Adding realism by slicing your own territories for your princes.

[Hobotango]

One thing I find amazing is how Kings/Emperors would slice their kingdom in equal parts for their sons.

They would meet with their sons, and talk about who gets what. Although in the game, you dont really get a choice. I currently have 4 sons in my kingdom ( Started as West Francia) I own East Francia as well, by now and I could create many titular kingdoms. I decided to give one to my son, but unfortunately, the Kingdom of Franconia is separated in my different places, making it a little absurd.

In reality, the King would have draw lines on a map, making one kingdom that is all together and then gave it to his son. He wouldnt have chosen many different counties from all over the kingdom. Or am I wrong ?

I wish the next DLC would focus on how you give lands to your Princes. A bit like we saw in Hearts of Iron III, we could now draw on the map to make elaborate operations. This time, allow us to draw on the map to create titles ( such as Kingdoms or Duchies) so that, when we have 4 sons, and want to give them Kingdoms, we can simply slice the whole Empire into four equal part and gave it to them, as it would happen historically.

Give us more options on how we create our Kingdoms, duchies, and titles.

Thanks.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Great idea!!

We could designate a titular kingdom and assign what vassals would fall under said kingdom. I'll do some thinking on this tomorrow when im a bit more rested.

 

[Hobotango]

God in Heaven, please be a CK2 developer.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Aw... Do i really look like a developer? Unfortunately I'm just a silly poster, but I'll still share with you my ideas.

Ok:
- Vassals under gavelkind empire cannot form kingdoms.

- Gavelkind/elective gavelkind empires are dissolved at ruler's death.

- All your sons will have a certain ambition to how much of your realm they should inherit. You will draw the land designated for each son, who upon succession will get a titular title named and the CoA after the capital county assigned to it.

- this titular kingdom prevents creation of other kingdoms, but not empires.

- All the heirs will be claimants to the former empire, just like Karl and Karloman.

- you should be expected to take care of your daughters too, especially if they don't stand to inherit nothing. An amount of wealth should be put aside for your daughters' marriage.

- your daughters should be important! More than just meat for alliances or Zoroastrians! Give them dowry, estates for them to fall back in case of divorce, death if husband, let's have a few events to welcome your daughter back home should something terrible have happened.

- really abuse that "order to take vows" button, which ties in the monasteries dlc


Mechanics for non gavelkind empires should involve an interregnum which others have discussed better thsn me.

Just a few overnight thoughts.

 

[Hobotango]

wow I love it all. especially your third point, sons wanting more than others. It would add such a human touch to having children, and cause for war ( in the future as they grow ). I know its already represented in game a little bit but expanding upon that would be great. There could be a series of events, leading to making meetings, preferring one son over the others, etc etc.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Thanks

The unity of a realm under Gavelkind is "easily managed" by having that 1 title above all others. For example, if Charlemagne manages to form Francia, you can expect a huge blue blob for the next 700 years of the campaign, even if the emperor stays relatively weak.

At the game start we have Karl and Karloman holding kingdoms yet neither of then holds Francia.
I could be wrong, though i believe Charlemagne HRE was dissolved at succession right?

I think that is how gavelkind should work. The top tier title is forfeit at succession, with all claimants holding onto the kingdoms/duchies of the realm. As claimants they should have an easier time reforming the title.

Usually the only way to go through this would be through war.. But how about mustering support from the non claimants lords?
I have not thought to much how this could go, but i feel that all claimants willing to step up to the challenge could face the challenges set for them by the lords.

These challenges, dealt through events (depending on task) will vary from honourable challenges between the claimants, to council requests such as:

(let's say there are three brothers)

- The lords of the land have asked the 3 noble Hobotango brothers to lead each a hunting party to prove their capabilites as leaders, hunters, survivors.

- the lords of the land have decided that the neighbouring Lord Bafford, duke of Carottenberg, could be humiliated by making him pay an annual tribute. Are you up to the task young Hobotango?

- the lords of the realm will accept your rule, if you were to marry Gertrude, daughter your departed father's chancellor.

These are just some examples. After a brief period the lords MIGHT decide to proclaim their new king/emperor or find no worthy successor, meaning if you intend to restore the empire/kingdom you will have to do it the old fadhioned way.


Tribal gavelkind already deals with this through the possibility of murdering your kin in a duel.

This would be a suggestion for the interregnum (or possible disintegration) of a feudal gavelkind realm.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Longobard reconstruction in italy.


Your mission is to lead a successful hunt, bring back much game, much glory, and hopefully all hunters!!

 

[Sledjer]

It's an interesting idea, but there would definitely have to be limits to prevent you from giving single counties to anyone not your heir.

 

[Fitzjacob]

A bit like we saw in Hearts of Iron III, we could now draw on the map to make elaborate operations.

I would like this possibility for the granting of provinces as a Nomad.
---
Kaidu has been brought before Kublai after more than 30 years of civil war.

"At last! The treacherous Ögedei clan shall be absorbed and your lands will be distributed between the loyal clans."
"But Kublai, we've got more than 50 provinces under our control and you must hand them out one at the time!"
"Hmm, err, well, I'm sure you've learnt your lesson. But don't let it happen again!"

