• Crusader Kings II Expansion Subscription

    Subscribe to the CK II Expansion and enjoy unlimited access to 13 major expansions and more!


  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Zordrath

Recruit
26 Badges
Nov 12, 2016
8
6
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Knights of Honor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Ancient Space
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • King Arthur II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
Disfavored playthrough spoilers follow.

I found that the game underwent a massive shift from Act 1 to 2. In the first act, you're constantly pondering the morality of your choices. Who do you side with? Who do you let go? Do you choose order over chaos? How much brutality is necessary to establish peace?

Act 2 is the exact opposite: After siding with the Disfavored, this dictated almost all of my choices and I suddenly got to decide very little myself. All has already been decided by my previous choices.

- The Unbroken are always your enemies, and so are the Regent loyalists. The only way to lift the Edict is to literally slaughter everyone belonging to either faction. Now this didn't bother me as much yet because there is the significant choice of the heir at the end, which was a brillant and brutal surprise. And from a story point of view, it made sense that the stubborn people of Stalwart would not bow to you.

- However, this then repeated itself at Lethian's crossing, and here it felt much more contrived. The Bronze Brotherhood are a band of mercenaries with serious doubts about their mad leader, and yet it's entirely impossible to bring ANY of them to your side? Nope, you once again have to ultimately kill every single one of them you come across. There's one or two groups you can talk your way past, but nothing significant in terms of story. A choice between two sides never comes up here because the Forgebound simply don't do anything wrong and the Brotherhood is insane. When you suddenly had the option to kill the Forgebound leader at the end despite the fact that you have absolutely no cause for it, it didn't feel like a great and meaningful decision. It simply felt nonsensical.

- Lastly, you travel to Cairn, the archon of stone. And once again, you have absolutely no choice how to handle things. Sure, the Chorus won't be open for negotiation at this point, but I feel you could have justified the Beastmen not being dead-set against you in any case. This meant that it once again came down to simply slaughtering your way through everything with very little room for creative solutions. And most egregiously, when the plan is hatched to blight the entire landscape forever, your only option is to fully cooperate. What the hell? I'm an agent of Tunon, not Ashe's lackey, and to my character the notion of permanently destroying Kyros' land (to kill Kyros' own soldiers, no less!) was repugnant. And sure, I could say so, but it had no effect.

Act 3 gets much better again because your relationships to the different factions bear fruit and can result in a number of possible outcomes, many of which feel awesome (that the ending comes very abruptly is another matter). But during Act 2, I felt way too much like a simple errand boy. This had the unpleasant side effect of making a LOT of dialogue feel pointless, well-written though it is, because you can't actually change anything.


I know that there is one significant choice you can make, and that is betraying your alliance. I didn't do that for roleplaying reasons: In the Blade Grave, I didn't know yet that two further regions of railroaded slaughter lay ahead of me and found it fitting that I couldn't reason all that much with the Unbroken - after all, it's in their name! By the time of Lethian's Crossing, I was already wishing for independence, but I found the specific way I had to declare it (killing a Forgebound master who had done me no wrong and wasn't even fully part of the Disfavored) to be distasteful.

How do you guys feel about this? Did you have a similiar experiences? Are there choices I could have made that I have overlooked? My character had high Lore, Athletics AND subterfuge, so I usually had all possible dialogue options available to me, but perhaps I still missed something.

I also wonder how things go on the other paths, especially the independent one. Do you get to choose between factions more often there? I'm just a bit disappointed at the moment because the first act was so great (and there's still plenty to love about the rest of the game!), but this aspect of constantly challenging my perceptions of morality suddenly fell away for a VERY big chunk of the game.
 
Last edited:

red4scare

Corporal
26 Badges
May 17, 2016
46
83
  • Darkest Hour
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Dungeonland
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Prison Architect
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
I had fun in act two, ending edicts and learning about the world. But yes, I felt I was being forced to kill everyone just because. I still don´t know why the Bronze Brotherhood attacks me in the town after being granted access by their crazy leader at the bridge. Was that supposed to be the worst ambush ever? Or was it some kind of bug? I see people posting about having to choose between the Bronze guys and the Forge guys, so seems there´s a path for an alliance. I was not able to make any allies in my playthrough, I guess that killing all the rebels in Act 1 makes the other rebel factions become hostile, which I guess makes sense.

