Add Religious Advisors who provide Papal/Patriarch Authority

[Nuclear Elvis]

Paradox Developers/players,
For Catholic and Orthodox nations (and arguably, any other religion that has a metric for church influence), we should be able to pay for Advisors to provide Papal or Patriarch Authority.

- For Catholic nations, only Papal Authority Advisors would be offered, and I think they would be in the Diplomatic category (unless more balanced for Admin).
- For Orthodox nations, only Patriarch Authority Advisors would be offered in the random pool, arguably in Diplomatic category.
- As a "Dynamic" option, potentially game-changing but worth considering, these Advisors could be offered in ANY of the categories, Admin/Diplo/Military (perfect world, we would have this and many other options in pre-game Options build selector switches for "Dynamic Advisors" to appear across all Power lanes). This is a tangential issue but I'd love to see some "utilitarian" Advisors that could spawn randomly for any of the 3x Power branches, as you may want to use your Military points for this Religious Advisor (and considering Religious Wars, doesn't break the Theme).

Given that you're paying a high Ducat amount for these Advisors, and not as Cardinals, and in perspective of Orthodox Icons, I think the rate could be as high as +1 Papal/Patriarch influence per year. This is one case where I wish the higher/top tier Advisor would actually come with more of a buff, as it could be argued that Orthodox should only be +.5 Patriarch Authority per year, but a top-tier (highest cost) Advisor could be +1/year.

From a thematic standpoint, I don't understand why paid Religious Advisors were not designed into the game from Day 1. In a nation dominated by religious influence, the inner circle advisors always included senior church leaders, especially among the Catholic and Orthodox states. Let me give you a brutally honest modern example, that is no different than it was 1,000 years ago -- before Russia invaded Crimea (in the Real World) and took over recently, Rus Pres Putin met with the leader of the Russian Orthodox church to get the "Okay" to invade Ukraine - no kidding, look it up. The Orthodox Church in Ukraine had split off (mini-schism) from the Russian Orthodox Church and thus - Rus was angry about it, so the church leader in Rus was very motivated to show support for Putin's plans for invasion.

I don't think I need to even discuss the lengthy history of the Crusades and post-Crusade to show how interwoven the Catholic Church was to national leadership in Europe, it's very obvious. And as result, if anyone is considered an Inner Circle, close Advisor to the senior leaders/King of a nation, it should be Church leadership (who are not just providing Missionary buffs). I think it's time to expand the Church's influence on national leadership, and provide buffs for Papal Influence or Patriarch Authority, via the paid Advisor system.

 

[Selvydius]

There are already enough advisors that it's already moderately expensive early game and later just annoying having to cycle trough them just to get the one you want wih the right culture or level, there's no need to add more in my opinion.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

There are already enough advisors that it's already moderately expensive early game and later just annoying having to cycle trough them just to get the one you want wih the right culture or level, there's no need to add more in my opinion.

I can see your point, but arguably this buff (Church Influence related) makes more sense thematically than a Missionary Buff would (the current buff-we-have), so even if the compromise was that you could only get one (Church Influence/Papal/Patriarch buffs), and not the other (Missionary buff) -- I'd argue that a political "advisor" in the inner circle of a kingdom's leadership would result in Church Influence related improvement, not some magical boost to Missionary performance in far off lands.

 

[Selvydius]

I can see your point, but arguably this buff (Church Influence related) makes more sense thematically than a Missionary Buff would (the current buff-we-have), so even if the compromise was that you could only get one (Church Influence/Papal/Patriarch buffs), and not the other (Missionary buff) -- I'd argue that a political "advisor" in the inner circle of a kingdom's leadership would result in Church Influence related improvement, not some magical boost to Missionary performance in far off lands.

I don't see how every other advisor is providing any less magical bonuses than the missionary strength one. Give how religious conversion works it makes sense to me. Besides, gameplay wise the missionary strength advisor can be a deal breaker to convert religious center/centers of reformation early on if you didn't take religious ideas as your 1st idea group or don't have missionary strength in your national idea. It's also useful for converting provinces which have a -2% by default like muslims.

 

[Hezekiah]

I suggest adding +Piety and -Piety for Islam, +Karma Decay for Hindu, +Church Power for the Anglican, Hussite, Protestant, and Reformed, and +Harmony for Confucian.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

I don't see how every other advisor is providing any less magical bonuses than the missionary strength one. Give how religious conversion works it makes sense to me. Besides, gameplay wise the missionary strength advisor can be a deal breaker to convert religious center/centers of reformation early on if you didn't take religious ideas as your 1st idea group or don't have missionary strength in your national idea. It's also useful for converting provinces which have a -2% by default like muslims.

