Add decision to form Serbia

[Anatur]

Given that Bosnia and Montenegro exist ingame,and that both had claims to the Serbian throne at certain times,it would be reasonable to make a decision that lets nations with primary Serbian culture form Serbia if they own the Serbian heartland.

There is already precedence for this in the Balkans since Croatian culture nations can form Croatia.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Given that Bosnia and Montenegro exist ingame,and that both had claims to the Serbian throne at certain times,it would be reasonable to make a decision that lets nations with primary Serbian culture form Serbia if they own the Serbian heartland.

There is already precedence for this in the Balkans since Croatian culture nations can form Croatia.

You might be interested in this @otaats

 

[otaats]

@Sanguine Caesar thanks bud

That's actually quite a nice proposition. There was even a constitutional statement in Montenegro, that it would join Serbian state in the case of liberation of heartland. Bosnia could also perhapse get a mission to get a PU on Serbia, as it did basically a couple of years before both were annexed.

 

[DanubianCossak]

If the game started earlier, and we had the fragmented Serbian empire, with main entity being Moravian Serbia, then yeah, it would make sense, a sort of reunification decision.

However as it is, its kinda meh. You already have reunified Serbia; but then again its the same case with France?

I dont know, this could go either way.

Maybe im partial to national decisions and prefer to see each one of these countries with their own unique character?

 

[Yevardian]

I'd like to see a Danzig-type event for Montenegro. I don't think I've seen that tag ever.

 

[otaats]

I'd like to see a Danzig-type event for Montenegro. I don't think I've seen that tag ever.

That's what i suggested in my sig thread I've seen MNE a couple of times, but it's usually result of someone destroying Venice and forcing to release states. While i'm at it, Montenegrin NI's should be re-evaluated. Too much accent was put on Piracy (okay) and non-combat modifiers. Montenegro should have an insane army morale (at the very least) either in it's ideas or traditions.

 

[otaats]

More arguments for Montenegrin combat supremacy:

• Battle of Martinići
• Battle of Krusi
• Battle of Murino
• Battle of Fundina

These are only a few battles, but there were many more like this with no English sources. For further insight, take a look at era of elective Vladikas.

 

[DanubianCossak]

That's what i suggested in my sig thread I've seen MNE a couple of times, but it's usually result of someone destroying Venice and forcing to release states. While i'm at it, Montenegrin NI's should be re-evaluated. Too much accent was put on Piracy (okay) and non-combat modifiers. Montenegro should have an insane army morale (at the very least) either in it's ideas or traditions.

Well if you dont like my ideas write better ones!

 

[neondt]

I will have to decide whether Serbia will be formable at some point, and this is the criteria I use for whether a country that exists in 1444 should be formable:
1. It defines the region and the name of the country would be adopted by a regional minor that united the region (England, France, etc)
2. There are minor nation/s or releasables with its culture that should be eligible to form it
3. The country has access to unique content (missions, events, etc) that would make the game more fun for aforementioned minors.

 

[otaats]

Well if you dont like my ideas write better ones!

I actually like the ideas and especially references to them, but i feel like MNE should have a 15% army morale modifier (for example, instead of Manpower modifier in Čojstvo & Junaštvo). I know this seems OP but Montenegro is an OPM that was historically nearly impossible to be pacified due to the sheer brutality that the Ottomans would suffer every time they would attack.

It could also make it a quite popular OPM in a very perilous part of the world (a lot of potential achievement ideas too).

 

[cuendillar]

I will have to decide whether Serbia will be formable at some point, and this is the criteria I use for whether a country that exists in 1444 should be formable:
1. It defines the region and the name of the country would be adopted by a regional minor that united the region (England, France, etc)
2. There are minor nation/s or releasables with its culture that should be eligible to form it
3. The country has access to unique content (missions, events, etc) that would make the game more fun for aforementioned minors.

Does this mean Ethiopia's a good candidate?
It's surrounded by minors of cultures whose languages are recognized in present-day Ethiopia, that start more or less within its present borders. There is little to motivate that an Amhara-dominated Ethiopia cannot be displaced by, for example, an Oromo or Sidamo one. Besides, some of those minors are still stuck on Generic(!!) NIs. I'd say 2 and 3 are clearly fulfilled, 1 is more arguable as it comes mostly down to speculation. Ethiopia's history and heritage is probably strong enough that they'd adopt the name though.

