Admin/dip tech need a rework(again) for mp

[Meow of Meowowiz]

Atm most of the time veteran players just tech to 5/7 in admin and skill ideas afterwards. As soon as tech drops they skill to 10 and stay there till tech 23 and just tech up everything instanlty later for around 80(or lower) adm/tech per macro.

Same goes for diplo only that you stop at tech 3 or 7(if you colonize). Sure they lose tons of ideas in that time but can develop like mad while still having 2 mil ideas + a crucial adm idea or expansion idea.

It's even worse now than before corruption got introduced because in most mp games there are many players who are scared to hell from corruption and wouldn't even think about goind the unbalanced research route even if it's the most effective way to play.

This only works because mil points are kinda everywhere and not really needed at all for anything else than ideas/tech. So it's no big deal to choose mil/adm/mil idea or mil/dip/mil in mp if you just always stay at around 9xx points and only skill mil ideas if you're ahead of time or nigh the cap.

As long as this systems stays mp games will be like 10/7(or3)/22 all the time. It's just way cheaper to pay the corruption than actually skill anything beyong idea group 3.

You can get tons of dev with your spare points which not a single idea group behind the first 3 can outdo while still be able to get instanlty to tech 23 adm and imperalism for no cost at all later on.

 

[Sfan]

What's your issue with that, actually? I mean, there are downsides to this, and this is only valuable in high pressure situations where you need every monarch point, but I don't see any special problem with it being an option. That's a strategy, not a no-brainer, you need to weight when to do it and when not to. That delays manufactories, for instance.

 

[Meow of Meowowiz]

You don't need manufacturies at all if you have an excess of 100dip/adm+ points per year. You just hoard that spare gold while still getting more and more dev through dev/conquering every year. Every other person do waste like 6xx+ points for teching while you just develope things while only to arrive at the same point in the mid/endgame. The only difference is they wasted tons of points while you did develop with them with no drawback at all.

In the end you get to their tech lvl in admin/dip for not even 10% what they payd for it. And because of the stack of mil ideas early on they even have an disadvantage because all those saved points went directly in your eco or was spent for conquering. Not even a day 1 adm cc reducing idea would saved you as much.

 

[bbqftw]

They could fix this issue quite easily (it has to do with an oversight in neighbor bonus system) but I ain't giving paradox any ideas.

Well, even if they addressed that, it would still be powerful. But not "tech 3->23" in one day powerful

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They could fix this issue quite easily (it has to do with an oversight in neighbor bonus system) but I ain't giving paradox any ideas.

Well, even if they addressed that, it would still be powerful. But not "tech 3->23" in one day powerful

Is it an oversight? I don't think it always worked this way. In old patches if you paused the game and teched 10x the costs would go up each time.

 

[tinculin]

If you’re a Castille player who does as you suggest & goes 10/7/20 in tech, how on Earth do you expect to handle a France player who’s maxed out their ideas and crushes you with his 4 maxed military trees running economic & other military bonus policies?

Even his navy will crap over you because your still in the stone age when it comes to naval ships...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you’re a Castille player who does as you suggest & goes 10/7/20 in tech, how on Earth do you expect to handle a France player who’s maxed out their ideas and crushes you with his 4 maxed military trees running economic & other military bonus policies?

Even his navy will crap over you because your still in the stone age when it comes to naval ships...

Can't have 4 military groups until extreme end game. At most they'll get 3 by imperialism times, though if they take two of economic/religious/innovative with the right military groups they can get some nasty policies going.

 

[tinculin]

Can't have 4 military groups until extreme end game. At most they'll get 3 by imperialism times, though if they take two of economic/religious/innovative with the right military groups they can get some nasty policies going.

You get my point though.

If you play in multiplayer like the OP suggests, you are defenseless and entirely at the mercy of your neighbours.

 

[Meow of Meowowiz]

Thats the funny thing about this way.. You can play early with def 2 and cancel it later(you only take def for early morale bounus and because you can kinda focus all game long on mil it's no big deal to waste those 800 points. ) after you get to tech 9 in mil You have a lot of time at this point.