Anyway, I was going for a "kill all the assholes" playthrough so I can´t complain :p I´ll try a second run as tank (to avoid the need for Barik) and I´ll try to be friendly to at least some group XD
 

aono

Field Marshal
105 Badges
Aug 26, 2008
3.645
2.549
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I must say, I feel bad about game don't allow me to play for Tunon. I mean, well... every time soldier from Scarlet Chorus or Disfavored attacks me, he actually brokes Kyros Peace, so I'm not declared as a traitor by Court.
I believe game could win a lot if they added periodical debriefs with Court, not just two of them in the start of every act. Really I feel scared to go to the first Oldwalls: "hey, I'm breaking Kyros Law, how am I going to justify THIS to Tunon?"; and I feel actual relief finding proofs Ashe's guys, because if's justifying my being there.
But Tunon is indifferent.
 

demanvanwezel

General
84 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
2.313
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
Disfavored playthrough spoilers follow.

I found that the game underwent a massive shift from Act 1 to 2. In the first act, you're constantly pondering the morality of your choices. Who do you side with? Who do you let go? Do you choose order over chaos? How much brutality is necessary to establish peace?

Act 2 is the exact opposite: After siding with the Disfavored, this dictated almost all of my choices and I suddenly got to decide very little myself. All has already been decided by my previous choices.

- The Unbroken are always your enemies, and so are the Regent loyalists. The only way to lift the Edict is to literally slaughter everyone belonging to either faction. Now this didn't bother me as much yet because there is the significant choice of the heir at the end, which was a brillant and brutal surprise. And from a story point of view, it made sense that the stubborn people of Stalwart would not bow to you.

- However, this then repeated itself at Lethian's crossing, and here it felt much more contrived. The Bronze Brotherhood are a band of mercenaries with serious doubts about their mad leader, and yet it's entirely impossible to bring ANY of them to your side? Nope, you once again have to ultimately kill every single one of them you come across. There's one or two groups you can talk your way past, but nothing significant in terms of story. A choice between two sides never comes up here because the Forgebound simply don't do anything wrong and the Brotherhood is insane. When you suddenly had the option to kill the Forgebound leader at the end despite the fact that you have absolutely no cause for it, it didn't feel like a great and meaningful decision. It simply felt nonsensical.

- Lastly, you travel to Cairn, the archon of stone. And once again, you have absolutely no choice how to handle things. Sure, the Chorus won't be open for negotiation at this point, but I feel you could have justified the Beastmen not being dead-set against you in any case. This meant that it once again came down to simply slaughtering your way through everything with very little room for creative solutions. And most egregiously, when the plan is hatched to blight the entire landscape forever, your only option is to fully cooperate. What the hell? I'm an agent of Tunon, not Ashe's lackey, and to my character the notion of permanently destroying Kyros' land (to kill Kyros' own soldiers, no less!) was repugnant. And sure, I could say so, but it had no effect.

Act 3 gets much better again because your relationships to the different factions bear fruit and can result in a number of possible outcomes, many of which feel awesome (that the ending comes very abruptly is another matter). But during Act 2, I felt way too much like a simple errand boy. This had the unpleasant side effect of making a LOT of dialogue feel pointless, well-written though it is, because you can't actually change anything.


I know that there is one significant choice you can make, and that is betraying your alliance. I didn't do that for roleplaying reasons: In the Blade Grave, I didn't know yet that two further regions of railroaded slaughter lay ahead of me and found it fitting that I couldn't reason all that much with the Unbroken - after all, it's in their name! By the time of Lethian's Crossing, I was already wishing for independence, but I found the specific way I had to declare it (killing a Forgebound master who had done me no wrong and wasn't even fully part of the Disfavored) to be distasteful.

How do you guys feel about this? Did you have a similiar experiences? Are there choices I could have made that I have overlooked? My character had high Lore, Athletics AND subterfuge, so I usually had all possible dialogue options available to me, but perhaps I still missed something.

I also wonder how things go on the other paths, especially the independent one. Do you get to choose between factions more often there? I'm just a bit disappointed at the moment because the first act was so great (and there's still plenty to love about the rest of the game!), but this aspect of constantly challenging my perceptions of morality suddenly fell away for a VERY big chunk of the game.

well, that's what you get for siding with the faction who mercilesly slaughters all opposition and doesn't put up with any other potential rival group, hell they don't even conscript locals so they have no use for auxiliaries

in that strange way the chorus is much more lenient, in my chorus playthrough I left the crossing on good foot with both the brotherhood with welby in charge of it

I must say, I feel bad about game don't allow me to play for Tunon. I mean, well... every time soldier from Scarlet Chorus or Disfavored attacks me, he actually brokes Kyros Peace, so I'm not declared as a traitor by Court.
I believe game could win a lot if they added periodical debriefs with Court, not just two of them in the start of every act. Really I feel scared to go to the first Oldwalls: "hey, I'm breaking Kyros Law, how am I going to justify THIS to Tunon?"; and I feel actual relief finding proofs Ashe's guys, because if's justifying my being there.
But Tunon is indifferent.

