts at all. It meant that my first New World colony and annexations happened in 1551, instead of 1490 or so. But I still got all the colonies I wanted, I still annexed all of the New World nations, I still totally dominated Chesapeake trade node.

And I now have a far, far stronger Diplomatic game. I've had up to 11 vassals/PU-minors, and the DipRel and DipRep were vital here. The extra merchant has helped enormously with trade income. The bonus CB is going to be very useful when I push into Asia, which I didn't do at all in my first game.

So this one is down to your taste, but you certainly don't have to take Exploration in order to colonise/expand well, and I would strongly consider Expansion if you're OK with the annoyance of waiting for TI and sometimes not being able to go exactly where you want. Note that once you DOW a nation, you can then reveal all its territory; I used this for example to reveal all Sub-Saharan Africa, as soon as I could see one province of Mali.

I wouldn't take Diplomatic first - as you see below, I like it for my fourth group; but I don't feel it's as strong for an opening idea, because getting an extra Merchant and Colonist early is very helpful.

That said, I could see an argument for taking something else first, and Expansion second, on the basis that the Merchant and Colonist are not so valuable before 1500, and something else might be.

So I could well see an argument for swapping my first and second proposed Ideas - taking Military first so you immediately have 25% Morale and can kick ass in early game; then take Expansion a little later when you can use the Colonist and better use the Merchant, and are now starting to get more hampered by reduced DipRel and Rep and so on.

Second group, Military

I took Defensive second for that 25% Morale. Morale is King. The Army Tradition is also very helpful, as is reducing Maintenance.

This is a very good general purpose strategy. It's maybe slightly less relevant for England-with-France, because you have the French army on your side. But still, in the first 100 years of the game, it's not going to be certain that you can easily beat Burgundy + Austria + others if they do come fight you. And Burgundy have always hated me, especially when I pushed into Antwerpen. So Morale is hard to argue against.

I took this group second, and I think it will be the only Military group I ever take, as I now have both Spain and Portugal as PU minors, and they (well, mostly Spain) basically win all my wars for me anyway. But I feel that if I'd not even taken this, I'd have been constantly worried about morale at least in the early game. And I might have struggled to even get Spain in the PU, as it required beating both Spain and Portugal with 84% WS, with only Austria as a (nearly useless militarily) ally.

Third, I took Administrative

I wanted to take an Admin idea before I took another Diplomatic, as I was regularly short of Dip points and I wanted one of each group.

I took Administrative mostly for the Merc benefits. My thought process was that I wanted to be able to war regularly, and not have to wait for Manpower recovery. I expected to have quite a bit of money - and indeed I do; now in 1600 I make +100 a month - and so spamming Mercs is very helpful. But you need more of them, and if you want them to be a total Manpower replacement, you don't want the costs to cripple you, even if you do have quite a bit of money.

The -25% core creation cost I've also enjoyed. I have been Vassal Feeding extensively in this game, following my heavily Diplomatic strategy. But I still I cored the entire New World myself, because it's already heavily discounted, and I didn't want to have any vassals over there because of the various advantages to annexing. So that extra 25% certainly saved a few hundred admin points. I also ended up coring parts of Burgundy, such as Antwerpen and Breda, which were HRE territory and I couldn't vassal-feed.

+1 Advisors is always generally helpful. When you need a specific advisor, you'll be thankful for an increased chance of getting him. I'm thinking specifically of the +5 DipRep guy, whom I always want when I am annexing/integrating.

I guess this group has had a lower impact on my game than the others so far. Then again, I have spammed Mercs heavily, and in recent wars they have been 80+% of my army, and I've been able to fight, fight and fight again when otherwise I'd have been waiting for Manpower regeneration. So it has been useful, if not decisive.

Fourth, I took Diplomatic

I really wanted to push the Diplomatic game, so this was my natural next choice. That extra Diplomat I really rely on, even though I already had +1 from Embassy, +1 from Curia Controller. I've never had enough Diplomats in this game, I am constantly using all of them (even now, in 1600, when I have 6 total.)

-50% Fabricate Claim is great because I want to war often, and it's not only quicker, it's half the chance of discovery and extra AE.

Rev/Counter-Rev CB: awesome; more war opportunities, even though I'm a Monarchy. And it gives me the chance to choose to change to a Republic if I want, and then I'd get dozens of CBs.

Diplomatic Relations, vital. I not only had up to 11 subject nations, I was also regularly Allying with nations to greatly reduce AE. I've had up to 15 Diplomatic Upkeep at various times, still losing Dip Points even with my current limit of 12 DipRel.

Dip Reputation speaks for itself, can't do without it. Annexing vassal time is so much reduced with +15 DipRep as I have now. Not to mention the chance to diplo-vassalise some much bigger nations. I can currently dip-vassalise Norway, which is the most impressive I've personally had thus far.



That takes me up to the present in my current GBR game. I haven't quite decided what to do with my fifth group, but Trade is a strong possibility. I already have +60 income from 3 merchants, I really want to see what I can do with 6!