Later on it's really a joke if you choosed the notorious mil groups.

 

[Sfan]

If you apply that to MP, that makes no sense at all anyway. A big part of passive score gain in MP is based on things like "quality of navy". You intentionally abandon any hope of making points out of dip rating by not teching dip. This approach only makes sense in SP where score is irrelevant.

 

[darth254]

what about inserting some sort of cooldown timer between advancements in tech?

 

[Meow of Meowowiz]

Except from dev mp streams I don't think I ever encountered a mp game where someone actualy looked for the score.

It's a nice thing if this game where competive in any way(with leaderboards) but tbh in all my years playing EUIV(since 2014) not a single person did pay any attention to it.

It's more like who do survive till the end and how much they grew trough that time. Most players don't care about the score comparsion because it's influenced by so many things which just make no sense at all.(Until recently I could kinda play passive all game long as Ternate/Tidore and still be ranked top 5 by score in a 15+ player game)

If you play with friends it kinda nice, but in a public game it just has no value at all.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You get my point though.

If you play in multiplayer like the OP suggests, you are defenseless and entirely at the mercy of your neighbours.

Well...only sort of. 10/3/max is probably running 2 MIL groups and an ADM group, likely one for policy. It's a farmer's gambit but not too extreme.

 

[tinculin]

Thats the funny thing about this way.. You can play early with def 2 and cancel it later(you only take def for early morale bounus and because you can kinda focus all game long on mil it's no big deal to waste those 800 points. ) after you get to tech 9 in mil You have a lot of time at this point.

Later on it's really a joke if you choosed the notorious mil groups.

Sorry, that’s avoiding my question.

If your colonising, according to your OP, you have only 2 other idea groups (pick 2).

On the other hand, your neighbour who has improved admin tech now has 3 military groups + economic + innovative or religious.

In addition to anything the coloniser has & assuming he picked 2 military groups (and didn’t go for extra colonist via expansion), he is helpless against an opponent who effectively now has the equivalent of at least 2 policies (5 disc & 20 inf combat ability) + an entire military group more than him.

Furthermore, the colonist player is severely at risk of having his troops trapped abroad if the player picks a more opportune time to attack because is still basic carracks.

I only see 1 winner in this scenario.

 

[tinculin]

Well...only sort of. 10/3/max is probably running 2 MIL groups and an ADM group, likely one for policy. It's a farmer's gambit but not too extreme.

Conversation is about coloniser going 10:7:23 & why it won’t work in MP, so at most 2 mil groups & exploration.

 

[bbqftw]

He can also just neighbor bonus on the idea unlocks. The double adm dip tank is pretty innovative though. But if we are going to.max imbalanced research for one tech why not two.

In any case since the idea group gaps in adm tech are so long you can reap 20% neighbor bonus on 4 techs so even some half assed 14/3/17 thing sounds viable.

The fact you said 4 military idea groups at 23 makes me think that OP has a better idea of high level play than you. I also liked how you stacked the deck with the most ridiculous favorable scenario to your argument (explo expansion? Really?)

 

[deathbypie]

They should at least update the neighbour bonus when teching up, not after waiting a day. Seems like a bug/exploit kind of thing.

 

[tinculin]

@bbqftw - for someone who’s so unforgiving about minor errors I suggest you read my post where I explicitly state I assume he’d not take explo + expansion.

In fact I give the colonising player a very favourable argument & if you can’t see this, then in the spirit your own words, I find it very questionable as to whether you know what you’re talking about.

Coloniser (not taking expansion), under the OPs statement has 2 spare I dea groups as the OP stated going adm 10. He alluded to defensive being a pick, though could sack this for a different group later.

The other player can simply match any 2 military groups he takes + 1 more along with economic & innovative (or religious), which will give him an easy and huge advantage in the field.

If you play through the permutations, you’ll see I was very lenient in the bonuses I’d stated. There are many scenarios where those bonuses are far in excess of what I listed.