tbh I saw siding with the rebels as the tunon outcome, it's quite clear that both the chorus and the disfavored were going to continue to bring chaos in the region and both of them are unfit for rule over the tiers
binding the locals to the rule of the court and kyros and letting them police themselves looks to me like it's the best way to bring order

too bad that after that it's all "build an army to overthrow kyros!", I don't want to overthrow kyros, just let me say: "join me and you can rule your region as you see fit as long as you obey the laws of kyros and pay hommage to the court", I want to be the lesser evil compared to the iron fist of the disfavored or the chaotic flame of the chorus
 
Last edited:

aono

Field Marshal
105 Badges
Aug 26, 2008
3.645
2.549
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
too bad that after that it's all "build an army to overthrow kyros!"
I need to say it's creeps me out, I even wanted to finish game as soon as I see it first time.
I'm Fatebinder, I'm working for absolutly lawful guy, who have absolute spy on his disposal and I know I'm in scrutiny and have powerful enemies. The last thing I would say with somebody whose mind is unproven (not to mention "with witnesses"!) will be "hey, I'm combining a team to depose Overlord, join me".
 

Jean-Luc

General
43 Badges
Jan 22, 2014
1.997
1.237
  • Ancient Space
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Impire
  • King Arthur II
  • Majesty 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I still don´t know why the Bronze Brotherhood attacks me in the town after being granted access by their crazy leader at the bridge.

They're not attacking *you*. They want the town and, more importantly (to their nutjob leader), the mage helm.
 

demanvanwezel

General
84 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
2.313
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
I need to say it's creeps me out, I even wanted to finish game as soon as I see it first time.
I'm Fatebinder, I'm working for absolutly lawful guy, who have absolute spy on his disposal and I know I'm in scrutiny and have powerful enemies. The last thing I would say with somebody whose mind is unproven (not to mention "with witnesses"!) will be "hey, I'm combining a team to depose Overlord, join me".

I'm actually surprised it isn't one the charges levelled against you, I'm pretty sure just saying something like that is base for losing your head, nevermind doing it
but no, offer to bandage a up a guy so you can interrigate him more effectively? gain wrath, literally talking treason? nothing to see here
 

Tarlanc

Private
16 Badges
Jun 11, 2012
13
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Magicka
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings III
I haven't completed Act 2 yet, but from my experience so far I did encounter one very painful case of railroading.

Firstly, I chose to [Betray Alliance] and claim the first spire. The semantics irked me somewhat because I didn't feel that I was in any way 'allied' with the group I had chosen to lead the assault (happened to be Disfavored), it's more the case that they were the only ones to follow my lead while the others are in open rebellion. Still, the final outcome would have been the same; declaring that the conquest was mine by right would have enraged them anyway.

Next I went to Lethian's crossing, of which I was the governor during conquest. Here everything made sense: the Brigade is led by an insane leader but throughout the story there are plenty of splinter groups that are willing to listen to reason, so talking to them was an option and even though I had a fair bit of wrath to begin with I ended up being in their favour completely. Success.

Next I went to the Blade Grave, and here's where the railroading hit in full force. I was at war with both Disfavored and Chorus and I had found the clue in the Burning Library about how to resolve the Blade Grave Edict, so all I expected to have to do is walk up to the first Unbroken camp and loudly proclaim that I had a way to lift the Edict with a handshake and nobody having to die.
No such luck. The only conversation options I was given were to slaughter everyone in sight. Same again at every single encounter with the Unbroken, and of course the Disfavored too. What sense does it make to say 'I didn't come here to negotiate anyway' as my only option? This results in 5 maps (plus oldwall) of constant slaughter and virtually zero dialogue, with the exception of one small group of Sages, which is just exhausting. There's no narrative, no dialogue, just endless combat interspersed by a few bloody-minded taunts. It is also entirely unnecessary in terms of level design because I could have easily allied myself with the Unbroken and still had to fight all the Disfavored in those maps.
To then arrive at the end and be able to make the call on the heir just had me feeling very frustrated, I just kept thinking: as I have been trying to tell every single Unbroken ever since I set foot in these lands, all I need is a bloody signature!!!
It just feels like playing through a Kurosawa movie.