Kaidu of the Mongol Revolt has declared war on Kublai of the Mongol Empire.

 

[Almaron]

In reality, the King would have draw lines on a map, making one kingdom that is all together and then gave it to his son. He wouldnt have chosen many different counties from all over the kingdom. Or am I wrong ?

Yes and no...I mean, sometimes that would happen (Merovingian France was infamous for this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Division_of_Gaul_-_587.jpg ), but I think most of the time it happens in CKII it's the result of nobles holding lands across the realm and changing allegiances because the game can't really represent a single ruler having multiple allegiances, like the Dukes of Normandy or Burgundy...and I think that's going to be an issue regardless of whether we could draw up the borders in advance or not...

 

[Woifee]

There is no way in game for vassals be a vassal of different lords. If you begin to draw lines for split after inheritance you just might take away major parts of vassal lands. You break the vassal contract by removing their titles without doing anything wrong.

You may think this is fun as an independent liege lord, but it will truly suck if this happens to you as a vassal.

Edit:typo

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

You know, just having some 'administrative' titles for your kids would be nifty enough. You could give a 'titular' duchy/kingdom title to a kid to oversee some area of your realm (must be somewhere outside your own de jure kingdom you rule), but they wouldn't have any kind of land; it's just a new layer of governance. This would provide them with Prestige and events to become better future leaders (or create rivals for drama). Said titular titles could NEVER have any land under them (they work more or less like landless viceroys).
Your vassals would prefer to vote on people that went through that than your other sons/daughters that haven't.

 

[Almaron]

Some of the honorary titles could be expanded for this; Despot was a title used by the Byzantines initially to denote an heir, but by the end it was being given to younger sons of Emperors as a high-ranking courtly title and little else, while the heirs apparent would be crowned as Co-Emperors (there's another thread for that already here; the idea being it could be something that can only be granted to and/or held by whoever's heir, and its main role is to offset the short reign penalty)...both would work with what you're proposing.

 

[Tryvenyal]

There should be a "support heir" mechanism under Gavelkind and maybe Primogeniture Empires. Unless the primary heir amass enough support, the empire is forfeit upon succession.

Technically:
At empire tier, direct vassal kings and dukes gets a vote(Kings 3 and Dukes 2). Maybe a religious head should have some say as well(5 if vassal, 10 if independent?)?
Only children of the emperor is eligable. If primary heir is not the most supported upon succession, the empire shatters.
If however a single secondary heir is supported at 75% or more, he/she is now the primary heir and Empire title remains if this is still true upon succession.
Emperor has no vote for himself but should have a expensive tool to get a vassal to vote for a primary heir
If the heir is not an offspring of the emperor, he leaves a shattered realm. Though the heir must be guarantied a kingdom - title(Create one if needed!).
EDIT: Secondary heirs are ordered after support ONLY if primary heir is NOT the law- encouraged!!

The "normal" should be that shatter is avoided. The default should be to support the law- encouraged succession. An adult oldest son should be extremely bad to not be supported, or have alot better younger brothers. A female or worse a child heir should and the empire should face issues! Under Agnatic Cognatic, for example an daughter with non-adult brothers, Lords should have an option to not support any child of the emperor... Not voting for any heir is voting for a shattered realm. We can continue discussing this if someone likes it

Exacly what would happen after a Inheritance- Shatter is not entirely clear. I think something like what happens at Elective Gavelkind, where kingdom- titles are created for secondary heirs, and that this should be considered when the game calculates a shatter. Lets continue this discussion if you like this general idea

After all, a shattered empire should not be in the most vassals interest.

Alas, this could make the gavelkind Christians even weaker. They already tend to loose christian heartland to Muslims and others.

But I have ideas to weaken/unstabilize them too Here is some ideas that is not touching any more succession laws

Muslims

Non favoured adult sons should more aggressively demand landed titles. They should "gang up" against the favoured heir, taking other vassals to help, which could mean a landed favoured heir loses his land or part of it to a brother in a war. Adult sons should commonly ask for land and if denied, they should leave fathers court and seek fortune elsewhere, rivalizing father and favoured brother. This would make them harder to control and controlling unfavoured sons is the key to Muslim success.

Byzantium/ non-gavelkind Empires in general

Disallow non- de jure kingdom titles to be created and handed out as viceroyalty
Involve the church more in politics. For example, make a vassal church- head demand applicable top-title non-dejure vassals to be transferred under him(Especially potentially making a King tier head powerful).
Allow and slightly encourage vassal lords of an empire to switch culture if inside the culture group to the culture of it´s capital.

Elective Gavelkind realms

Create duchies(if toptier) the same way Kingdoms are created upon succession.
Allow landed adult kin with claim to replace an under aged secondary heir in succession chain. Make it a plot...

Nomads
Create a law chains - 3 steps that´s always reset after succession

• Lowest step "No realm stability" - The toptitle is shattered and each of the Khans are "promoted" to Khagans of their own
• Middle step - As is
• Top step - heir can be under aged and other Khans can not inherit toptitle "peacefully"