My key feedback is that the Diplomatic game is hugely powerful, and I am really glad I emphasised it.

I am now completely unstoppable, especially now I'm also HRE Emperor. Again, Diplomacy helped hugely there: I took four vassals purely for Elector Voting purposes. I'd have had 0 Dip Points forever if I'd not strongly emphasised DipRel, and I'd be stuck with those vassals a lot longer if I'd not got as much DipRep as possible. (Of course, getting HRE Emperor helped even more with all of this - boosting Rep, Rel, and giving me another Diplomat. I have 6 now and it's lovely )

 

[Yenzen]

Note that Expansion also has +Diplomatic reputation and diplomatic slots and an extra merchant for your colonies. I would suggest disregarding the diplomatic idea group at first and going this slightly crazy route:

Exploration --> Defensive (Unlikely you'll finish exploration before you get to this point) --> Expansion --> Whatever (Offensive/Quality/Religious/Innovative is a wildcard) --> Trade (merchants for your many colonies at this stage)

Yeah you probably won't be able to reach anything before you have around level 7 diplomatic tech, but if you take exploration early you'll start with 2 colonists and a bonus to range and settler speed. Early colonization victory depends very much on closing off as much of the American coast as you can before the others arrive.

Defensive since, as a player on the continental stage, you could use the morale and the staying power

 

[TheBloke]

Exploration --> Defensive (Unlikely you'll finish exploration before you get to this point) --> Expansion --> Whatever (Offensive/Quality/Religious/Innovative is a wildcard) --> Trade (merchants for your many colonies at this stage)

I thought long and hard about whether I should ever take Exploration, having not taken it first. I decided against it.

If you take Exploration, take it first or second, or don't take it at all.

You get the colonist from Expansion, and personally I can't imagine really needing three colonists total. Having two is definitely good, and is an argument for going Exploration. But having already taken Expansion, I personally wouldn't want to use up another Diplomatic slot for Exploration that's basically just giving me another two colonists, and the ability to reveal TI.

Bear in mind that being able to reveal TI is a diminishing advantage, the longer you play. By 1550, you will be able to see the coasts of North and South America, which is enough to start annexing New World nations. By 1600, you will be able to see nearly all the Americas, and into India.

So I can definitely see arguments for Exploration over Expansion, though personally I was very happy with my Expansion choice in my current game.

I found the combination of Expansion and Diplomatic to be hugely powerful. It's shaped my progress in this game more than anything else. True, your Idea Groups should guide your strategy (and your strategy, your Idea Groups), but I found particular benefits from the combinations of these groups, their benefits combining to potent effect.

Anyway, if you do go Expansion early, I really wouldn't bother taking Exploration later. Its value is much diminished, and although 1 colonist is a little limiting, it's far from crippling - especially if you get colonising-subjects, like I have with Spain and Portugal. And if you get lots of money, you can just go over your colonial limit and still have three or four on the go, albeit at slower rates.

(Or you can exploit the massive vassal-colonisation exploit and feed all new colonies to vassals; bankrupting them constantly but allowing you to have infinite colonies growing at 50/year each )

 

[Yenzen]

Mh, I'd say that third colonist really helps encapsule all of North America off from Castile before they even get there and picking the best carribean islands. It essentially increases your expansion by ~30% - you also have to consider the settler increase and decreased travel time.

But otherwise it seems that we pretty much agree on ideas. For the third, I would argue in favor of religious (halving relation penalties is huge, but the missionary power isn't that important when natives so easily convert, I'll admit), offensive to stay scary in Europe if you have some military rulers or even innovative which has some surprisingly good ideas and events.

 

[ckalaycioglu]

Thank you for all the great responses.

Now I usually play with Felix Austria, and it's always a very nice diplomatic, soft-power based (though land power backed, obviously) expansion kind of game. And I would like something different from an England game perhaps. I've taken Exploration as a second idea as Austria a couple of times (before the patch that made vassalizing bigger countries possible), but now obviously Expansion is a better choice for them (a must, in fact, alongside Diplomacy). However, for countries with a coast on the Atlantic Sea, I'm wondering if I should be doing the exploration myself like Yenzen suggested and build on that geographic edge I have. Diplomatic ideas for any country in Europe I guess is a good choice, but I'm wondering in this instance if I should go for a double whammy with Exploration+Expansion as 1st and 2nd idea groups.

TheBloke, thank you for your very detailed suggestions, they definitely gave me a lot to think about. I was actually closer to going for Expansion first at one point, gaius valerius also opined toward this choice; and I wasn't aware of the colonizer vassal exploit I doubt I'll ever use it, but I just might if I get really ambitious and gamey at some point. Anyway, as to your suggestions, I love a good diplomatic game, but like I said maybe because diplomacy=Austria for me, I'm leaning towards a more colonising oriented game for England. Maybe with Exploration, I can get fleet basing rights from a native American nation as soon as I can and colonize the Carribean before Portugal and Castille, and also annex those juicy Mesoamericans before them also. Once I get cores in mesoamerica I can annex North American natives as well. Chesapeake is obviously very lucrative for me. And when doubled with Expansion, I think I can capitalize on my geographic edge.