I acknowledge that Missionary buffs have importance, but thematically the Political-Religious aspect of an Advisor to the Duke/King/Emperor is better aligned toward Church Influence than performance of a Missionary, so I'm also arguing that there's more logic to having these buffs. In Orthodoxy, the increased Patriarch Authority results in better Missionary performance (and several other buffs/enhancements), so for Orthodoxy specifically, you would end up with indirect Missionary buffs plus much more of an indirect benefit in total. But in the end, I'm not arguing for only one or the other (Church Influence vs Missionaries) but rather - that the Church Influence Advisor be in Addition to the pool of random Advisors we now are offered.

Consider this, as the ultimate compromise to your argument against this -- if Missionary buff remained in the Administrative Power lane, and this Church Influence/Papal/Patriarch buff Advisor was in the Diplomatic Power lane, you could have both! So in your heavily Christian vs Muslim scenario, you'd actually have potential to finally gather the buffs necessary to really get game-changing results. I, for one, have always thought the Conversion buffs were too underpowered (and overly nerfed from Development in Province) and that the Muslim anti-conversion -2.00 was too powerful and should have been scaled by metrics based on other factors, such as the amount of time the province had been Muslim from a .5 (just converted to Muslim) to 2.00 rating (for provinces that were Muslim 50+ years). That's a totally separate/tangential issue that Dev's should look at for an EU5 build, in my opinion, as a more "dynamic" approach to religious status of geographic provinces/states/regions and proportionalize their religious influences differently from the game-we-have now. For example, I would also be all-for a new capability that when you own an entire State's provinces, that you could Convert at the State-level with one Missionary for increased cost/time yet more efficiencies of scale.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

I suggest adding +Piety and -Piety for Islam, +Karma Decay for Hindu, +Church Power for the Anglican, Hussite, Protestant, and Reformed, and +Harmony for Confucian.

Agreed except it would be +/- Decay seeking Zero for Karma (Hindu etc.), debatable if .5 or 1 per year, along with the others seeking that "best" amount, which is Zero for some of them. And I think it could be debated, if this Suggestion were actually implemented -- whether the Advisor should reside in the Diplomatic or Military Power lane of the random Advisor pool. In some religions, you could argue that this type of a Religious Advisor would actually be a Military Power lane individual, especially in Islam where the Religious and Political power are "all in one" as it is the ultimate Theocracy system (just look at any modern Islamic Republic of _____, as those nations are actually led by the Islamic church leadership, and their "president" is a figure head for western nations to hear speeches from, but the Grand Ayatollah is the true leader of the nation like Oz behind the curtain, and it has been this way for over 1,000 years in some parts of the world).

 

[Hezekiah]

Agreed except it would be +/- Decay seeking Zero for Karma (Hindu etc.)

That's what I meant. "Increased decay toward zero".

 

[annulen]

I support idea of advisor for Catholics. To get substantial income of papal influence you need to be have provinces with at least 10 dev outside of colonial regions, so large European countries may easily get several cardinals when others have only one or none at all. Also it depends on relations with Papal State which are easier to maintain if you are located not very far from it. Also, many player believe that Catholicism if one of the weakest religions in game in terms of efficiency of its bonuses. Given all above reasons, it would seem fair to add papal influence advisor, it would make Catholicism more attractive option and could compensate at least some of its unfairness.

However, I believe that other religions don't need such advisors as they are more powerful and don't depend on Papal State and distribution of cardinals. I'm especially negative towards Piety advisor for muslims, as they can easily get plenty of it with proper war declarations, events, and decisions.

 

[annulen]

As for Orthodox, it's considered to be the strongest religion in game by many player (or, at least, one of the strongest religions) so I doubt it needs any further buffs.

 

[annulen]

Thinking more about it, I believe better option would be to give increase of papal influence as a second bonus when you hire Catholic Inquisitor while being Catholic country (not Theologian for balance considerations, because Theologians are notably popular among conquerors)

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

Thinking more about it, I believe better option would be to give increase of papal influence as a second bonus when you hire Catholic Inquisitor while being Catholic country (not Theologian for balance considerations, because Theologians are notably popular among conquerors)

I would just like to see more Options, more choice in the matter. And as I previously stated, the Papal/Patriarch Authority buffing Advisor could be in the Diplomatic lane (or Military, for that matter), while the Theologian/Missionary buffing Advisor could remain in Admin advisor lane, so you could have both by choice, active simultaneously, which would also play well in the theme of a Theocracy form of government (something that I'd actually like to see/try more of in game).

