Adjusting Relations for next patch

Jester · Sep 27, 2004

I think we are all in agreement that realtions need to be adjusted for all starting countries.
When EU2 first came out 0 relations was the standard....now it appears that same religion countries standard is +125.....therefore all our old relations entries are causing unnecessarry wars.
This has to be adjusted for same religion countries.

What standard should we use in modifying the existing relations ?

I would say perhaps take the existing positive relation entry and halve it, then add it to 125..if the value is 180 or higher drop it down to 175. For negative values just subtract them from 125.
FE
here is the old relations entry from Aragon.inc file followed by their modified values:
relation = { tag = POR value = 50 } 150
relation = { tag = CAS value = 50 } 150
relation = { tag = NAV value = 50 } 150
relation = { tag = GRA value = 80 } 165
relation = { tag = FEZ value = -200 } stays
relation = { tag = MOR value = -200 } stays
relation = { tag = ALD value = -200 } stays
relation = { tag = FRA value = 100 } 175
relation = { tag = KNI value = 100 } 175
relation = { tag = U17 value = 50 }150
relation = { tag = ENG value = -50 } 75

What do people think?

Late,
Jester

unmerged(12680) · Sep 27, 2004

Seems reasonable enough for me, though you might want to drop England a bit, there is hardly any danger of England attacking Aragon, but since the difference in FRA/ENG relations has changed from 150 to 100 there is a slightly greater chance that they will be drawn into the HYW on the English side, which I suppose is something we don't want.

Sikker · Sep 27, 2004

Well, the relations of the Russian minors (and their neighbours) should be adjusted too. But those changes has already been submitted by Doktarr. Just wanted to remind you of those again ...

Twoflower · Sep 27, 2004

I'd suggest the following relations for the German states, not on the base of your method of convertion, but on the base of what would be right IMHO. All relation entries that are currently in the files should be removed, so that these relations are at +125 then, and be replaced by just the following relations:
Austria:

Code:

relation = { tag = TYR value = 175 }
relation = { tag = PRM value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HUN value = 150 }
relation = { tag = BOH value = 150 }

Styria:

Code:

relation = { tag = TYR value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HAB value = 175 }
relation = { tag = WUR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = STR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = MIN value = 150 } #marriage with Cimburgis of Masovia

Tyrol:

Code:

relation = { tag = PRM value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HAB value = 175 }
relation = { tag = STR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = WUR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = PAP value = -50 } #Friedrich of Tyrol was excommunicated
relation = { tag = KOL value = 50 }
relation = { tag = MAI value = 50 }
relation = { tag = BRE value = 50 }
relation = { tag = HUN value = 50 }
relation = { tag = HEL value = -50 }
relation = { tag = BAY value = 0 }

Bohemia:

Code:

relation = { tag = HUN value = 175 }
relation = { tag = LUX value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HAB value = 150 }
relation = { tag = BAY value = 150 } #marriage with Sophia of Wittelsbach

Hungary:

Code:

relation = { tag = BOH value = 175 }
relation = { tag = LUX value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HAB value = 150 }
relation = { tag = SER value = 150 }
relation = { tag = TUR value = -100 }
relation = { tag = BOS value = -50 }
relation = { tag = VEN value = -100 }
relation = { tag = TYR value = 50 }

Bavaria:

Code:

relation = { tag = PFA value = 175 }
relation = { tag = LUX value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BOH value = 175 }
relation = { tag = TYR value = 0 }

Palatinate:

Code:

relation = { tag = BAY value = 175 }
relation = { tag = LUX value = 175 }

Luxembourg:

Code:

relation = { tag = BAY value = 175 }
relation = { tag = PFA value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HUN value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BOH value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BUR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = HAU value = -50 }

Brabant:

Code:

relation = { tag = BUR value = 175 }
relation = { tag = FRA value = 150 }
relation = { tag = KLE value = 150 }
relation = { tag = LUX value = -50 }

Lorraine:

Code:

relation = { tag = PRO value = 175 }
relation = { tag = FRA value = 150 }

Strassburg:

Code:

relation = { tag = TYR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = PRM value = 150 }
relation = { tag = WUR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = MAI value = 175 }
relation = { tag = KOL value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BRE value = 175 }
relation = { tag = PAP value = 175 }

Friesland:

Code:

relation = { tag = LUX value = 50 }
relation = { tag = HAU value = 50 }
relation = { tag = BUR value = 50 }

Cleves:

Code:

relation = { tag = BUR value = 150 }
relation = { tag = HAU value = 150 }
relation = { tag = KOL value = 50 }

Gelderland:

Code:

relation = { tag = MUN value = 175 }

Berg:

Code:

relation = { tag = GEL value = 175 }

Cologne:

Code:

relation = { tag = MAI value = 175 }
relation = { tag = STR value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BRE value = 175 }
relation = { tag = PAP value = 175 }
relation = { tag = KLE value = 50 }