 

[Lor360]

Speaking as a Croat, if Croatia is formable, Serbia realy should be too. I dont mean that in some equal politicaly correct way, I mean since both countries are in very simmilar situations in EU 4. Maybe Serbia even has slightly more reasons to be formable.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Speaking as a Croat, if Croatia is formable, Serbia realy should be too. I dont mean that in some equal politicaly correct way, I mean since both countries are in very simmilar situations in EU 4. Maybe Serbia even has slightly more reasons to be formable.

Other than Montenegro im not sure who would realistically want to do it.
-Croatia has its own kingdom, so definitely not (that would kinda be like England changing to France if it inherited or conquered France).
-Bosnia? Hard to tell. The union over Serbia happened by Bosnian king marrying his heir to the heiress of Serbia, which technically made the guy king-consort; but when his paps died couple of years later, he also inherited Bosnia, and to make an even mess his primary title was iirc King (or despot) of Serbia and then Bosnia. But if not for this marriage (which happened in order to strengthen Bosnia for their expansion/conquest into Croatia btw) i dont see Bosnia changing into Serbia, if they grew they would have remained Bosnia most likely, and changing primary title to Serbia wouldnt really appease the Serbian nobility (if for no other reason then because the Bosnian elite was nominally catholic and practically heretic half of the time).

 

[gronak]

Speaking as a Croat, if Croatia is formable, Serbia realy should be too. I dont mean that in some equal politicaly correct way, I mean since both countries are in very simmilar situations in EU 4. Maybe Serbia even has slightly more reasons to be formable.

It's literally called land of the Serbs, it makes complete sense for a Serbian nation to from Serbia, Croatia makes equal sense. I think Albania should be formable for an Albanian cultured nation too. This could happen not only if a nation culture shifts, but trade cities could break free and take the Albanian lands. Would be really weird to see a trade city, owning Albania, Albanian cultured, not going by the name Albania.

Edit: @DanubianCossak, free trade cities should be able to form Serbia. If a nation culture converted to Serbian they should be able to form it too, I like to RP my games and often migrations happen in them.

 

[Lor360]

Other than Montenegro im not sure who would realistically want to do it.
-Croatia has its own kingdom, so definitely not (that would kinda be like England changing to France if it inherited or conquered France).
-Bosnia? Hard to tell. The union over Serbia happened by Bosnian king marrying his heir to the heiress of Serbia, which technically made the guy king-consort; but when his paps died couple of years later, he also inherited Bosnia, and to make an even mess his primary title was iirc King (or despot) of Serbia and then Bosnia. But if not for this marriage (which happened in order to strengthen Bosnia for their expansion/conquest into Croatia btw) i dont see Bosnia changing into Serbia, if they grew they would have remained Bosnia most likely, and changing primary title to Serbia wouldnt really appease the Serbian nobility (if for no other reason then because the Bosnian elite was nominally catholic and practically heretic half of the time).

Well, no one ever "formed Croatia" either. It was settled before Crusader Kings 2, then it fell into a personal union under Hungary. Then it kinda just remained a subject untill World War 1 and was then part of various South Slavic unions untill the 90s.

As far as who should be able to form what, there arent a lot of tags for either. Ragusa can form Croatia, Montenegro (should) form Serbia, and Bosnia should probably be able to form both. Funnily enough, out of these I would say that Ragusa is the least realistic option to form anything since it was heavily Italianized and a trading city state that had little interest in teritorial conquests and restoring old Slavic kingdoms. So if anything Croatia formable is the one slightly less realistic.

There are also lots of new revolter tags that could be added if needed for Balkans, although most of them where just very autonomus and not independed since the Middle Ages.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Edit: @DanubianCossak, free trade cities should be able to form Serbia. If a nation culture converted to Serbian they should be able to form it too, I like to RP my games and often migrations happen in them.

Fortunately for you im not a dev, otherwise id burn that nonsense with fire

 

[DanubianCossak]

Well, no one ever "formed Croatia" either. It was settled before Crusader Kings 2, then it fell into a personal union under Hungary. Then it kinda just remained a subject untill World War 1 and was then part of various South Slavic unions untill the 90s.

