Advice for Castile - dealing with BBB

[HydroAC]

Playing as Castile. It is 1480 and I'm off to a decent start. Enrique died in a tragic accident in a war with Morocco and my heir Juana is a sultry 6-4-6. The wedding fired shortly after good ol' dad died. Portugal is almost visualized (one more war to go...). I've taken some land in northern Africa. I got a lucky break supporting the Pope, who gave me Provence since I had that marked as a 'strategic interest'.

The question is what to do about France.

The BBB (#5 rank) is allied to the Ottomans (#2 rank), who are busy stomping everyone around them with an absolutely huge army and navy.

I can't DOW one of France's other allies (Brittany, Thormond) to get them in a war without the Ottos. All my other likely targets in Europe are still part of the HRE or allied to my ally Austria or the Pope. I suppose I could DOW northern Africa countries and give the land to my PU minions.

I'm worried that without being checked that the BBB will start eating their neighbors now that they've already absorbed most of the English provinces. But a death match against BBB-Otto-Britt-Thomond vs Castile/Arag/Naples and Austria where I'm fighting a bigger army and navy is not appealing.

Once my colonies are up and running I'll have lots of wars in the New World, but that is decades away. In the meantime just chill and hope the alliance web changes?

Advice?

 

[Vulkandrache]

an absolutely huge ... navy.

You have Napels and Aragon.
15 Heavys from you alone and the Ottomans are out of the war entirely.
Throw in some Galleys as throwaway transport hunters if you cant be bothered to micro.

In the meantime just chill and hope the alliance web changes?

Brittany, Thormond

How much better would you want it do be?

I can't DOW one of France's other allies (Brittany, Thormond) to get them in a war without the Ottos

Why?
If you are that worried about the Ottomans you would have considered no-CB Thomond.

 

[HydroAC]

VERY interesting idea on no CB war on Brittany or Tormond, drawing in France. I hadn't considered that.

My allies Austria and the Pope would join either war. I could afford the -2 stability and war exhaustion hit, but -20 AE for no CB and the extra AE from taking land would be brutal. I suppose I could just force France to break their alliance with Ottos, humiliate them, and force them to release a state in a separate peace and take some land from Brittany or Tormond. A Castile/Aragon/Naples+Austria+Pope alliance would utterly crush France+(Brittany or Tormond) war. I'd need more transports to get troops to Tormond, but that is do-able.

Taking land from Tormond would set me up to make inroads on England, who needs to be stopped as a future colonizer. It would also spread the AE form the now DB war away from continental Europe, which is a huge plus.

That could be just the ticket to stop the momentum of BBB and get around the nasty BBB alliance with the Ottos.

Very, very tempting! I've never declared a no CB war before, so maybe its time...

P.S. - I am almost at my max number of provinces to diplomatically form Spain, so I'll have to be careful in expanding and/or grant provinces to my loyal minions

 

[HydroAC]

Let's hear it for opportunity.

The Ottos attacked Hungary, drawing in Austria, Ragusa, Florance, and Albania. The Ottos are losing so far - they can't beat the Hungarian Death Stack of 77 (!!). That must be murder on attrition, but hey - they are my reserves.

When the Ottos are pressed enough they will not honor their alliance when I DOW France. Then I pounce!

 

[otaats]

Can you ally Austria? They would almost always join against France. Also, if Burgundy's alive, they can be a solid decoy. Beware of the French forts, though. They have them on every step!

 

[HydroAC]

The Ottos ended up crushing the Hungarian alliance, which split up and got picked off by the Otto death stacks.

Austria is an ally and RM. Burgundy is still intact. I rivaled the Burgundian early and Burgundy later withdrew their rivalry of me. Maybe it is worthwhile taking the 100 diplo hit to un-rival them, then take the -1 diplo monthly hit to ally/RM Burgundy (I have 4 diplo slots filled already) and then use them as cannon fodder for a war with France? Allying them would also deter an aggressive France from absorbing Burgundy AND improve my chances of the Burgundian Inheritance (which I've never gotten).

 

[Vulkandrache]

The Ottos ended up crushing the Hungarian alliance, which split up and got picked off by the Otto death stacks.

Just waiting and doing nothing was the bigger mistake.
Declaring that war, having your Ships and some of your Army annoy the Ottomans from the sea would have given Hungary more time.
If you have the real balls you could even try to naval invade the Asian side of the strait and siege down the 2 provinces so you can block them off.
You Fort in Navarra + Aragon + Napels can hold France back for a year or two.

You arent likely to get very far from sitting around waiting for the perfect situation.