Mainz:

Code:

relation = { tag = STR value = 175 }
relation = { tag = KOL value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BRE value = 175 }
relation = { tag = PAP value = 175 }
relation = { tag = HES value = 50 }

Hesse:

Code:

relation = { tag = U16 value = 150 }
relation = { tag = MAI value = 50 }

Meissen:

Code:

relation = { tag = HES value = 150 }

Saxony:

Code:

relation = { tag = BRA value = 150 }
relation = { tag = POM value = 150 }

Brandenburg:

Code:

relation = { tag = POM value = 150 }
relation = { tag = SAC value = 150 }
relation = { tag = STT value = 50 }

Pomerania:

Code:

relation = { tag = BRA value = 150 }
relation = { tag = SAC value = 150 }
relation = { tag = STT value = 175 }

Stettin:

Code:

relation = { tag = MEC value = 150 }
relation = { tag = POM value = 175 }
relation = { tag = BRA value = 50 }

Mecklenburg:

Code:

relation = { tag = STT value = 150 }

Holstein:

Code:

relation = { tag = OLD value = 150 }

Oldenburg:

Code:

relation = { tag = SHL value = 150 }
relation = { tag = BRE value = 50 }

Bremen:

Code:

relation = { tag = HAN value = 150 }
relation = { tag = MAI value = 175 }
relation = { tag = STR value = 175 }
relation = { tag = KOL value = 175 }
relation = { tag = PAP value = 175 }
relation = { tag = OLD value = 50 }

Hanover:

Code:

relation = { tag = BRE value = 150 }

Helvetia:

Code:

relation = { tag = TYR value = -50 }

Norrefeldt · Sep 27, 2004

It would be good if far away countries had lower relations even with the same religion. Otherwise we get bad alliances for AI (like OE and Uzbeks dragging them into wars with the Timurids with high BB as a result) and maptrading for humans. That's a lot of work though.

Jester · Sep 27, 2004

Twoflower said:
I'd suggest the following relations for the German states, not on the base of your method of convertion, but on the base of what would be right IMHO. All relation entries that are currently in the files should be removed, so that these relations are at +125 then, and be replaced by just the following relations:

That looks pretty good to me. As long as ther are no objections, I will include your entries in the next patch.

Late,
Jester

Jester · Oct 3, 2004

Ok the updating of relations is done for the next patch. The game starts out a lot more peacefull and appears to develop at least as well as the Vanilla in terms of countries eating each other up due to bad relations.

The only problems I have seen is Muscowy not attacking Novgorod now, so that Novgorod survies and Muscowy is wiped out instead. I will tweak the relations a bit to get it right.

Late,
Jester

Sikker · Oct 3, 2004

Jester said:
Ok the updating of relations is done for the next patch. The game starts out a lot more peacefull and appears to develop at least as well as the Vanilla in terms of countries eating each other up due to bad relations.

The only problems I have seen is Muscowy not attacking Novgorod now, so that Novgorod survies and Muscowy is wiped out instead. I will tweak the relations a bit to get it right.

Late,
Jester

That's odd. Moscow is not supposed to have relations to Novgorod altered. Do you know why Moscow stops attacking?

unmerged(17856) · Oct 3, 2004

ENG can't talk to BRI at gamestart, even with diplomats, and that was done for a reason. But the same was not done for BRI in relation to ENG. I think that should be done. Too often BRI is requesting an alliance with ENG, thus facilitating BRI destruction too early as she gets dragged into wars against FRA, DAU, even BUR sometimes and their allies.

Jester · Oct 4, 2004

Sikker said:
That's odd. Moscow is not supposed to have relations to Novgorod altered. Do you know why Moscow stops attacking?

Auctually the relations between Muscowy and Novgorod were adjusted as they are both orthodox countries and the base should be 125 not 0 anymore.

It looks like it might have just been a fluke as in two other Hands off Muscowy is taking out Novgorod.

Late,
Jester

Sikker · Oct 4, 2004

Jester said:
Auctually the relations between Muscowy and Novgorod were adjusted as they are both orthodox countries and the base should be 125 not 0 anymore.

It looks like it might have just been a fluke as in two other Hands off Muscowy is taking out Novgorod.

Late,
Jester

I am pretty sure this is not what was agreed upon in the Russia thread. Why are relations suddenly bumped?