The clue from the Burning Library does state that 'someone might be interested in this', but I never figured out who that might be. Still, finding a lonesome keystone npc shouldn't be hte only way to approach this sensibly.
 

aono

Field Marshal
105 Badges
Aug 26, 2008
3.645
2.549
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
The clue from the Burning Library does state that 'someone might be interested in this', but I never figured out who that might be. Still, finding a lonesome keystone npc shouldn't be hte only way to approach this sensibly.
Well, I did Blade Grave before Burning Library, and I managed to came to such conclusion by high Lore.
 

Tarlanc

Private
16 Badges
Jun 11, 2012
13
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Magicka
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings III
Well, I did Blade Grave before Burning Library, and I managed to came to such conclusion by high Lore.
Yeah I only got the Lore option, I guess I never managed to find any use for the clue at all.
 

demanvanwezel

General
84 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
2.313
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
The clue from the Burning Library does state that 'someone might be interested in this', but I never figured out who that might be. Still, finding a lonesome keystone npc shouldn't be hte only way to approach this sensibly.

the clue is there for non-high lore characters to arrive at that end-conclusion

the problem is that apparantly regents can't give up their position, but a regent-mother can ban her child from the inheritance (apparantly one only becomes regent when one comes of age), anyway it's all skewed in legality, the point is that the regent couldn't not be the regent anymore and the child could
 

ringhloth

Field Marshal
128 Badges
Dec 7, 2011
3.474
2.198
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Ancient Space
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
You know, if a guy who killed everyone who rebelled against a guy, as I was employed by a guy who's rebelling against said guy, I'd probably assume he's going to kill me, too.
 

Tarlanc

Private
16 Badges
Jun 11, 2012
13
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Magicka
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings III
the clue is there for non-high lore characters to arrive at that end-conclusion

the problem is that apparantly regents can't give up their position, but a regent-mother can ban her child from the inheritance (apparantly one only becomes regent when one comes of age), anyway it's all skewed in legality, the point is that the regent couldn't not be the regent anymore and the child could
Ah, I see. That feels highly contrived, particularly considering the Tiers tradition of women being the sole inheritors of anything land-based, but ok, fair point. Thanks for pointing that out!
You know, if a guy who killed everyone who rebelled against a guy, as I was employed by a guy who's rebelling against said guy, I'd probably assume he's going to kill me, too.
And I can entirely understand that attitude on the NPC's behalf, but if the PC doesn't even get the option of attempting to mention in passing that there might be alternatives, or when every dialogue option assumes the PC's intent was to slaughter everything in sight anyway, it does feel like I'm being railroaded. I also had Sirin in the group; considering when you first enter Stalwart you're meeting with Agathon on his own, would it really have been that much effort to sing him into compliance for a little while? All you need is the next waypoint...
 

Togukawa

Private
Nov 15, 2016
20
16
I fully agree with the topic starter's assessment. I felt completely railroaded and never able to do the things that I wanted to do. I quit my disfavored playthrough when I had to kill the beastman cubs instead of being able to challenge the Prima. It made no sense whatsoever that I was not able to do that, but had to murder everybody. It feels like you have as much choice as when reading books, sure you can choose which book you decide to read, but once you're reading a specific book everything is going to happen as the author wants. I expected a bit more input in a videogame, especially one where the marketing tauts that your choices matter. Your actions definitely impact the world as promised, you just can't choose your actions yourself, barring very few instances. If I was railroaded into killing the baby I would have uninstalled the game right there.

In the independent path you also have to kill a lot of the people you meet. The good thing is that you can get through Lenthian and Azure without murdering everybody, so that's definitely a step up. On the downside, you have to murder both Ashe and the Voices and pretty much everyone from those factions.
I'd recommend the independent path, as it's the only one where you're not just a lackey for someone else when you're supposed to be independent. Sure you get your quests from a questgiver, but it's more things you need to do to become more powerful yourself rather than mindlessly contributing to the glory of someone else. It's the least frustrating path from a roleplay perspective.
 

demanvanwezel

General
84 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
2.313
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
I fully agree with the topic starter's assessment. I felt completely railroaded and never able to do the things that I wanted to do. I quit my disfavored playthrough when I had to kill the beastman cubs instead of being able to challenge the Prima. It made no sense whatsoever that I was not able to do that, but had to murder everybody. It feels like you have as much choice as when reading books, sure you can choose which book you decide to read, but once you're reading a specific book everything is going to happen as the author wants. I expected a bit more input in a videogame, especially one where the marketing tauts that your choices matter. Your actions definitely impact the world as promised, you just can't choose your actions yourself, barring very few instances. If I was railroaded into killing the baby I would have uninstalled the game right there.