 

[Viperswhip]

Ahem, well, grats on getting the Wedding...your first war should always be against France, particularly if you have married Burgundy, but regardless. Especially due to this stupid alliance system it is an obligation to do that. However, may I counsel you from your present situation to do something a little different?

Don't worry about France for the moment and instead declare on the Ottos though one of their allies instead? If they are allied to Tunisia or Morroqo or whoever you can easily do just a trade conflict. If they have eaten Byz so much the better, take a province from them if you can and release Byz, one of the best vassals. But feel free to no CB Crimea or whoever if you have to because AE over there doesn't matter at all (oh and marry Poland if they have Lithuana, and support your heir there starting in like nowish lol).

You will have to kill the Ottos eventually, but take a province and force them to break their treaty with France. Do not no CB Brittany or someone else because you get a fair bit of AE from that which will infect everything else you want to do up there, particularly if you get the Wedding.

Also, yes, 15-20 heavies are all you will need if you are careful about taking out all your major rivals early.

 

[HydroAC]

I instructed my PU Naples to get claims on Ottoman lands, so I have 2 claims on Ottoman territory (and other lands around the Adriatic - what a good minion!)

But that doesn't help. Ottos only ally is France, so no joy in declaring on one of Otto's other allies to draw them in.

Good idea on Poland, which has a PU on Lithuania. But I'll likely wait until I get a Hapsburg on the Castilian throne, as happens as often as not. The Hapsburgs are a prolific bunch, so getting in with that clan would be great to grab territory with a PU.

I did an experiment with a no CB DOW on Thomund. It generated 32 AE, which was concentrated on the Ireland area with a max of 13 AE leaking to mainland Europe. This isn't too bad. Once Austria recovers from being smashed by the Ottos that is viable to assist in taking apart France, who they have rivaled.

In the meantime I need to take some land in western Africa where my 1st colony is up and running. Then wars in about 8 years the wars in South America start.

But I REALLY want to take a bite out of France. Allying Burgundy is needed, so I'll have to un-rival them then go over my relationship limit with an alliance and RM . Burgundy and its PUs have an army equal to the French!

 

[atwix]

The question is what to do about France.

go golden age asap, get the bonuses from golden age for shock, take defensive ideas, focus military points.

hit them before france takes élan or defensive. get burgundy as ally, and austria. Rivalling burgundy was your biggest mistake. You should have rivalled france and ALLY burgundy.

Hammer them.

The sooner, the better.

If you wait, they only become harder to take down.

 

[Zephyrum]

Enrique died in a tragic accident in a war with Morocco

tragic accident

"Tragic" "accident"...

 

[HydroAC]

I took the advice Velk and declared a no-CB DOW Thomond.

The French made a B-line for Austria and sieged him down. Austrians immediately folded when their capital fell. Thanks Emperor. So I'm on my own (with my minions).

I peaced out with 78% war score against the French. I demanded Languedoc and Nabone for the Argonese, break their treaty with the Ottos and money. I would have liked to release a country to vassalize, but I'm not big enough to make that work except for one province (which is't worth it since I'm over my diplo rating now). I've got AE in France just below the 50 threshold (**whew!**).

My manpower is down to 6K, but that should be plenty to take out Thomond and their buddy Tyrone by Ireland.

I will say that my PU minions are unreliable. They'd sit in home territory even though I'd set them to Support and given them location goals. Or all pile on in one massive blob that kills with attrition. They are decent when a French army attacks to reinforce, though.

 

[Vulkandrache]

I've got AE in France just below the 50 threshold (**whew!**).

What exactly does that mean?
50AE on France themselfes, where it doesnt matter?
50AE on most of Europe?

I would have liked to release a country to vassalize

That is the most, well, uhh, ahem, "unintuitive" way to go about things.
You should have just taken one Province with a Gascony Core, release that as a Vassal and reconquest their cores next time.
If you are at or over relations limit just sit on the province uncored until the truce is almost over.

 

[HydroAC]

50AE for France, Brittany and upper 40s for low countries. I vassalized Thomond so I can feed them land near England. The 15 AE from the vassalization spilled over to the mainland, which I mitigated with relations boosting. You are right, of course, that I don't care about the AE of France as long as I attack them when the truce timing expires. The next war will be me/Aragon/Naples, Austria and Burgundy.

As to releasing one core, I wasn't thinking of that. I was thinking of releasing the entire nation for zero AE. I'll add your trick to my toolbox.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[HansBaer]

I will say that my PU minions are unreliable. They'd sit in home territory even though I'd set them to Support and given them location goals. Or all pile on in one massive blob that kills with attrition. They are decent when a French army attacks to reinforce, though.

