Accompanying with the new dev, ask a language problem

[MathyM]

This is interesting. It's Nepos in Latin but the French was like "Let's confuse our people by using ph." Thanks for the lesson.

My favorite example is "trophy".

It's from Greek "τρόπαιον", which never had a "phi"/φ in it. It came to Latin as "tropaeum", where it later became "trophaeum", and we now know it as "trophy".

It does have a Greek origin, so the rule of thumb works for it, but the Greeks didn't give its now familiar "f" ("ph") sound, since it never had a phi over there. The Romans did. And it was through Latin that it arrived in English.

 

[Iosue Yu]

Necrophage means litteraly Corpse eaters, its not only chinees localization, its just a name for the origin, that seems to be translated accurately (tho i believe names should be never translated, and always stays original).
But in a sense they do feed on corpses, but not litteraly, they are growing through death of other species, very simmilar to necromorph from "alien" series.

According to the Wikipedia, what Necrophage is being used now for biology is:

"Necrophages are organisms that obtain nutrients by consuming decomposing dead animal biomass.[1] The term derives from Greek nekros, meaning 'dead', and phagein, meaning 'to eat'."

Necrophage refers to some sort of mushrooms. Thanatophage refers to, mostly worms, feeding off nutrients from decomposing plant biomass. Detritivore are some other worms feeding off stuff that are decomposing including dead and fecal materials.

So, no. Necrophage doesn't literally mean corpse eaters. They are more on the side of decomposing biomass.

Corpse eaters are called scavengers. We don't have a word to literally mean corpse eater.

 

[Iosue Yu]

My favorite example is "trophy".

It's from Greek "τρόπαιον", which never had a "phi"/φ in it. It came to Latin as "tropaeum", where it later became "trophaeum", and we now know it as "trophy".

It does have a Greek origin, so the rule of thumb works for it, but the Greeks didn't give its now familiar "f" ("ph") sound, since it never had a phi over there. The Romans did. And it was through Latin that it arrived in English.

I feel like these stuff came from Medieval Latin and its share of hypercorrection. There are a few words the Medieval clergy changed because they believed it was the original form. So we also have some cases of ae -> e -> oe, like the word "Caelum" ("Sky") becoming "Coelum" in some books.

 

[jumbi]

That’s not what I meant. I just added that words with “ph” with them MAY have a Latin origin rather than a Greek one, because the French substituted P for PH in many words, a prime example being “nephew”, which is absolutely a word derived from Latin, but the “ph” could throw you off.

On dit "neveu" pas "nepeu" The p(h) is an (re-)addition made somewhere between middle English (which retained the French v) and modern English. The French shift was to v in this case

 

[Bohaska]

That time when a thread became a bunch of linguists discussing the differences between Greek and Latin.

 

[MathyM]

That time when a thread became a bunch of linguists discussing the differences between Greek and Latin.

I think OP is the only one who speaks Chinese here, so of course that once the main question had been answered, the thread would be derailed to something most of us can understand.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I think OP is the only one who speaks Chinese here, so of course that once the main question had been answered, the thread would be derailed to something most of us can understand.

I am from Hong Kong as well. Just OP hasn't really quoted the corresponding Chinese words that I can comment on.

 

[Bohaska]

I am from Hong Kong as well. Just OP hasn't really quoted the corresponding Chinese words that I can comment on.

Necrophage: 食尸文化 (literally translated as Corpse culture)
Accompanied description: 这一文明演化出了一种异养于其他智慧生命形态的寄生体。当它在银河中不断蔓延时，其他的物种或是被视作侍徒而带入他们的行列，要么就成为延续他们增殖意志的食物。(Google translate translates this to "This civilization has evolved a parasite that is heterotrophic to other intelligent life forms (as in, eat other sapient beings). As it continues to spread in the galaxy, other species are either brought into their ranks as servants, or become food that continues their will to proliferate."

 

[Iosue Yu]

Necrophage: 食尸文化 (literally translated as Corpse culture)
Accompanied description: 这一文明演化出了一种异养于其他智慧生命形态的寄生体。当它在银河中不断蔓延时，其他的物种或是被视作侍徒而带入他们的行列，要么就成为延续他们增殖意志的食物。(Google translate translates this to "This civilization has evolved a parasite that is heterotrophic to other intelligent life forms (as in, eat other sapient beings). As it continues to spread in the galaxy, other species are either brought into their ranks as servants, or become food that continues their will to proliferate."

Simplified Chinese isn't something I like reading. Anyway.

食屍文化 literally means "Corpse eating culture". Seeing how it's the same word used for "Ghouls" in most works, I'd say this is good.

這一文明演化出了一種異養於其他智慧生命形態的寄生體。 當它在銀河中不斷蔓延時，其他的物種或是被視作侍徒而帶入他們的行列，要麼就成為延續他們增殖意志的食物。

This civilisation has evolved to become different to other intelligent lives, being parasitic. When it spreads in the Galaxy, other Species would be viewed as servants and to be brought into their ranks, or to become food for continuing their expanding will.

I'd say this is also good. It's just... "parasitic" seems to be an official setting.

 

[Kommunist Fried Chicken]

The term "necrophage" is in a bit of an odd spot. Its literal meaning is not immediately apparent to the vast majority of English speakers (native or no), but necro- is common enough that most will see the word and associate it with death. Gamers are more likely to recognize it from other games like Witcher 3 and Endless Legend as well. Since only people with an interest in either biology or etymology (or who speak Greek) are likely to notice or care, necrophage serves as a word that is both somewhat accurate (association with death) and somewhat familiar. Only pedants (like myself) are likely to be bothered.