 

[annulen]

And as I previously stated, the Papal/Patriarch Authority buffing Advisor could be in the Diplomatic lane (or Military, for that matter), while the Theologian/Missionary buffing Advisor could remain in Admin advisor lane, so you could have both by choice, active simultaneously, which would also play well in the theme of a Theocracy form of government (something that I'd actually like to see/try more of in game).

Makes sense, then it could be added to Statesman (not Diplomat for the same reason). I think it should not be Military advisor, because adding new bonus to existing types would be overpowered, and adding new advisor type would make it longer and more costly to obtain advisor that you want.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

Makes sense, then it could be added to Statesman (not Diplomat for the same reason). I think it should not be Military advisor, because adding new bonus to existing types would be overpowered, and adding new advisor type would make it longer and more costly to obtain advisor that you want.

Maybe a standard Theocracy form of government (and all Theocracy variants) could always have a +1 Advisor buff, thus creating the larger pool of Advisors "on the bench" to pick and choose those that offer more religious or military power. I could see this thematically that a Theocracy would want more Inner Circle people just like the Vatican and other "Organized Religion" bureaucracies tend to do.

I will offer even one more, that a Theocracy could have an option to always have a Theologian and this new/different Advisor "always on" call, always in the pool of available Advisors to pay for, as their +1 Advisor that is a locked-in availability (not that you have to pay for that Advisor, but it becomes a permanent hiring option, perhaps with pop-ups that can cut cost in half(?) but that may be OP).

 

[annulen]

Maybe a standard Theocracy form of government (and all Theocracy variants) could always have a +1 Advisor buff

That would work only if Papal advisor is offered exclusively to Theocracies, otherwise all other governments will be effectively penalized by addition of Papal advisor.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

That would work only if Papal advisor is offered exclusively to Theocracies, otherwise all other governments will be effectively penalized by addition of Papal advisor.

Yes, exactly, as it could either be that a Theocracy (only) is given a +1 Advisor option, for any random/additional Advisor to be available, OR to offer a semi-permanent +1 Advisor that is specifically a Theologian and this new Diplo/Authority buffing Advisor (not one of the standard 3 offered, but a 4th or +1 depending on other buffs). It would certainly give players some motivation to test out and play Theocracies more than they are now. I can't recall any favorable threads here about the joys of playing a Theocracy, to be honest.

But just to be clear, my core Suggestion here is that ANY form of Government should include the Diplo lane Advisor option for this new "Authority buffing" Advisor, as this type of religious advisor makes more logical sense for a king/president to have in the Inner Circle than a would-be Missionary-buffing advisor. You'd think that only a Crusader Republic or something - would employ the Missionary buffing advisor, for that matter (or Spaniards going into South America).

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

And honestly, why not change the game to offer the Player the option to pay to find a specific advisor? I know, it's a CK2 thing, just like paying to find a Guru or whatever, but you'd think that instead of kicking out an available Advisor for Ducats, that opens up the random-slot filler, that instead we could pay a scaled (or set) fee for someone to "find me a _____ advisor" (of a specific type). That's the type of thing a bureaucracy should be able to do, and not just rely on random people showing up at national Headquarters.

 

[annulen]

It would certainly give players some motivation to test out and play Theocracies more than they are now. I can't recall any favorable threads here about the joys of playing a Theocracy, to be honest.

Theocracy can get Great Holy War CB allowing to convert heathens in a peace treaty, as well as other things. And if you have Deus Vult, Great Holy War CB allows you to declare war on every heathen nation in the world.

 

[annulen]

But just to be clear, my core Suggestion here is that ANY form of Government should include the Diplo lane Advisor option for this new "Authority buffing" Advisor

In this case I think it would be better to add this capability to existing unpopular advisor type

as this type of religious advisor makes more logical sense for a king/president to have in the Inner Circle than a would-be Missionary-buffing advisor. You'd think that only a Crusader Republic or something - would employ the Missionary buffing advisor, for that matter (or Spaniards going into South America).

Aside from roleplaying, improving religious unity via conversion is beneficial to any country which doesn't have Humanist ideas or other tolerance modifiers, and employing missionary can be crucial to convert provinces with high development and/or unaccepted culture in 10 year time frame (before -100 unrest expires). It's just not that kind of advisor whose profession could benefit you for their whole lifetime (usually).

 

[annulen]

And I stand on my opinion (see above) that this "Authority buffing" advisor should be Catholic-only, or at least not available for religions which give strong bonuses and/or have little trouble with getting "Authority" in other ways (but I'm not opposed if it's exclusive for theocracies). See also suggestion at https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...panded-to-accommodate-more-religions.1483549/