Additional Canals

[Jeck]

The two canals which could be build in Vicky 1 not only added to the flavour of the game but also had a strategic impact on the gameplay. So it might be nice to include additional canals either built or considered during the Vicky timeframe.

Since the map seems to be almost done, this might be a little to late, but i'd like to see the following canals: The corinthian canal (1881-1893) built to shorten the time needed to travel from the ionian sea to the aegean sea and providing an additional line of defense for the greek state in case of ottoman invasion by separating the peloponnesian peninsula from the mainland;
The kiel canal (aka Nord-Ostsee-Kanal 1887-1895) which cuts through the german part of the jutland peninsula and links north and baltic sea. This canal was built to shorten travel time, allowing merchant ships to avoid storm-prone parts of the north sea and to allow the kriegsmarine to transfer their ships from the north sea to the baltic sea and vice versa in case of war without fear of danish (or swedish) coastal batteries.

Besides this historical canals two additional canals should be considered: The kra canal that was supposed to cut through the upper part of the malayan peninsula to shorten the travel time between the indian ocean and the south chinese sea while avoiding the pirate infested regions around the strait of malacca at the same time. The thai government tried to built this canal since the late 18th century but in the end caved into british pressure who wanted to preserve the privileged situation of the straits settlement.
Another possible canal (actually two canals) would be the nicaragua canal that would have linked lake nicaragua with the atlantic with an additional short canal completing the connection to the pacific. This canal was considered an alternative for the panama canal. Maybe some event chain could be implemented where once the panama canal is built its no longer possible to built the nicaragua canal and vice versa. So in some games we would have the historical panama canal while in others the canal would be built in nicaragua.

 

[Francis II]

The Isthmus of Tehuantepec was also considered for a canal before Panama was built.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Kiel absolutely. Corinth less so, unless some way can be found to simulate limited capacity. There is no way you could fit a large navy through Corinth in less time than it would have taken to go round the long way. It's possible the seas west and east of the Peloponnese will be adjacent anyway.

The Kra canal plan is fascinating, and I had never heard of it before. Thanks.

 

[unmerged(180044)]

What about the Bolomor Canal (White sea-Baltic)??? It was so low-tech that if there is an option for forced prisoner labor, it would have been possible to build it during this Era.

 

[Jeck]

@ Earl Uhtred: You're welcome
@jeff1308: I wasn't sure if the belomorsk canal was built in the timeframe of vicky/ricky but if it was, then sure, that would be another possible canal to include in vicky2

 

[unmerged(180044)]

@Jeck, in fact it wasn't; it was build during WWII, but technologically speaking it could have been built before the timeframe since not a single piece of advanced technology was used in building it (just permanently had 100 000 prisoners, and a lot of ropes, picks and shovels).

 

[Earl Uhtred]

With a 4m minimum depth it's useless to all but barges... forget large warships. A classic monument to communist retardry.

 

[Kaiserschmarrn]

With a 4m minimum depth it's useless to all but barges... forget large warships. A classic monument to communist retardry.

But they could transport the warships by barge?

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

But they could transport the warships by barge?

Not in one piece, at least. The barges would just hit the bottom.

I would like to see a little more depth with canals (and exploration for that matter) in terms of decisions. It would be nice to see alternative locations etc. But a few questions have to be asked about whether to include new canals, such as whether they would make any difference to gameplay. Corinth wouldn't make much difference except as a defensive line, for example. Kiel would only significantly help in game if the straights could be blocked. There also need to be some obvious tweaks to province travel times to account for real distances, so that Suez actually has a point for example.

 

[truth is life]

With a 4m minimum depth it's useless to all but barges... forget large warships. A classic monument to communist retardry.

Hm? How so? Surely even barges are useful in intra-national commerce...I'm reminded of the Intracoastal Waterway along the US Atlantic and Gulf coasts, which has similar or worse limitations, but is still quite economically valuable.

 

[unmerged(148761)]

The kiel canal (aka Nord-Ostsee-Kanal 1887-1895) which cuts through the german part of the jutland peninsula and links north and baltic sea. This canal was built to shorten travel time, allowing merchant ships to avoid storm-prone parts of the north sea and to allow the kriegsmarine to transfer their ships from the north sea to the baltic sea and vice versa in case of war without fear of danish (or swedish) coastal batteries.

