Accuracy is too high

[Kelthed]

I read a lot on these forums about this problem or that problem and I've come to realize that much of these are all due to the accuracy being way to high.

In TT everything was done using two six sided dice (2D6). There is a 2.77% chance of any pair of numbers coming up (1 in 36 possible combinations). Since there is only one combination of the dice that results in a "12" there is a 2.77% chance of rolling "Box Cars". An 11 can be rolled 2 different ways, die A has a 5 and die B has a 6 OR die A has a 6 and die B has a 5 so there is a 5.54% chance of rolling an 11 and cumulatively an 8.31% chance of rolling an 11 or more.

In BT you wanted to roll your target number or higher.

The to-hit score was calculated by first checking the range between you and your target with short range being a 2 medium 4 long 6 and extreme 8. This is the base number you must roll higher than on 2D6 in order to score a "hit". This was changed when total warfare came out to be 0/+2/+4 I think because a lot more additional modifiers were added.

To this base range number a ton of modifiers are added I won't go through them all but you can see the list at

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

In the end you'll come up with a number you must roll higher than, if memory serves a "6" was an easy shot 7 or 8 was typical and 9 or 10 take it if you have too.

A 6 is 72%
A 7 is 58%
An 8 is 41%
a 9 is 27%

OK, so having a higher hit ratio makes the game go faster, why is that bad?

Simple, tactics. Tactics is what this game is supposed to be about. It was originally billed as "A game of armored combat".

There were trade offs in the various weapon systems. Autocannons produced little heat, but were heavy large and had limited ammo. Lasers were small and light had "unlimited" ammo but produced a lot of heat. PPC hit hard had a long range but used a ton of heat and were unusable at very close range. Gauss, ER, Pulse, LB10X changed some of these all clan weapons did. The point being you had to pick and choose what to play and each choice came with benefits and drawbacks.

In the current system Heat is a killer, especially when you consider that 4 of the biomes make heat worse and many (most?) missions are in these hazardous biomes. Autocannons don't produce heat (to speak of) and since I never (rarely) run out of ammo why choose energy? An AC/20 used to be king of the battlefield, but was used sparingly because of a severely limited ammo capacity. Now I run a dragon with an AC/20m and 2 tons ammo and NEVER run out of ammo. In TT an alpha strike was rare (and why it was singled out as an alpha strike) but now running mostly AC/'s I pretty much alpha EVERY shot. I don't run PPC's on any of my Mechs because of the heat and only deploy my JagerMech on cold planets (though it's fully retired now). My current lance?

Highlander 732B
Armor:1400 Move 4/6/4
RA -Gauss
RT - LLaser++ (Tried a PPC, too hot)
LT - LRM20++

Highlander 733P
Armor: 1720 Move 3/5/3
RT - LLaser ++
RT - LLaser ++
LT - LRM/20+

Orion ONV-1 (I have 2 of these)
Armor: 1080 Move 4/6/2
RA - LLaser
RT - AC/20

Ideally I'd run a bunch of AC/10's (which I did during the medium stage) but I don't have the ballistic hard points sooo... I'm at Week 88 day 2. Dekker is the only original pilot KIA.

One last point, until CASE came into the game, an ammo explosion KILLED a mech. None of my mechs EVER mounted MG's because the damage they did (1) was insignificiant and the ammo they carried (200 shots) would kill most mechs if it exploded. For those of you who don't know, CASE "Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment," is designed so that when you have an ammo explosion it directs the blast out the back of the mech. You lose the location where the explosion occurred but not the adjoining location a lost torso still loses the adjoining arm. Damage is supposed to transfer inward so once the right arm is blown off any excess damage transfers to the right torso and when the right torso is blown off excess damage transfers to the center torso and when it's gone the mech is destroyed. When an ammo explosion occurs all damage that the ammo represents is take by the exploding mech. So, if you had a MG ammo in your right torso and I blow through the RT armor and get an ammo crit, that's 200 points of damage (in TT, in this game it'd be 600 as each shot does 3 points) that would finish off the RT structure 21 points and the remaining 179 points would transfer to the CT where unless it was an assault mech it's dead. And even if it was an assault mech it's in a world of hurt with multiple internal crits engine hits gyro gone etc...

