Admin Cap should be removed, kind of.

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WhapXI

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I like Admin Cap, but it appears to be confusing a lot of people and could do with being "dynamically rebranded" to use the parlace of the present expansion.

There are a lot of people posting threads saying that admin cap is too restrictive, because they don't understand that it's a soft limit that you're expected to go over. A lot of people are seeing it as the new name for the core sector limit, or like CK2's demense limit, which exist(ed) to limit how much is under the player's direct control. In fact it's more of a rolling together of expansion penalties and the core sector limit, given the mechanics of the former but the trappings, techs, traditions, etc of the latter. I like this. Having fewer extraneous gameplay figures to worry about is always better.

I think that there has been a failure to make this abundantly clear to players though, and that's kind of on the devs.

So expansion penalties are a reasonably common strategy game phenomenon, intended to slow down snowballing. The best example I think I've seen in a game is Rome 2: Total War and its Imperium Level system. Though reaching the milestones of Imperium increases your empire-wide corruption and edges you closer to large-scale civil wars, it also unlocks the ability to field more armies and agents. Despite the penalty, it remains unequivocally clear to the player that this is the direction you're supposed to proceed in.

So my proposal is thus. Either abolish admin cap entirely, soften expansion penalties slightly so that this doesn't eff up the early game, and replace the +admin_cap techs/traditions/etc with -expansion_penalty% modifiers (like the opposite of what the Megacorp authority does to expansion penalties). OR, add in bonuses to passing certain empire sizes. Maybe something like +1 administrator job or +5% ruler output on your capital per 25 empire size.

Or just stick in a better tutorial/tooltip for it ingame, idk.

What do you guys think?
 

ArcticISAF

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Already has been talked about by devs to possibly rebrand to 'Admin efficiency' or such for clearer understanding. So yep definitely.

Realistically these penalties have been in the game since 1.0, and in even harsher numbers. Such as +2% tech cost per system, +5% per planet. I think some people miss out on that part.
 

WhapXI

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Admin efficiency

Makes sense. I think the absolute biggest misstep is calling it a cap. People hate going over caps. Myself included. Caps can be exceeded in an emergency but staying below them feels safe.

Love a nice cosy cap, me.
 

ArcticISAF

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Makes sense. I think the absolute biggest misstep is calling it a cap. People hate going over caps. Myself included. Caps can be exceeded in an emergency but staying below them feels safe.

Love a nice cosy cap, me.
Same here. I first took it to mean as something I shouldn't go over (such as naval capacity), before exploring that the penalties are really not that bad. And further reading that it's something that you would be expected to go over.
 

moyang

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Same here. I first took it to mean as something I shouldn't go over (such as naval capacity), before exploring that the penalties are really not that bad. And further reading that it's something that you would be expected to go over.
I did math and tradition penalty is way lower than pre-patch, and research penalty is lower than pre-patch but it might catch up to even point if you develop the planets.

The new thing is leader recruitment and upkeep cost but it's not that bad IMO.
 

RoverStorm

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Personally I prefer the new system to the old ones, even though it's more work to calculate exactly what each expansion will cost me, the penalties compared to even 2.0 is so much less crippling to tradition and tech that I can get away with ignoring it in about half my games.

As for leader upkee-pfffpfpfpf. Yeah like that's a problem. Basically you'd need a dedicated energy world every 50 systems or every 100 districts (minus 2 for each separate planet), except you can sell anything for energy, so any resource world and usually the systems output themselves can support your increased leader cost, with a little marketing.

By far the most crippling is the strategic resource campaign cost increase. Yeah, uh, that's expensive as hell. It's clearly to make up for the fact that expanding gives you access to all these resources and a small empire needs to buy them, but man does those costs get high fast.

I never mind the wording for things, but yeah I have a friend who sees the word "admin cap" and starts panicking, asking if he should stop expanding every few minutes. We definitely need a different phrase.

I also think that for the average player who doesn't want to go over his admin cap, districts and branch offices increasing empire size is misleading to them, because those don't FEEL like they should increase it. After all, they OWN the whole system and the WHOLE planet, why would adding some houses and signs reading "Miners dig here" increase empire size?
 

Tim_Ward

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I just think it just needs rebranded to something positive. Make the player feel they're negating penalties with their 'admin cap' rather than incurring them by going over it.

Administrative Efficiency sounds good to me, but also the tooltip should say something along the lines of "Empire Administrative Cost of X (Empire Size Y - Z Admin Efficiency)". Start with Empire size, subtract Admin Efficiency from it, and just completely exclude the notion of 'going over' things in the way it's presented.
 

RoverStorm

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Make the player feel they're negating penalties with their 'admin cap' rather than incurring them by going over it.
I think that's just needlessly confusing to players, and also how would you explain this to a megacorp, whose penalties are worse?

It really just needs a re-branding, and maybe a small description explaining that it's still OK to go above it. Like "Administrative Efficiency" versus "Administrative Difficulty". You are not going above a cap, you are just making it more difficult for your leaders, and so you must pay them a little more even though it's a net gain.
 

Dug

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I understand the confusion but I really do not think any changes are necessary. As it stands it only takes a few minutes of inspecting tooltips to get a good understanding what is what. In addition removing the administrative capacity would blow certain playstyles out of the water because that would mean you do not get penalties for overexpanding, which would narrow down Stellaris into spamming science/colony ships until you feel you're getting dizzy from the amounts of micro. I'd prefer if it didn't come to that, especially with the addition of MegaCorps who are not meant to be that big.
 