Naval transit times are always a little silly in Paradox games so I would be surprised to see these small canals have much of an effect. IIRC in Vicky1 it was faster to sail around Africa from Europe than to take the Suez canal. Also Kiel isn't in HOI3, so I would be doubly surprised to see it in Vicky, where it would be less strategically important.

And technically speaking the term Kriegsmarine was only used during the third reich. In the Vicky timeframe the German navy was called Kaiserliche Marine.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Hm? How so? Surely even barges are useful in intra-national commerce...I'm reminded of the Intracoastal Waterway along the US Atlantic and Gulf coasts, which has similar or worse limitations, but is still quite economically valuable.

Sure, but the only purpose canals serve on map in Vic 1 is for transit of warships. Perhaps 2 will change this, but we can only discuss what we've got...

 

[Calantyr]

I'd like to see canals generate income (via tolls) for whoever owns the provinces. The Suez generated a lot of money for the British Empire.

 

[unmerged(180044)]

On a more serious note, if canals have any economic use, the Rideau canal (between Ottawa and Kingston Canada) could be interesting to have (it was actually one of the reasons why the city of Ottawa became the national capital in 1857 (actually hand picked by... Victoria)).

 

[Earl Uhtred]

More serious note?

If we're talking about canals dug for commercial purposes I can name perhaps a hundred off the top of my head. But in Vic as it stands their only purpose is military.

If we're going to have canals with tolls, I suppose it could appear in province modifiers where a province with a river is adjacent to another province with another river... but not appearing on map and with no military application.

 

[Testy]

The White Sea – Baltic Canal was opened in 1933, so it's barely within the timeframe.

 

[lizardo]

If you look up the history of canals you find that there was a period where it was as much an industry fad as building railroads. It was just as important for transportation as rail and even today more economically efficient for moving mass amounts of goods.

The first canal on the Suez was built 1000 years ago.

The Panama Canal even spawned a ship 'type', the Panamax. That is the largest size vessel that will fit through the locks.

There are probably several reasonable places on the map for canals.

In the game it's a script. It really should be a type of build like a factory or rgo that requires people/money, materials and time to do.

Which is the other thing, building anything should require paying people to do it and materials. It should suck up manpower.

The solution I think is to have 'construction' companies that contain employees and which can be assigned to the task of building what ever needs build. Run out of people, you have a natural limitation on what you can build.

Construction companies should be able to recruit world wide (as that's what they did).

Beyond the materials needed, canal/rgo/factory/unit construction themselves the construction company should consume materials.

 

[wilcoxchar]

In the game it's a script. It really should be a type of build like a factory or rgo that requires people/money, materials and time to do.

And if it's a building, how do you regulate it so that dreadnoughts and battleships can't travel everywhere? You would have to make some restriction on what provinces it could be built in, and if you're making an arbitrary restriction then why have it as a province building at all?

Which is the other thing, building anything should require paying people to do it and materials. It should suck up manpower.

I've always thought the cash requirement that comes with building factories and railroads was paying for the labor. And why should it suck up manpower when manpower only represents soldier POPs?

 

[von Sachsen]

In relation to the above, it might be good to have canals buildable in any province with water access. For example, Germany wants to connect these two rivers. So it starts by building a "canal network" in the beginning and ending provinces and build into each other, or just one way if time is not an issue. But only provinces that have access to a river, the ocean or another porvince with canals can build them. Possibly, if the canals do not connect to anything thier impact would be negligable, though they could help the local economy. Also, only provinces with access to to different seas, such as Panama or Kiel, would be able to build canals that can carry navies through.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Also, only provinces with access to to different seas, such as Panama or Kiel, would be able to build canals that can carry navies through.

Hmmm, that restriction might work, if the seazones aren't already adjacent of course. Looking at the Vicky 1 map, the only unrealistic things I see with that are a possible canal through Tornio and the inability to completely finish the Baltic-White Sea canal. And those can be easily fixed with a few province changes.