EDIT: Actually THIS is what was agreed upon:
country = {
tag = NVG
diplomacy = {
relation = { tag = MOS value = -120 refusetrade = no }
relation = { tag = SWE value = 100 refusetrade = no }
relation = { tag = PSK value = -20 refusetrade = no }
relation = { tag = LIT value = -30 refusetrade = no }
relation = { tag = LIV value = 75 }
relation = { tag = NOR value = 100 refusetrade = no }
relation = { tag = TVE value = 100 refusetrade = no access = yes }
}

country = {
tag = MOS
diplomacy = {
relation = { tag = STE value = 120 refusetrade = no access = yes}
relation = { tag = PSK value = 120 refusetrade = no }
relation = { tag = NVG value = -120 refusetrade = no access = yes }
relation = { tag = RYA value = 100 refusetrade = no access = yes }
relation = { tag = TVE value = 100 refusetrade = no access = yes }
}

I think if you disgree with this you should take it up in the Russia thread.
Besides the argument that because both nations are orthodox they have to be the best of friends is really a rather poor one.

almoravid · Oct 4, 2004

Jester said:
Ok the updating of relations is done for the next patch. The game starts out a lot more peacefull and appears to develop at least as well as the Vanilla in terms of countries eating each other up due to bad relations.

The only problems I have seen is Muscowy not attacking Novgorod now, so that Novgorod survies and Muscowy is wiped out instead. I will tweak the relations a bit to get it right.

Late,
Jester

AHEM. Actually, Muscovy should not attack Novgorod until 1460s-1470s. I have no idea why we have to have Novgorod destroyed that early, and why it is so weak. It has repelled Sweden, Teutonic and Livonian orders as late as 1440s, so why kill them off by 1430? I think the most stable way would be to make them a friendly, vassalised, ally and distort the relations by event. The rest of Russia needs the doktarr setup!

Sikker · Oct 4, 2004

almoravid said:
AHEM. Actually, Muscovy should not attack Novgorod until 1460s-1470s. I have no idea why we have to have Novgorod destroyed that early, and why it is so weak. It has repelled Sweden, Teutonic and Livonian orders as late as 1440s, so why kill them off by 1430? I think the most stable way would be to make them a friendly, vassalised, ally and distort the relations by event. The rest of Russia needs the doktarr setup!

Take it to the Russia thread

Jester · Oct 4, 2004

Sikker said:
I am pretty sure this is not what was agreed upon in the Russia thread. Why are relations suddenly bumped?

I think if you disgree with this you should take it up in the Russia thread.
Besides the argument that because both nations are orthodox they have to be the best of friends is really a rather poor one.

I think you may have missed something. When EU2 originally came out the baseline for relations of the same religion was 0. Since then a patch changed it so that countries of the same religion have relations of +125. In accordance with this declaring wars and all other diploamtic things now rely upon this new baseline. Because the AGCEEP never corrected for this it was causing unneeded wars between countries based upon the old values in the 1419.inc files. This needs to be addressed and I consider it a bug. If some new relations have been figured out in the Russia thread then that is fine but they need to remember that the new baseline is +125 not 0 any longer.

Look at TwoFlowers's posts above for examples of restructured relations.

Late,
Jester

Sikker · Oct 5, 2004

I am somewhat baffled. Why should nations that hated eachother have relations of 125????? This makes no sense. Who has decided this, when and why?

Norrefeldt · Oct 5, 2004

Sikker said:
I am somewhat baffled. Why should nations that hated eachother have relations of 125????? This makes no sense. Who has decided this, when and why?

If there's arguement, then you are right. We should discuss it further in the right thread. This thread is a good place for relations that have been set with the old system and just need to be updated.

Sikker · Oct 5, 2004

Norrefeldt said:
If there's arguement, then you are right. We should discuss it further in the right thread. This thread is a good place for relations that have been set with the old system and just need to be updated.

AAHHH! [And comprehension reached the last of the stragglers]. Very well. Until further agreement has been reached I will suggest that the -120 relation between NOV and MOS is used.

Jester · Oct 5, 2004

Sikker said:
AAHHH! [And comprehension reached the last of the stragglers]. Very well. Until further agreement has been reached I will suggest that the -120 relation between NOV and MOS is used.

Sikker WE did not change the relations system. EU2 did, the nature of the realtionship system changed in a patch since the game was first released. Did Muscowy and Novgorod have -120 in the old system?, this would translate into +5 in the new system which is definitely low enough now for a contry to declare war on another. IF it needs to be lower than that is fine, but people need to understand that the whole relationship system was shifted in a paradox patch and we are now just correcting for it.

Late,
Jester

almoravid · Oct 9, 2004

When we change HRE relations, we should try to make sure that at least Albrecht and Friedrich get elected as emperors, as currently we have a weird Pommeranian dynasty.

Old Joe · Oct 9, 2004

oh oh, Moscowy +120 with golden horde, and that is after Dmitri Donskoi crash them at Kulikovo Battle, after he first time dared to hand over the title of Great Knyaz to Vasili I without sanction of hordes Khans, and after Moscowite Dutchie canonised Orthodox Church allover the lands, also without any permissions, when russians payd crakashit to mongols, and when hordes leaders alredy feared to made an open contest with russians, gaving them time to strenghten up, as what was happened, ..and you set it to +120, tell me its just for balance things

and please, made MOS-LIT relations to -75 at least

Adjusting Relations for next patch

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