Kutyafolt

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This is admin cap very annoying. After 80 years you can't do nothing in game. I want refund my money in steam but can't.... This admin cap ruined the game. I have 2 planet few system and thats all.. I can't attack i can't do nothing because admin cap 90 and i can't make more admin cap....... If you want occupy the galaxy you need 2000 admin cap... but this is impossible.
 

Scratx

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This is admin cap very annoying. After 80 years you can't do nothing in game. I want refund my money in steam but can't.... This admin cap ruined the game. I have 2 planet few system and thats all.. I can't attack i can't do nothing because admin cap 90 and i can't make more admin cap....... If you want occupy the galaxy you need 2000 admin cap... but this is impossible.

It's not a true cap. It's a soft cap and it's been renamed to Empire Sprawl IIRC.

Just go over it, as long as you're taking good care of your economy it's fine.
 

Novacat

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My only issue is that, with the way it has been redone, tall play is a lot less rewarding since a vast majority of your penalty will come from districts instead of worlds and systems. Districts should probably have slightly lower penalty, and planets/systems slightly higher penalty, to try to re-establish the balance between tall and wide.
 

Wolfgang I

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The leader cost thing is the only aspect that brothers me and only because of how sectors work now.
I suspect that governors will go the way of the admiral after they introduced the command limit. You use a few in the early game but stop using then once you get a dozen fleets/sectors.
 

Mztr44

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I prefer it to the old system as well, but it feels pretty restrictive sometimes and unrewarding when you have to incorporate a crappy system with 2 energy and take a double system worth of hits just to get to better resources on the other side. Or even worse when that 2 energy system is generating 3 hyperlanes into your empire AND you expand past it making it isolated, thus generating a lot of negative cohesion. I think districts are worth too much as well, seems like they should maybe be worth .5 sprawl instead.

I think the big thing for me is that I feel no desire to war with another empire over systems, much less planets when I feel like i'm barely maintaining with what I already own because i'm already 50 some odd points over.
 

Felidae

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This is admin cap very annoying. After 80 years you can't do nothing in game. I want refund my money in steam but can't.... This admin cap ruined the game. I have 2 planet few system and thats all.. I can't attack i can't do nothing because admin cap 90 and i can't make more admin cap....... If you want occupy the galaxy you need 2000 admin cap... but this is impossible.
Really really honestly, ignore the 'cap'. You're supposed to go over it, and in fact can do so easily. The reason you're can't do anything is ironically because you tried to play within the 'cap'. For proof: In the game I just finished, I was at 2100 admin out of 135, but I was clearing 2k energy/month, could do repeatable techs in 30-50 months (depending on level), and had enough unity to crank out a Tradition (or Unity Ambition) in 80 months. Admittedly my mid-game was a bit draggy, but once I had a decent number of well-populated and well-developed planets, everything turned right around. I think with what I know now, I'll be able to avoid the mid-game slowdown next time.

In fact, in the beta (and now the latest patch) they renamed it to Empire Sprawl and Administrative Efficiency, because the word 'Cap' was confusing to many people.

You only need to pay attention to those numbers for certain playstyles.

Just give up on your current game, and next time just expand as fast as your influence allows.

*edit* Actual proof, same game, just a bit earlier:
09D61DFF5419D0CFD93095EE7971EC45DD9F0A51
 
Last edited:

Bad Bill

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First message here although I've been playing for a long time, I'll try not to break any rules. A little late to this, but sometimes reality interferes with gaming ...

My biggest gripe with the sprawl system is that you can't do anything about it. Part of the fun of Stellaris for me has always been running into some situation and looking for an ingenious (but legal, not cheats or exploits) way to deal with it, rather than brute force. No such way exists with sprawl, at least that I have been able to find. You just bulldoze through the durn thing. That's unsatisfying. (It is also something that I have seen developing with lots of Stellaris "enhancements" since about 1.8 or so.)

The suggestion of reducing the sprawl contribution from districts seems good to me. It provides a way of reducing the sprawl impact, at some cost, specifically the cost of taking a district-centric rather than building-centric approach to planet building in the early game. That way, the player has to make tradeoff decisions that are more complex than simply grow/don't-grow, which is never really a "decision" to make. Another idea is to have clerks contribute some small amount of mitigation to the capacity limit -- 0.25 capacity per clerk would probably suffice -- that would let the player get around the sprawl by conscious decision making. Every clerk slot made and used is a pop you don't get to use for something else, but YOU make the decision on whether to make that tradeoff.
 

Draconaes

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Admin cap used to be 0, it just wasn't listed. As in, you went over it with the very first colony, and there wasn't even a repeatable tech to mitigate it. Larger empires have always been less efficient than smaller empires in terms of unity and research. This isn't new.
 

Mavkiel

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I agree that they need to do something about it. It doesn't help that megacorps take double, which sort of reinforces the whole going over the cap is a very bad idea. (I do it anyways of course, but it took a couple games for me to realize that it was more of a suggestion then a rule :p
 

Twogs

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My only issue is that, with the way it has been redone, tall play is a lot less rewarding since a vast majority of your penalty will come from districts instead of worlds and systems. Districts should probably have slightly lower penalty, and planets/systems slightly higher penalty, to try to re-establish the balance between tall and wide.

Actually the way it is now you have something that actually defines tall play - "district efficiency".

That is: A ringworld can have at least 50 districts, a lot, but they are only basic districts.
A Ecumenopolis can have at best 33 districts (exactly one case) but these districts are much stronger than basic districts so you need less of them.

Thats what now defines the tall play.