• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

quinntan2222

Second Lieutenant
64 Badges
Feb 26, 2012
146
143
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I've been doing a bit of research on Celtic cultures and history lately and I feel that Scotland should be split into two cultures, a highland one (Highland Scottish, Gaelic, Highlander, Gaelic Scottish) and a lowland one (Lowland Scottish, Scottish, Scots, Lowlander) like it originally was in EU3. As far as I'm aware, the reason Highland Scottish was removed was to prevent patriots from defecting to Ireland/Brittany. Since there is a new rebel system and new tags can be added, I don't think that should be a problem anymore.

The reason I feel the cultures should be re-split is there was quite a difference in culture between the Lowlanders and Highlanders in Scotland. The Scottish Kingdom was dominated by the Lowlands as they were the more populous area of Scotland. The Lowlanders also were also much more similar to English culture then they were to the Highlanders. They spoke a Germanic language Scots, which is very similar to English. The lowland Scots created ties with the French and English nobility, with king David I introducing English institutions such as feudal land tenure, replacing Scottish nobles with Anglo-Norman nobility, and court systems similar to those in England in the 12th century. Later on in history, the Lowlands were more in line with the English as well, such as accepting Protestantism and supporting the Hanoverian over the Jacobites.

The Highlanders however had more in common with the Irish than the lowlanders. The Highlanders spoke Scottish Gaelic, a Celtic language very similar to Irish. The feudal system wasn't near as developed in the Highlands as it was in the Lowlands and the clan system dominated. Tannistry succession in the clans was common. Highlander/Clan rebellions against the Scottish kings weren't uncommon, such as the Battle of Lochaber in 1429, Battle of Harlaw in 1411, and the Rebellion of Domhnall Dubh in the 16th century. This is not to mention the most famous of the rebellions, the Jacobite Uprising in support of the Stuarts after the Glorious Revolution. After the rebellion failed, Highland culture was repressed with the banning of tartans and kilts and a number of acts were passed that severely limited the power of the clans. Much of the Highlands stuck to Catholicism during the Reformation in contrast to the Lowlands. The Highland Clearances were also created which forcibly removed the native Highlanders in favor of granting their land to Lowlanders to develop for sheep farming.

The difference in culture between the Highlanders and Lowlanders was apparent to contemporaries of the time:
John of Fordun's Chronica Gentis Scotorum c. 1390 said:
The character of the Scots however varies according to the difference in language. For they have two languages, namely the Scottish language (lingua Scotica) and the Teutonic language (lingua Theutonica). The people who speak the Teutonic language occupy the coastal and lowland regions, while those who speak the Scottish language live in the mountainous regions and outer isles. The coastal people (maritima gens) are docile and civilised, trustworthy, long-suffering and courteous, decent in their dress, polite and peaceable, devout in their worship, but always ready to resist injuries threatened by their enemies. The island or mountain people (insulana sive montana gens) however are fierce and untameable, uncouth andunpleasant, much given to theft, fond of doing nothing, but their minds are quick to learn, and cunning. They are strikingly handsome in appearance, but their clothing is unsightly. They are always hostile and savage not only towards the people and language of England, but also towards their fellow Scots (proprie nacioni) because of the difference in language. They are however loyal and obedient to the king and kingdom, and they are easily made to submit to the laws, if rule is exerted over them.

Game mechanism wise, I feel that adding Highland culture would also add historical flavor while playing in the British Isles. Historically, Scottish kings had to invest a decent amount of effort keeping the clans subdued. When Scotland is small, Highlander would remain accepted representing the ability of kings to keep order there but if Scotland were to expand too much or England were to take over, the culture wouldn't be accepted leading to potential rebellion. The clearances and laws banning Highlander culture could also be seen as a type of technical "culture conversion." It would also give Irish minors another culturally safe place to expand, now that Brittany is in the French group.

As for a Highlander tag, history gives us the title of Lord of the Isles or Innse Gall, which in the 15th century was still a disloyal vassal of the Scottish king. In February 1462 John of Islay signed the Treaty of Westminster-Ardtornish, which envisioned the Lord of the Isles gaining all land north of the River Forth in return for paying homage to the English king. Game mechanism wise, I would see this as a disloyal vassal getting support independence from England, winning the war and getting some territory then being diplovassalized by England. The war failed though and the Lordship of the Isles was absorbed into the Scottish Crown. Regardless, the Lord of the Isles was autonomous enough in 1444 to at least warrant cores, if not being a vassal of Scotland outright. If they were a vassal, I'd probably make them a tribal despotism with an option to form Scotland to get Feudal Monarchy.