TL/DR: Accuracy makes ammo good, heat makes energy bad

 

[Lawler]

I think you’d find that playing the classic game with a gunnery 0/piloting 0 character, you’d never run out of ammo either. Shots made at long range only need a 4 to hit in that case. 5 if you moved and 6 or 7 on anything moving at any kind of combat speed. Add terrain and such and you could maybe get up to the 10s and 11s to hit, but the shot is definitely still possible.

Now dial that back to short range. You’re back to hitting on 5 to 7 again even with movement and terrain.

Now fast forward to the game we have now. Your visual range is only 300m or so. That’s 10 hexes. Sure that’s long range for an AC/20, but there are dozens of other weapons that this falls into medium range at most. It’s barely out of penalty range for LRMs.

So what I’m saying is, it’s not the gunnery skill and accuracy that’s the issue. It’s that almost all engagements are made within the span of a football field.

 

[AeusDeif]

So what I’m saying is, it’s not the gunnery skill and accuracy that’s the issue. It’s that almost all engagements are made within the span of a football field.

I have to say, in the late game, shots did feel super accurate, but come to think of it, it was often legging a downed mech at near point blank range. So perhaps this is why. Longer range engagements could be fostered by allied recon, by sensor towers, orbital surveillance, or by better/more available/inbuilt rangefinder type equipment.

 

[Havamal]

I play this game at long to medium range. Short range only situationally, but when I do, I bring a hammer.... YMMV

 

[Lawler]

I play this game at long to medium range. Short range only situationally, but when I do, I bring a hammer.... YMMV

I prefer to play at range, myself.

The issue is not that you can reach out and touch things “at range”. It’s that the range is artificially constrained by what can only be described as a form of galactic near sightedness. Barring specialized equipment, visual range is limited to 300m. You can extend that dramatically with good positioning within your lance, but you never had to do this in TT without using some sort of special scenario rule. You could launch slugs from your AC/2 all they way out to its’ range limit of 24 hexes. That’s over 700m. More than double what our pilots can see even on planet bowling ball. But terrain also blocked line of sight more reliably in TT. It seems I can see though any thickness of forest as long as my target is within 300m currently.

And realistically, most shooters today train out to distances of 700m or more on a regular basis. It’s easily within the range of standard human vision. Especially when your target is also 10+ meters in size.

 

[Havamal]

I prefer to play at range, myself.

The issue is not that you can reach out and touch things “at range”. It’s that the range is artificially constrained by what can only be described as a form of galactic near sightedness. Barring specialized equipment, visual range is limited to 300m. You can extend that dramatically with good positioning within your lance, but you never had to do this in TT without using some sort of special scenario rule. You could launch slugs from your AC/2 all they way out to its’ range limit of 24 hexes. That’s over 700m. More than double what our pilots can see even on planet bowling ball. But terrain also blocked line of sight more reliably in TT. It seems I can see though any thickness of forest as long as my target is within 300m currently.

And realistically, most shooters today train out to distances of 700m or more on a regular basis. It’s easily within the range of standard human vision. Especially when your target is also 10+ meters in size.

"The issue" is only an issue to those who consider it so.
If we overtly include tactical spotting in our methodology then ranges are extended as needed...

Again, YMMV.

 

[Lawler]

And again, that why I think the artificial range limitation is why we’re seeing such high shot percentages. Based on these forums (sample size is low, I get that), people aren’t using light mechs and have very limited use of mediums towards the end of the campaign. So it can sometimes be difficult to get your lance in position to make those long shots. But you rarely have to because the alphas at visual range are so easy to make that most opposition simply vaporizes and you trundle towards your objective.