If you set them to supportive they only attach to your armies (be sure to use the allow allies to attach button) and otherwise remain passive. It's usually best to set big subjects like yours no focus.

 

[Viperswhip]

I instructed my PU Naples to get claims on Ottoman lands, so I have 2 claims on Ottoman territory (and other lands around the Adriatic - what a good minion!)

But that doesn't help. Ottos only ally is France, so no joy in declaring on one of Otto's other allies to draw them in.

Good idea on Poland, which has a PU on Lithuania. But I'll likely wait until I get a Hapsburg on the Castilian throne, as happens as often as not. The Hapsburgs are a prolific bunch, so getting in with that clan would be great to grab territory with a PU.

I did an experiment with a no CB DOW on Thomund. It generated 32 AE, which was concentrated on the Ireland area with a max of 13 AE leaking to mainland Europe. This isn't too bad. Once Austria recovers from being smashed by the Ottos that is viable to assist in taking apart France, who they have rivaled.

In the meantime I need to take some land in western Africa where my 1st colony is up and running. Then wars in about 8 years the wars in South America start.

But I REALLY want to take a bite out of France. Allying Burgundy is needed, so I'll have to un-rival them then go over my relationship limit with an alliance and RM . Burgundy and its PUs have an army equal to the French!

Ottos have normally guaranteed someone, check all their diplomatic relations. You should never bother rivaling Burgundy really, you want to Inherit that, not damage them in any way. It's always best to ally them and help them expand wherever they desire (except into France, France gets all that land back in the Inheritance).

However, one gamey thing you can do is feed Burgundy lots of French of preferably other land so that a reasonably sized coalition forms, which will attack them if the Inheritance didn't fire in the first war against France or whoever. I like to feed them Lorraine, you get to keep that.

 

[HydroAC]

Thanks to the advice I've gotten here France has been humbled twice. I used 2 tactics I've never used before: a no-CB war (1st DOW against the French) and in my 2nd war I took one province of a country and then released as a vassal, with the intent of using their claims for future low-AE acquisitions.

Austria spread the Hapsburgs to a rather large Savoy, then Savoy got a weak heir. Well, since I'm a Hapsburg now too I know what to do - marry them and then DOW. The new Savoy PU is 130 warscore, and a nice addition to the Genoa trade node - and great for feeding European provinces in the future.

I'm integrating Thomond. They refused to do any claims on adjacent land that I told them to, so I couldn't vassal feed. I'll work on the other major colonizer England next now that France is being steadily reduced.

Austria is working on getting Hapsburgs on their throne. When (if?) they drop the elective monarchy that will be another target, along with Austria of course. Perhaps I should drop my alliance with Austria so I can DOW them when for a PU when they have no heir or a weak ruler? Hmmm...best leave them for now since they are being **ahem!** fertile with the Hapsburg dynasty.

So the plan is to continue to 1) press the French, taking their rich land; 2) steady wars in the New World to round out my colonies and get gold; 3) start taking land in eastern Africa; and 4) nibble at English islands.

 

[Viperswhip]

Austria is working on getting Hapsburgs on their throne. When (if?) they drop the elective monarchy that will be another target, along with Austria of course. Perhaps I should drop my alliance with Austria so I can DOW them when for a PU when they have no heir or a weak ruler? Hmmm...best leave them for now since they are being **ahem!** fertile with the Hapsburg dynasty.

So the plan is to continue to 1) press the French, taking their rich land; 2) steady wars in the New World to round out my colonies and get gold; 3) start taking land in eastern Africa; and 4) nibble at English islands.

Nobody answered you, so I will. Early in the 1600s Poland will likely, not guaranteed by any means, flip to a non elective Kingdom, but one of their options is a republic so you don't get a PU anyway, the other way, they can end up with a Hapsburg on the throne, and probably old because that's how the elective monarchies seem to work. You can declare a claim throne war, they won't likely have a child, but it's still a gamble. As to that, I normally am married to them myself and am typically so high up on the lists that determine who gets the PU that I get the PU when my family member there dies, and another country can oppose me.

Take a look at Atwix's thread about claiming thrones and everything to see whether it's worth fighting a no cb war, myself, I never really do as I am the first inheritor and the other party would have to fight me and the Commonwealth to steal the PU away.

 

[HydroAC]

Thanks for the reply!

In that campaign I ended up with Poland as a PU. Austria did get a von Hapsburg on the throne when it converted to a monarchy, and I dropped my alliance with them and kept the RM. As soon as I noticed there was no heir I claimed the throne.