In the independent path you also have to kill a lot of the people you meet. The good thing is that you can get through Lenthian and Azure without murdering everybody, so that's definitely a step up. On the downside, you have to murder both Ashe and the Voices and pretty much everyone from those factions.
I'd recommend the independent path, as it's the only one where you're not just a lackey for someone else when you're supposed to be independent. Sure you get your quests from a questgiver, but it's more things you need to do to become more powerful yourself rather than mindlessly contributing to the glory of someone else. It's the least frustrating path from a roleplay perspective.

there's also the rebel playthrough where you're the one giving the orders
 

Togukawa

Private
Nov 15, 2016
20
16
Yeah, but there you are shouting to everyone you meet "HEY GUISE, IMMA OVERTHROW THE OVERLORD, WANNA JOIN UP?" and the Tunon and Bleden Mark don't care at all. It's not as if you're something truly against Kyros' laws, such as offering to give some relief to a dying soldier, which does give you wrath from them.
So yeah, if you care about roleplaying, I'd recommend the independent path (betray the faction you allied with when taking the hall).
 

demanvanwezel

General
84 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
2.313
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
Yeah, but there you are shouting to everyone you meet "HEY GUISE, IMMA OVERTHROW THE OVERLORD, WANNA JOIN UP?" and the Tunon and Bleden Mark don't care at all. It's not as if you're something truly against Kyros' laws, such as offering to give some relief to a dying soldier, which does give you wrath from them.
So yeah, if you care about roleplaying, I'd recommend the independent path (betray the faction you allied with when taking the hall).

I choose to ignore that I say that, in my mind I'm saying something like "don't delay the inevitable, swear to me, tunon's court and kyros and you can rule yourself within the bounds of the law instead of under the chaos of the chorus or under the iron boot of the disfavored"

all in all, kyros's law is pretty damn lenient, rules I've seen

1) don't fight each other
2) protection of mages
3) protection of children!
4) don't get near the oldwalls
5) regulation of trade
6) don't take kyros's name in vain
7) the verdict of a fatebinder is absolute (yeah fatebinders can be corrupt but one who does so can quickly find himself in front of tunon's court himself)
 

Shinros

First Lieutenant
30 Badges
Jan 15, 2016
221
47
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Yeah, but there you are shouting to everyone you meet "HEY GUISE, IMMA OVERTHROW THE OVERLORD, WANNA JOIN UP?" and the Tunon and Bleden Mark don't care at all. It's not as if you're something truly against Kyros' laws, such as offering to give some relief to a dying soldier, which does give you wrath from them.
So yeah, if you care about roleplaying, I'd recommend the independent path (betray the faction you allied with when taking the hall).

Yup and you can easily break all the edicts I do think the quest giver for the independent path is still reporting to kyros. Since you going solo he notes that he agree with your choice to reward ashe's and nerats infertile antics with "justice raw and bloody".

You can even tell him you did what you did was about justice.

And technically you are handling stuff yourself instead of relying on the inept armies but you are still part of the court just fallen out of favor slightly due to Tunon wondering wth the were you thinking. The quest giver in the independant path says to be careful not to do something like that again.
 

aono

Field Marshal
105 Badges
Aug 26, 2008
3.645
2.549
  • Cities in Motion
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
there's also the rebel playthrough where you're the one giving the orders
Oh yeah. It looks such way:
Fatebinder (or [F]): I'M GIVING THE ORDERS!
Leader of rebels (or [T]): It's auful, but I believe you tyrany will be better that Kyros'. By the way, we need mages for our rebellion. Where do you going to go - Burning Library or Stone Sea?
[F]: Hmm... I believe I'm going to go for sages in Burining Library!
[T]: An exellent choice! I will wait your return here.

3) protection of children!
As I recall it's not Kyros, it's local Voices of Nerat's rule for Scarlet Chorus.
 

demanvanwezel

General
84 Badges
Mar 27, 2009
2.313
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
Oh yeah. It looks such way:
Fatebinder (or [F]): I'M GIVING THE ORDERS!
Leader of rebels (or [T]): It's auful, but I believe you tyrany will be better that Kyros'. By the way, we need mages for our rebellion. Where do you going to go - Burning Library or Stone Sea?
[F]: Hmm... I believe I'm going to go for sages in Burining Library!
[T]: An exellent choice! I will wait your return here.


As I recall it's not Kyros, it's local Voices of Nerat's rule for Scarlet Chorus.

nope, that specificly kyros's law

anyway it's better then joining either 2 archons, hey I want the leader of the unbound, but the unbound are under tunon's authority, do as I say!, okay