Adding Rome or Venice for instant westernization?

[Necurok]

How about adding adding Rome and/or Venice for the decision to instant westernize?

Along with Vienna, Danzig or Praque.

I was playing with adding Madrid(Barcelona) Paris and London also but they are a bit far away from the east

But i think Rome and Venice would be still plausible

 

[Don_Munda]

And what logic could you then apply whereby an Aq Qoyunlu who conquered through the Ottomans into Vienna, or the mostly-settled Kazan holding Danzig (even forming Russia) can't do exactly the same thing, considering they hold *identical* land with *identical* rivals and even in some cases having *identical* technology?

Oh right, it's not possible for you to do that, because there is no logical reason that a different tag with identical land/population/tech/situation couldn't do the same thing.

Oh, I'm all in favor of any tag having the option; there's nothing magical about the Ottomans or Poland or Russia in that respect. My post was solely intended to address those who were arguing against the viability of Rome or London or other major cities as potential triggers for the decision. Any country who fulfills the spirit behind the decision as far as being heavily Western oriented should have access to the Westernization as far as I'm concerned.

Edit: Pulled the response out of the quote.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The sheer luck they had going for them is something that cant be replicated.

Nations had excellent and awful luck through history, Ottomans probably weren't the "luckiest" overall, but that's hard to measure anyway. The assertion that you can't replicate it in-game with literally any nation in the world, however, is disingenuous. People can do 1-tag WC in the game, by design, yet you can't replicate Ottoman history/luck?

To claim someone could do the same is like claiming poland could take on the third reich and after launch an identical invasion of france in WW2.

In the scenario I described above (which you are routinely and very notably ignoring outright), I detailed scenarios where this had already effectively happened (IE Kazan already holds Danzig, or Aq Qoyunlu holds Vienna). It's not a matter of whether they can do it. In that world, it's already happened. They're larger and luckier than our history's Ottomans, accomplishing something that this world's Ottomans didn't do. You are repeatedly choosing to ignore that. Why?

How would Aq Qoyunlu possibly get into europe to begin with or keep it for that matter?

100% irrelevant. If you're addressing my posts address them. The game allows it. The player has done it already, owning all of the Balkans, Egypt, and half the PLC along with Vienna. Europe hasn't stopped them, and their unrest/separatism is non-existent in Vienna.

Why can't they "western focus"? You're trying to tell me it's impossible, which is a non-sequitur, irrelevant red herring. Obviously, in that world they've done it. Tell me why, given that scenario, they can't do what the Ottomans can do in that scenario. While you're at it, feel free to explain why Circassia and Theodoro can similarly hold that territory and freebiewesternize, but not Aq Qoyunlu or Shirvan, holding the same territory with the same accomplishments.

I posit the reason you are focusing on the impossibility of an already-done task is that you can't and/or don't want to try to address the point I made, that a nation that *has*, in fact, *already* out-done the Ottomans can't take the decision and that there is no rational basis whereby the "western focus" decision exists at all that they can't do so.

Hindsight bias is not a legitimate answer, and neither is denying the possibility of something you can obviously do in the game. What is the answer?

 

[zamieo]

I disagree about Venice, but I think Rome being a westernization target makes sense.

 

[Jomini]

TMIT: Pdox has decided that there is some element of meta-culture going on in game that states cannot escape. This has some basis in fact, a lot of the states in the lower technology groups had vastly more powerful established interests who would have (and did) oppose the adoption of more free wheeling changes that overcame traditional ways of doing things. Some of this was tied to religion (e.g. the effective Islamic bans on printing), some due to cultural practices (e.g. caste type inheritance of trades that persisted even in Muslim areas of India), some due to powerful factions (e.g. the reluctance of many horse empires to embrace cannons & infantry), and some due to governmental structure (e.g. Mandate of Heaven and the like).

I think the better solution is to allow a state to have "Muslim focus" where they must first take Constantinople and Mecca, possibly be Muslim, and then they can transition to Muslim tech. I would then open up Western focus to Muslim nations (though maybe require them to hold 2 of the 3 cities to show that they are committed and able to influence Western Europe). I'd also have a process like Westernization, perhaps not requiring the big lag in tech, so that states can get to Muslim tech that way.

In this era the real question when it came to science and technology is not so much what land you hold, as it is who is willing to travel to your court, be mutually respected, and and then teach your men/heirs the latest things about technology. Russia and the OE are about as far as men of the first rank would be willing to travel, taking Danzig and the like is necessary (i.e. a respectable showing that your country influences world affairs, and not just the "backwater" places) but not sufficient. Natural scientists of this era are not going to ride with a Khagan even if he has a permanent court where he spends 50% of his time.

Gameplay wise, what we really, really want to avoid is being able to snipe a province, Westernize, and then go on mass expansion spree in Asia. Breaking it up so there is a process stops that but has a pretty historical path for the people who actually changed technology to see the new powerful Kazan as something other than a barbarian invasion and allow Kazan to compete for statesment and the like of the first rate.

 

[Jomini]

I disagree about Venice, but I think Rome being a westernization target makes sense.

If by "makes sense" you mean is perhaps the easiest territory to take and hold in the game, one which Wiz explicitly rejected on gameplay grounds, and had virtually no real concrete strategic utility associated with it ... sure.

But for the rest of us, no Rome makes no sense in this era as the game is currently implemented.

 

[Necurok]

Perhaps Milan would be a better choice then Rome

Milan was an important and powerful city in this period.

But with the just released Development Diary it would perhaps make more sense to hold a specific "region" (Defined as 3-6 provinces) to westernize

So you need the Danzig Region, Bohemian Region, Austrian Region, Northern Italy Region, London Region, Cosmpopolitan/French Region

 

[TheMeInTeam]

TMIT: Pdox has decided that there is some element of meta-culture going on in game that states cannot escape

I get the concept, but it doesn't really apply in an abstraction whereby the game is going to allow Bahmanis to own a clear shot through Greece. Whatever Bahmanis was in our history, it wouldn't resemble anything near that if we're talking owning territory clean into Europe. At that point, whatever "meta-culture' we're talking about is actually that of a large number of nations and if such a nation is holding together whatsoever, it's silly to still think of something controlling Persia/Anatolia/Greece/Vienna/Egypt as "Indian" meta-culture in the same capacity as, say, Bengal.

In other words, this limitation is incongruous with both the mechanic decision itself and with what the game allows the player to do otherwise.

Gameplay wise, what we really, really want to avoid is being able to snipe a province, Westernize, and then go on mass expansion spree in Asia. Breaking it up so there is a process stops that but has a pretty historical path for the people who actually changed technology to see the new powerful Kazan as something other than a barbarian invasion and allow Kazan to compete for statesment and the like of the first rate.

Hey, if they want to add "at least x development in Europe" that could work. I get that a freebie would work against the design.

 

[GiftGruen]

100 development worth of provinces with Western cores and/or in Middle/Western Europe, perhaps?