True but Croatia did de facto become a geographic and political entity by EU4 time. So even if there was no Croatian state, the idea of Croatia existed, and it does make sense for a nominal Croatian power (to avoid getting into debate of cultures, here im using EU4 cultures, as they are assigned) that would control the core lands to claim Croatian heritage. Really its very similar to the concept to Russia; you had the idea of Rus', a legitimate political, historical and geographic entity, and then you had a bunch of successor states all claiming the Rus' legacy; more than one still does to this day, one is even called Russia, even though Rus' has been gone for centuries.

Similarly when it comes to Serbia, by EU4 time, it was a distinctive geographic, political and historical entity. But all of that is something that only actual Serbs would refer to or claim in order to link the ruler claiming Serbia and legitimacy. A foreign ruler (especially a non Orthodox one) claiming Serbia would not have their legitimacy recognized - so claiming Serbian heritage would mean nothing, the nobility would never accept it. This is why i can only see Montenegro doing this, as during that era they were genuinely Serbian by political orientation. Bosnia had way too many problems of its own to do such a thing imo, sort of for the same reason why Polish Catholic king had no chance of being accepted as the ruler of Russia

 

[Lor360]

True but Croatia did de facto become a geographic and political entity by EU4 time. So even if there was no Croatian state, the idea of Croatia existed, and it does make sense for a nominal Croatian power (to avoid getting into debate of cultures, here im using EU4 cultures, as they are assigned) that would control the core lands to claim Croatian heritage. Really its very similar to the concept to Russia; you had the idea of Rus', a legitimate political, historical and geographic entity, and then you had a bunch of successor states all claiming the Rus' legacy; more than one still does to this day, one is even called Russia, even though Rus' has been gone for centuries.

Similarly when it comes to Serbia, by EU4 time, it was a distinctive geographic, political and historical entity. But all of that is something that only actual Serbs would refer to or claim in order to link the ruler claiming Serbia and legitimacy. A foreign ruler (especially a non Orthodox one) claiming Serbia would not have their legitimacy recognized - so claiming Serbian heritage would mean nothing, the nobility would never accept it. This is why i can only see Montenegro doing this, as during that era they were genuinely Serbian by political orientation. Bosnia had way too many problems of its own to do such a thing imo, sort of for the same reason why Polish Catholic king had no chance of being accepted as the ruler of Russia

I dont see a problem with forming Serbia (or any other nation, like Quing, Mali, Songhai, Ethiopia, Yemen) for internal instead of external benefits to legitimacy.

Anyway, at the end of the day EU4 sadly cant simulate every historical finesse. A Bosnia with too many problems can only be represented by too much estates owning land, high autonomy or events, and a +3 stability Bosnia can be considered stable. Simmilarly, if Poland takes the option to remain a feudal monarchy, it can form a PU with Muscovy and probably keep it stable in EU4.

So a minor with Serbian/Croatian culture probably should be able to form Serbia/Croatia, even if its just for +25 prestige and a new flag.

 

[DanubianCossak]

I dont see a problem with forming Serbia (or any other nation, like Quing, Mali, Songhai, Ethiopia, Yemen) for internal instead of external benefits to legitimacy.

Anyway, at the end of the day EU4 sadly cant simulate every historical finesse. A Bosnia with too many problems can only be represented by too much estates owning land, high autonomy or events, and a +3 stability Bosnia can be considered stable. Simmilarly, if Poland takes the option to remain a feudal monarchy, it can form a PU with Muscovy and probably keep it stable in EU4.

So a minor with Serbian/Croatian culture probably should be able to form Serbia/Croatia, even if its just for +25 prestige and a new flag.

You can start the game as Ragusa and conquer Balkans.

Doesnt mean you should be able to form Yugoslavia.

There should be a line between letting people do things for the sake of these things being fun, and some things being too anachronistic / illogical for the time frame.

 

[Yevardian]

Just checking, as far as I know there are no events or decisions for Ottomans to convert Bosnia or Albania to Sunni? You could argue it's too much railroading, but it feels like something is missing. Or that Islam is currently by far the best religion in the game right now due to being the only one that can convert peacefully (lol) and without cost.