Since the translators opted to actually translate the term in the Mandarin localization, they should have considered their choice more carefully so as not to confuse people playing the game in Mandarin.

Edit:



You are correct that the use of necro- will create an immediate relationship between necroids and necrophages (and the concept of death) in the minds of English speakers and likely those of other European languages as well, though this doesn't have much to do with Latin since the term is Greek and English is a Germanic language, not a Romance one.

And that's why I try to find a "better" meaning of this, I want to fix it. The relation like necroids and necrophages is what I wanna to reach. “necrophage” in english looks like a kind of coinage? Maybe I need to look up classical Chinese dictionary to find some rare word? At least for alphabetic language, it's easier to make a new word.
Obviously, there is no shortage of pedants in this thread(maybe even for paradox fans?)

Well, I've supposed all languages in Euro can be called Latin family, it seems that it should be call "Indo-European"?

I think OP is the only one who speaks Chinese here, so of course that once the main question had been answered, the thread would be derailed to something most of us can understand.

And unlike you, I know little about the difference between Latin and Greek, english is hard enough for me.

Simplified Chinese isn't something I like reading. Anyway.

食屍文化 literally means "Corpse eating culture". Seeing how it's the same word used for "Ghouls" in most works, I'd say this is good.

這一文明演化出了一種異養於其他智慧生命形態的寄生體。 當它在銀河中不斷蔓延時，其他的物種或是被視作侍徒而帶入他們的行列，要麼就成為延續他們增殖意志的食物。

This civilisation has evolved to become different to other intelligent lives, being parasitic. When it spreads in the Galaxy, other Species would be viewed as servants and to be brought into their ranks, or to become food for continuing their expanding will.

I'd say this is also good. It's just... "parasitic" seems to be an official setting.

Well, in the dimension of meaning, it's good, but this translation shows no relation to Necroids("死灵" in Chinese), I don't think it's good in this dimension. And "parasitic" has some difference with "corpse eater".

---

Guys, thanks for all your answers, I seldom visit the forum except reading the latest dev. So sorry for my late reply.

 

[Iosue Yu]

And that's why I try to find a "better" meaning of this, I want to fix it. The relation like necroids and necrophages is what I wanna to reach. “necrophage” in english looks like a kind of coinage? Maybe I need to look up classical Chinese dictionary to find some rare word? At least for alphabetic language, it's easier to make a new word.
Obviously, there is no shortage of pedants in this thread(maybe even for paradox fans?)

Well, I've supposed all languages in Euro can be called Latin family, it seems that it should be call "Indo-European"?


And unlike you, I know little about the difference between Latin and Greek, english is hard enough for me.


Well, in the dimension of meaning, it's good, but this translation shows no relation to Necroids("死灵" in Chinese), I don't think it's good in this dimension. And "parasitic" has some difference with "corpse eater".

---

Guys, thanks for all your answers, I seldom visit the forum except reading the latest dev. So sorry for my late reply.

I guess the only culturally intuitive word we have would be 僵屍 for the Necroids. That can't be helped. It is a cultural issue.

 

[grommile]

Well, I've supposed all languages in Euro can be called Latin family, it seems that it should be call "Indo-European"?

Indo-European is the (large) majority language family of Europe, but languages such as Finnish, Hungarian, Maltese, Basque, Tatar, and Adyghe are not part of it.

Greek and Latin are in different European branches (Hellenic and Italic, respectively) of IE. Roman imperialism and Christian evangelism led to both of them being heavily used to provide technical and religious terminology across Europe.

 

[Ezumiyr]

I find it quite weird in what way this discussion evolved.
Necrophage does mean "eater of dead things". Those dead things can be corpses, but not necessarily.
One of the issues here is that english and many other languages only have one way to interpret compound nouns, and english in particular has very tight rules when it comes to it, so it's hard to create a word that means "eaters of living things that look like the dead". We would get something like "Biophago-necroids".

But really, the thing is that "necrophage" should be interpreted as "the ones that are dead and eat", but english doesn't allow that kind of interpretation (because it doesn't have bahuvrihi compounds), and never uses necro- or thanato- at the end of words. What english does have is various words for mythical (un)dead beings who eat the living to survive: vampires, ghouls, zombies etc. Maybe it would be better to pick one of them. Necroids could stay necroids, and Necrophages could become something like Vampiroid or Space Ghouls, or ideally a more creative word.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I find it quite weird in what way this discussion evolved.
Necrophage does mean "eater of dead things". Those dead things can be corpses, but not necessarily.
One of the issues here is that english and many other languages only have one way to interpret compound nouns, and english in particular has very tight rules when it comes to it, so it's hard to create a word that means "eaters of living things that look like the dead". We would get something like "Biophago-necroids".

But really, the thing is that "necrophage" should be interpreted as "the ones that are dead and eat", but english doesn't allow that kind of interpretation (because it doesn't have bahuvrihi compounds), and never uses necro- or thanato- at the end of words. What english does have is various words for mythical (un)dead beings who eat the living to survive: vampires, ghouls, zombies etc. Maybe it would be better to pick one of them. Necroids could stay necroids, and Necrophages could become something like Vampiroid or Space Ghouls, or ideally a more creative word.

Necrophage cannot be interpreted as anything other than eaters of dead things. The Necr- prefix, the -o- interfix and the -phage suffix have determined that the Greek rules of compounding nouns are applied and nothing else.

Unless you are trying to invent even newer words with arbitrary meanings. When things become arbitrary, you can mean whatever you want it to mean without making sense. Just call it Jeff or Bob and call it a day.