I understand what you’re saying and I agree 100%, but my argument stands for this particular thread. It’s not the ease of the shot, it’s that the game artificially places most engagements at close range where gunnery skill is the most prominent (few to zero modifiers).

 

[Havamal]

And again, that why I think the artificial range limitation is why we’re seeing such high shot percentages. Based on these forums (sample size is low, I get that), people aren’t using light mechs and have very limited use of mediums towards the end of the campaign. So it can sometimes be difficult to get your lance in position to make those long shots. But you rarely have to because the alphas at visual range are so easy to make that most opposition simply vaporizes and you trundle towards your objective.

I understand what you’re saying and I agree 100%, but my argument stands for this particular thread. It’s not the ease of the shot, it’s that the game artificially places most engagements at close range where gunnery skill is the most prominent (few to zero modifiers).

Who mentioned light mechs? Any line of sight or sensor lock from any Lance mate is shared, which is pretty quickly elementary.
Gunnery(despite it's usefulness) is the least important skill of those available for my nonbrawling mechwarriors beyond a certain threshold.

 

[Lawler]

By the same token, who mentioned target locks?

And you’ve proven my point actually. Gunnery is probably one of the least important pilot skills because of the range limits. Which is counter to the way classic BT works. But elevated gunnery skills make the close encounters almost trivial because you only ever miss when RNGesus decides he’s had enough of your tomfoolery and wants to keep you humble.

And yes, I understand everyone has squadsight, but that does nothing to change the fact that you’re never going to line up those long shots with all your mechs moving along at the same speed alongside one another.

Now *I* don’t do this, and I’m fairly certain *you* don’t do this either. But the lack of vision range at play here reinforces a “walking wall” play style at the moment. You grab the 4 heaviest mechs you’ve got and just march side by side towards your goal, vaporizing anything you encounter with focused alphas. Maybe you advance one flank to get a visual on that LRM carrier once in a while, but that’s the only time your lance will see that line of sight extension adequately used.

 

[Havamal]

IMHO Suppositional "Arguments standing", and "Points proven" are conversational modes indicative only of emphasis on our pre-existing biased opinions.
Let's all just agree to state our own cases as we are, even despite potential "fair disagreement ", friendly like- without what might inadvertently to uninformed spectators appear to be sophist modes that sway from phrasing alone rather than empiricism. Especially considering the anecdotal nature of discussion.

Gunnery is useful, but even more so for short range brawlers who are certain at that range to "feel it" if they don't succeed in every initial attempt as opposed to ranged attackers who are more elusive by tactical design and to whom additional elusiveness or mitigating can mean prolonged engagement regardless of hard count hit rate .

Range limits as outlined above are easily overcome by those accustomed, and thus a non factor(on average only!) to players who have been introduced to the multiple parallel available methods.
Though I agree 100% that those "Playing the last game/fighting the last war" may require some minor sharing/shepherding in these matters initially upon introduction to a new mechanic functioning as intended. And it's great that so many are open and available to do so if needed.

 

[Lawler]

I agree in that we’ll have to agree to disagree, I suppose. While I don’t find it particularly troublesome from my own play experience having played the beta extensively, I can certainly see it being a point of contention as this thread has been created with just that supposition.

I also agree that these players should be shepherded towards playing to the existing mechanics where applicable, but I’ve also found explaining the mechanics at play also serves to be a functional and often thought provoking educational tool. It is in this capacity that I’ve posted on this thread. Not to philosophize on how things should be, but rather to focus the OPs attention on what his actual issue at hand may be such that he can refine his argument.

And when all else fails, mod it till it breaks!

