Add Nestorian/Asyrian Christianity

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tkamin

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I would like to propose adding a new branch of Christianity to the game: Nestorain/Asyrian Christianity. I am suggestion it for two reasonse:
1. Historical accuracy (minor): As far as I know this relgion was still present on Socotra in 1444.
2. CK2-EU4 conversion improvment (major): Currently (after introduction of Ibadi/Coptic) the Nestorian is only main branch religion from CK2 that does not convert to a separate full-fledged religion in EU4, so that will provide a major improvement to conversion process.

I asked for improvment conversion for this religion in CK2 forum and received following response, that led me to creation of this thread.
Before Coptic or Ibadi was added to EU4 those religions were independent in CK2 but were still converted to Orthodox or Sunni. I am not going to treat Nestorian any different.
If you want it independent in EU4, complain on the EU4 team and it will be made independent.
Full discussion on this topic starts on page 6 of following thread http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?829854-Crusader-Kings-II-2.3.2-PATCH-RELEASED-Checksum-MMUR-NOT-for-problem-reports!/page6
 
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tkamin

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Nope - 50-100 years and Nestorian is convert to muslim. In next 50-100 years player have restauration of nestiranism in eg. Lithuania.

I am trying to understand, why this is a problem for Nestorian, but not for Coptic/Ibadi. According to wikipedia, churchs that follows Nestorian doctrine are still active nowadays, e.g. Assyrian Church of the East. Could you please explain the issue in a bit more elaborate way?
 

leadshooter69

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I think it means that the starting Nestorian provinces will be converted by their Muslim owners in the first years then provinces in Lithuania will switch to Nestorian because of that event you get that switches your provinces to heresies when your heretic tolerance is high, which Lithuania's is because of its NIs (you can see this with Coptic a lot).

Either way I feel that current weird behavior is not a good reason to add a religion.

A way of solving that problem could be splitting the Christian religion group into Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian groups. Non-Chalcedonian would include Coptic and Nestorian but this would cause weirdness in other ways and I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of it.
 

Demetrios

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I am trying to understand, why this is a problem for Nestorian, but not for Coptic/Ibadi. According to wikipedia, churchs that follows Nestorian doctrine are still active nowadays, e.g. Assyrian Church of the East. Could you please explain the issue in a bit more elaborate way?

Nestorian would only have a single province; Coptic and Ibadi, on the other hand, held majorities in a good number of provinces and were state religions for several nations in the game.

Simply put, what would a Nestorian Socotra do? Its Islamic overlord will very likely quickly convert it, and there's pretty much a 0% chance that somehow a Nestorian nation will form in game from the single province in order to send out missionaries to spread the religion. The process whereby that might actually happen would be... mind-boggling.
 
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Nestorian would only have a single province; Coptic and Ibadi, on the other hand, held majorities in a good number of provinces and were state religions for several nations in the game.

Simply put, what would a Nestorian Socotra do? Its Islamic overlord will very likely quickly convert it, and there's pretty much a 0% chance that somehow a Nestorian nation will form in game from the single province in order to send out missionaries to spread the religion. The process whereby that might actually happen would be... mind-boggling.

Well yes, that would happen.

But I believe OP was also saying that in the event of a Ck2 - EUIV conversion where Nestorian somehow managed to survive & thrive, the religion should have some form of representation.

Socotra does not necessarily HAVE to be Nestorian in the 1444 start, but the religion could be added into the game for conversion purposes. Think of it as a hidden feature.
 

tkamin

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Well yes, that would happen.

But I believe OP was also saying that in the event of a Ck2 - EUIV conversion where Nestorian somehow managed to survive & thrive, the religion should have some form of representation.

Socotra does not necessarily HAVE to be Nestorian in the 1444 start, but the religion could be added into the game for conversion purposes. Think of it as a hidden feature.

Yes, that was actually main major point for having a feature: it would improve converted games, while still provide more accuracy for vanilla game.
Also we have a one province gothic Theodoro, and I think that the game, when this culture would be spread, has the same level of propability.
 

talilu

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Actually if we count assyrian church as nestorian, it would have some good 3-4 provinces at middle east such as antioch and aleppo. Even now assyrians have their church in syria so why should they be excluded from the game?
 

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Why not?

In 99% of games Socotra is occupied by rebels all the time, at least give them something to achieve!
 
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Since ED is going to add Jewish and Norse from the converter to the Nation Designer, it seems pretty reasonable to add Nestorianism as well.
 
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I we add Nestorianism to the game - I have nothing against it - I would also support Zorastrism, Tengrism, Jainism and Taoism as well. Also I am wondering if it would be possible for Beta Israel OPM Judaistic kingdom to exist in 1444.

Ooh and Greek Catholicism as special historical decision would be amazing.
 
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I we add Nestorianism to the game - I have nothing against it - I would also support Zorastrism, Tengrism, Jainism and Taoism as well. Also I am wondering if it would be possible for Beta Israel OPM Judaistic kingdom to exist in 1444.

Ooh and Greek Catholicism as special historical decision would be amazing.

Semien would be a neat addition.

Zoroastrianism is long gone though by this point, and Iran should be Sunni.
 

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'Coptic' seems to be serving as the default bucket for all the non-Chalcedonian churches. Renaming it 'Oriental Orthodox' would be more inclusive (but still excluding the Assyrians), but it might confuse players who don't know the difference between 'Oriental Orthodox' and 'Eastern Orthodox'. I don't know if it needs to be divided up again, though. I'd rather Paradox think of some proper religious mechanics to give these churches, so real countries like Ethiopia have something to work with (even just copy-pasting the Patriarch Authority system would be better than the status quo).
 

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Yes please! It is entirely possible to so with the nation designer.
 

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Nestorian would include also Mosul Urmia and Cizre not just Socotra. ... if we can have a oneprovince Zoroastrian and one province Jewish religion why not Nestorian?
 

Grand Historian

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May 13, 2014
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Simply put, what would a Nestorian Socotra do? Its Islamic overlord will very likely quickly convert it, and there's pretty much a 0% chance that somehow a Nestorian nation will form in game from the single province in order to send out missionaries to spread the religion. The process whereby that might actually happen would be... mind-boggling.

Well, the devs did kinda give Zoroastrian it's day in the sun, so I don't see why they can't just make Socotra Nestorian and have it start off owned by the Dhimmi to make it unconvertible.

If memory serves, there were also a few places in Mesopotamia at gamestart that are deserving of being Nestorian.
 
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