The combination of Expansion and Diplomacy you mentioned is something I'm witnessing in my Austria game, and it's just crazy Diplomatic power obviously coupled with Austrian ideas themselves. So I want to build on England's inherent strenghts as well, whether it be their geographic location, or national ideas. Trade and Naval idea groups are excellent for building on English ideas. However, four diplomatic idea groups at once might set me too far back in Diplotech, and while this was something I can afford with Austria for instance, I feel it would be too much of a burden on Britannia. So maybe I could throw a nice Religious in there, (would Religious be too Austrian of an idea though?) or an Innovative, or Quality/Offensive to build on the discipline idea bonus, or even Economic which I never go for. OR I might go for Administrative as TheBloke suggested since my manpower pool is much lower than other great powers - though I have France as minion-spawner obviously - and I'm currently relying on mercenaries quite a bit - more than any of my previous games with other nations. But maybe I can delay military ideas, since I'm allied with Austria and Castille, and unless these two decide to sour their relations with me and get some sort of military idea, I figure I have nothing to worry about on that front.

I'll still think about it for at least an hour once I open my savegame, but it looks like I'll be going Exploration - Expansion - Administrative(or maybe admin 2nd?) - Trade - Innovative/Offensive/Quality/Economic - Naval or if I get a string of good diplomatic monarchs I can move one of the diplomatic ideagroups one up.

I will definitely write back to report what route I've taken.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

Exploration

 

[unmerged(815621)]

If you won the HYW there is no need for you to take any military ideas until you decide to integrate France (by then you should be an unstoppable force). Use France to diplo-vassal electors and you will be set for a while.

The key things you will need during this: diplomats, colonists, and +diplo relations. Unfortunately, there is not one that will give you all three.

 

[ckalaycioglu]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by use France to diplo-vassal electors? How would France help?

 

[Incompetent]

I'm sorry, what do you mean by use France to diplo-vassal electors? How would France help?

It increases your tax base.

 

[ckalaycioglu]

Oh so after I integrate France. Yes ok, I thought endocrine meant somehow feeding vassalage ties to France under PU with me or something.

 

[TheBloke]

Oh so after I integrate France. Yes ok, I thought endocrine meant somehow feeding vassalage ties to France under PU with me or something.

I didn't quite follow endocrine's remark either, because he seemed to be suggesting that you use France to diplo-vassalise while France is still in PU with you, i.e. before integration.

Now, he may be referring to the fact that a subject nation does improve your Base Tax modifier for diplo-vassalisation. Or at least, I know for sure a vassal does, and probably a PU-minor does as well.

So if you're trying to dip-vassalise NationX, and you check your modifier, then you take on a big vassal/PU and check the modifier again, it will be improved. I think the vassal counts 50% of its base tax towards your modifier. Sometimes this is even more effective than adding new buildings and provinces of your own.

So endocrine might have been referring to the fact that, after you get France in PU, you have a better chance to dip-vassalise than before you took France.

However, you have an even better chance after you integrate France.

I just loaded a save from 1511, right before my France integration was due to complete. I then checked a few dip-vassalisation Base Tax modifiers.

Examples:

Mainz, before integration, -46, after, -11
Brittany, before, -2, after, +30
Lorraine, before, -76, after, -65
Switzerland, before, -82, after, -76

So French integration will greatly increase your base tax, and improve your dip-vassalisation chances.

 

[ckalaycioglu]

I didn't know a lesser partner whether in a union or a vassalage bond contributed to base tax! Thank you for that piece of information as well.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

I didn't know a lesser partner whether in a union or a vassalage bond contributed to base tax! Thank you for that piece of information as well.

Well, unions don't give you any of their tax income, so they don't increase your tax base either. Vassals provide 50% of their tax, so you also get 50% of their tax base for diplomatic actions. Note that it's 50% even if you are a feudal monarchy or Iqta, it's not tied to how much money you actually get from the vassal.

For example, if I still have the Kalmar union intact as Denmark I have a +11 tax modifier on vassalizing Saxe-Lauenburg. If I then grant Sweden independence I still have +11. But if I cancel Holstein's vassalage, it drops to -1.

 

[ckalaycioglu]

Alright, good to know, thanks

 

[zodium]

Well, unions don't give you any of their tax income, so they don't increase your tax base either. Vassals provide 50% of their tax, so you also get 50% of their tax base for diplomatic actions. Note that it's 50% even if you are a feudal monarchy or Iqta, it's not tied to how much money you actually get from the vassal.

For example, if I still have the Kalmar union intact as Denmark I have a +11 tax modifier on vassalizing Saxe-Lauenburg. If I then grant Sweden independence I still have +11. But if I cancel Holstein's vassalage, it drops to -1.

I had no idea vassal tax counted for vassalization, that rocks.