 

[Kelthed]

I will concede that the issue may be that ranges are too short, thus causing an artificial spike in accuracy. The game in it's current iteration certainly favors assault mechs brawling at close range. Personally I prefer to play mediums with a heavy here and there at long ranges. I get what you're saying using a scout to sensor lock and then you have full range of you weapons, however, I shouldn't HAVE to do that and in doing do I lose 25% of my combat effectiveness. Sensor lock is suppose to be used to enable LRM's to shoot over obstacles. Not so that an AC/2 can shoot at the range it was designed to shoot at. In the U.S. Army you are required to qualify with your M16 at 300 meters. And an AC/2 has the same range without sophisticated electronics? Another application of sensor lock in TT was range to hit modifier was calculated from the spotting mech, not the firing mech (firing mech still had to be within the weapons range limit). This is how modern day OH58D and Apache helicopters work.

I also would love to extend the ranges out enlarge the maps by a factor of four at least and make the battle last longer. This run up and alpha the other guy is fun, but not the same flavor as TT BattleTech. Also, having two lances would allow for a light scout lance and a heavy attack lance working in conjunction. With only one lance loosing one mech for scouting and locking is too much firepower off the battlefield

 

[Len Darker]

Maybe have an option in the gameplay settings for:

- own movement to hit penalties as in the TT game
- a toggle to remove or not remove evasion charges on getting hit

as with move penalties on, evasion should balance this out a bit more.

It will draw fights out more, but will also make it more important to balance offense vs. defense.

 

[Lawler]

Maybe have an option in the gameplay settings for:

- own movement to hit penalties as in the TT game
- a toggle to remove or not remove evasion charges on getting hit

as with move penalties on, evasion should balance this out a bit more.

It will draw fights out more, but will also make it more important to balance offense vs. defense.

The classic movement penalties already seem to be in play here, at least in a temporary fasion, with the evasion chevrons. There’s also a mech size modifier that wasn’t in the rules at all. It really is just that gunner 10 is so freakin huge and range of vision is so short.

There are mods out there that increase vision and sensor ranges already but they really just modify a few kind of code in the simgameconstants.json file. Incidentally, this was a point of contention for a lot of beta players as well. Many of them left sensors where they were at and increased vision range to about 6 or 700. Some did both at 700, but I prefer leaving sensors low as is fits with the lore of the decaying tech. There are other mods which add more evasion chevrons for everyone and others that decrease the hit bonus from gunnery. All are 1 or 2 line .jeon edits to my knowledge.

 

[Len Darker]

Evasion takes care of target movement modifiers. What I mean is one's own movement modifiers (+1 for walk, +2 for run, etc.) on top of that.

 

[Lawler]

Evasion takes care of target movement modifiers. What I mean is one's own movement modifiers (+1 for walk, +2 for run, etc.) on top of that.

Oh, I see. Yeah, I noticed they did away with those for whatever reason, too. Kind of a shame because it made pulse weapons worth taking on jump mechs with kangaroo pilots. Currently, pulse lasers are wasted tonnage compared to just boating mediums (assuming you’ve modded the files to even be able to get them in the first place).

 

[AugurJMD]

One last point, until CASE came into the game, an ammo explosion KILLED a mech.

Depends on remaining ammo left as to the damage done internally on a critical. DMG = #Rounds x ShotDMG. At least per TT "rules".

File under "just saying..." (lol?)

 

[Lawler]

Depends on remaining ammo left as to the damage done internally on a critical. DMG = #Rounds x ShotDMG. At least per TT "rules".

File under "just saying..." (lol?)

I’m pretty sure CASE is already a thing free on al mechs. I’m not seeing any damage transfer for an ammo explosion regardless of how much ammo is left. I don’t think the gauss rifle explodes either. But I don’t remember the pilot taking feedback damage on side torso destruction either, so there’s that.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

I've seen an ammo explosion in an arm apparently destroy an entire light mech a few times in this game, so not sure if that damage is carrying over or not.

~~~~

On the broader topic, right now the accuracy doesn't seem that off, but as the mechs get heavier and build up less evasion, while the Gunnery of enemy AI mechs goes up, it's probably going to get to a point where it not much misses.

I do think that the range on most engagements feels pretty compressed.


Also, it feels like ACs miss more than their listed hit % on shots would indicate... at least when I'm firing them. AI mechs don't seem to miss even if they're heavy.