Innse Gall (The Isles)
Primary Culture: Highlander (Celtic)
----------------------------------------------
Highlander Ideas:
Traditions
+50% Hostile Core Creation on Us
+1 Attrition for Enemies
Tanistry Succession: +1 Legitimacy
Claidheamh-mòr: +10% Infantry Combat Ability
Kelp Harvesting: +5% Production Efficiency
Lord of the Isles: +15% Naval Force Limit
Clan Autonomy: -5% Build Power Cost/Development Cost
Gallowglass: -10% Mercenary Cost
Highland Charge: +2 Land Leader Shock
Ambitions
+10 Global Settler Increase
 
Last edited:
  • 6
Reactions:
Upvote 0

MacDuffin

Second Lieutenant
83 Badges
Jan 25, 2014
174
317
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • War of the Roses
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Imperator: Rome
I was actually trying to write out a proper argument in favour of this exact same topic, Scotland as a whole just seems to be a rather bland nation compared to what it truly was, especially concerning its difficulties in reigning in its Highland Clans.
They where clearly a distinct group of individuals, with James VI of Scotland (I of England, Scotland, and Ireland) denoting them as "Erse" (Irish) barbarians, and making it very obvious that they where not the same as Lowland Scots.

In terms of how the game can be improved, outside of what the OP has stated (which I agree with) I wouldn't mind seeing a small DLC package like Res Publica, or a update to change how nations with largely different ethnic groups handle. Outside of Scotland I could think of the Sami of Sweden/Norway and the Cossacks of East Europe on the top of my head.
In terms of Scotland, if they control the Highlands I would like the idea of a slider that dictates the amount of state control has on its Highlander peoples. Through a series of events the slider can go to complete control, where Scotland gains increased productivity and taxes, but also higher unrest and possible outright rebellion until the culture is changed. By leaving the Highlands to rule themselves you get higher manpower and morale, but possible hits to diplomacy (Raids on English soil, etc.) and during the reformation they might change without the rest of the nation doing so (Much of the Highlands was Catholic, but plenty did convert to Presbyterianism).

I don't know if that mechanic would work if England or another nation took the Highlands, or if the mechanic would work at all, but there needs to be a stronger focus on the region.
That, and there needs to be some new skins for the units, plaid on plaid on plaid might be hard to make, but it would really add oomph to the country.
 

talilu

Captain
Sep 28, 2014
337
276
I added Scots to my mod to the lower Scotland and made Scotland's primary culture Scots. However, as you already said, Scotland is really weak and Highlanders kept defecting to random Irish Minors/Brittany/Wales constantly. It was so ridicilous. In the end I deleted the Scots culture and made Scottish a Celtic culture, even though its ahistorical, better for Scotsmen to be Scottish than some petty Fake English British.

(yeah i do enjoy making england struggle with celts for their lifetime :p)
 

quinntan2222

Second Lieutenant
64 Badges
Feb 26, 2012
146
143
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I added Scots to my mod to the lower Scotland and made Scotland's primary culture Scots. However, as you already said, Scotland is really weak and Highlanders kept defecting to random Irish Minors/Brittany/Wales constantly. It was so ridicilous. In the end I deleted the Scots culture and made Scottish a Celtic culture, even though its ahistorical, better for Scotsmen to be Scottish than some petty Fake English British.

(yeah i do enjoy making england struggle with celts for their lifetime :p)
If you added a tag for highland culture, it should fix the defection problem since it would probably preferentially make nationalists rather than patriots. An independent highlands/western isles shouldn't be out of the question if the lowlanders treat them badly enough. I also wouldn't be surprised if Paradox moved Welsh into the British culture group since the Welsh for the most part were fairly well integrated into the British nobility and that's what they did with Britanny. That would leave the highlanders to only defect to the Irish, which is still a bit strange but at least they speak a very similar language. What I really hope Paradox doesn't do is move all the Celtic cultures into the British group because Irish and Highlander definitely weren't an "Accepted Culture" in Great Britain.

And yeah, Scotland is ahistorically weak but that seems to be the case with most small countries. Maybe if Paradox reworks the British Isles, Scotland can get a couple more provinces to give Scotland a bit more of a chance.
 
Last edited:

MacDuffin

Second Lieutenant
83 Badges
Jan 25, 2014
174
317
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • War of the Roses
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Imperator: Rome
Agree. Also, i think Highlanders should be accepted in Scotland, but not under England or Great Britain rule, leading to the classical highlander revolts and unrest. Some events chains would be nice.
I really like this idea, and it is greatly supported by history, up until the union of crowns Scottish kings where able to speak Gaelic to keep with the clans. A union or collapse of Scotland would lead to a revolt, possibly along with Ireland.
 
  • 1
Reactions: