Addressing the Oversized Elephant in the room

[Knightfall52]

It's true, but the same is true for any nations. It's not that we can't defeat them, it's that they are unbalanced.

Not true for BBB.

 

[gabadur]

Any discussions trying to tie pops to 'mechanics' are futile if they don't fix China first. Sorry bud.

We aren't talking about china. sorry, but just because china won't get fixed doesn't mean that east europe will. more people have been complaining about this than china recently.

 

[Clownie]

If not anything have changed, Lithuania is one of those nations that is very vulnerable to revolts, if they get their army destroyed and their war exhuastion out of control they may implode.

Im pretty sure Sweden did not have anything close to 5 milion people in 1444. What made Sweden such a powerful military power may just been the simple fact that Sweden had a huge copper supply and with copper comes artillery and with artillery comes victories on the battlefield.

Artillery wasn't all. Here's an interesting read on the topic.

The Swedes were trained to squeeze every little bit out of what little they had.

 

[solidprice]

Ok, i can see how Sweden was a lot stronger than I thought irl.

Artillery wasn't all. Here's an interesting read on the topic.

The Swedes were trained to squeeze every little bit out of what little they had.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

It's true, but the same is true for any nations. It's not that we can't defeat them, it's that they are unbalanced.

The reason why I don't have issue with current Lithuania is that in some games they do all right, but in many other games they are a paper tiger which loses to Russians (or even to Golden Horde). That seems about right to me. Lithuania is hard country to balance, because historically it was one of the strongest countries in the region during the early game, but then it started to decline and at the end of the game it didn't exist.

However I'm certain that we will see some development tweaks here and there (not just in Lithuania) as the Devs are constantly seeking the balance which they think is the best.

 

[kitemasaki]

We aren't talking about china. sorry, but just because china won't get fixed doesn't mean that east europe will. more people have been complaining about this than china recently.

By 'more' people you mean the couple of forum posters with an agenda? Oh right...I forgot about the statistics behind vague statements.

 

[Johan]

Lithuania is extremely fragile, so we wont nerf it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The reason why I don't have issue with current Lithuania is that in some games they do all right, but in many other games they are a paper tiger which loses to Russians (or even to Golden Horde). Lithuania is hard country to balance, because historically it was one of the strongest countries in the region during the early game, but then it started to decline and at the end of the game it didn't exist.

However I'm certain that we will see some development tweaks here and there (not just in Lithuania) as the Devs are constantly seeking the balance which they think is the best.

It was never over twice as strong as Poland or nearly twice as strong as Muscovy in this time period.

Lithuania as the 3rd richest nation behind Ming and Timurids is something of a joke :/. The patch switching to development overdid it, giving PLC lucky status was enough in the 1.9-1.11 era.

 

[Haldan]

Maybe we'll have some light shed on the situation in todays dev diary about the Estates.

 

[Amosblanco]

Lithuania is extremely fragile, so we wont nerf it.

Lithuania is fragile???
Come on! First of all, Lithuania should be fragile, or why he bothered to ally and be under PU of Poland historically??? --- prevented himself from eaten by Moscovy and Tartars...
So many times in the game when Lithuania is independent, I saw her expanded towards Caspian Sea, crushing those hordes, and occupied Moscow with the help of Novgorod.
Lithuania has a very strong NI, with +4 tolerance towards heretics, so she has no problem dealing with those Orthodox heretics, and Belarusian and Ruthenian are accepted culture in Lithuania, so she has no problem dealing with those minorities, unless the peasant war fires....
So in reality Lithuania is not fragile at all, and is the strongest nation in the Eastern Europe over Sweden, Moscovy (Or God, buff Moscovy please, I saw Novgorod formed Russia more often than Moscovy did in the current patch) and Poland.

Nerf Lithuania, Nerf Poland, death to PLC, give Moscovy some love!

In term of how to make Lithuania fragile. I think instead of nerfing province values (yeah I agree Lithuania's provinces are too rich and should be nerfed, but on the other hand PDX shold also add more provinces in this area deadly, so as the Russian region), the more proper way is to remove +4 tolerance from its tradition, or move it after, or nerf it, +2 may be a proper value.

 

[Haldan]

If Poland/Lithuania collapse, they never recover and Muscovy and TO will buttfuck them royally.
If the PU forms and stays for over 10 years, they'll roflstomp Europe, conquer Constantinople and anything they gain the "Wants your provinces" modifier against.

 

[Denkt]

Lithuania is fragile like Johan said. If it can't control its war exhuastion and its army gone it have a tendency to break apart.

 

[FleetingRain]

Unless you magically put some pagans there and give missions to its neighbours, I can't see how Lithuania of all nations is "fragile".

 

[Phibs]

Unless you magically put some pagans there and give missions to its neighbours, I can't see how Lithuania of all nations is "fragile".

This. I haven't seen Lithuania fail in ages. Muscovy, yes. Poland, sure. Lithuania is a frikkin oak imo.

 

[happymix91]

Fragile.. I've never felt that.. Oh Lithuania in EU2 was surely fragile, and it seemed like balloon, but not now..

 

[JagLover]

Well, it should be nowhere near Russia at least. Sweden on the other hand is and was not a densely populated area, either. Sweden does have mercenary ideas for a reason, as lacking in manpower as it is.
The core problem is true, however, Lithuania has a ridiculously high basetax considering the area was not densely settled/partly wilderness.

The key problem here is the games static population model.

By game end the Ukrainian lands will be some of the richest and most productive in the Russian Empire.

 

[Me_]

Lithuania is fragile like Johan said. If it can't control its war exhuastion and its army gone it have a tendency to break apart.

That's true of any country except the lucky ones.

 

[Denkt]

That's true of any country except the lucky ones.

But Lithuania is one of the countries it is really true for, try it yourself. That ai countries don't exploit this weakness may be a problem aswell.

 

[happymix91]

Well PLC, especially Lithuania is too powerful to be fallen under hard time.

 

[Me_]

But Lithuania is one of the countries it is really true for, try it yourself. That ai countries don't exploit this weakness may be a problem aswell.

I can only repeat myself. There is nothing unique about Lithuania's position with the exception of the fact that is has a gargantuan stability boost in the form of +4 heretic tolerance. It's an nearly-indestructible iron giant that only ever fails if it gets under Poland and Poland does something stupid, dragging Lithuania with itself. If Lithuania could form Russia, 75% of the time that Russia would form, it would be from Lithuania.