Accepted culture in "Common Sense"

[CzokletMuss]

With the ability to incread level of development (LoD) in a province you have now the ability to easily make cultures accepted. How? Well, for instance in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since EU4 release the Lithuanian culture is not accepted. With 1.12 patch you can easily make them accepted by investing only in provinces with said culture until it reaches the 20% threshold (or less if you have Humanism or other modifiers).

This applies to every culture and every country so I'm wondering whether we will see some changes to accepted culture, because right now AFAIK there's nothing stopping you from doing what I described above. The question is whether this is WAD or not.

 

[yerm]

I would love if you could "culture accept" rather than culture convert, an entire culture, much the way you might annex a vassal.

Rather than committing wanton acts of genocide on a provincial population because your monarch is too diplomatic and you ran out of things to do, why not attempt to instead make said culture a part of your imperial structure?

So, for instance, current culture conversion involves actually making the populace part of your own, and examples might be something like a knightly order, or certain Russian moves, or various things I can't discuss on the forums. The end result in game (and in these rather unpleasant RL examples) is that the population is no longer X culture; it is now entirely different and replaced.

Let's instead keep the culture and not annihilate the unique identity of the province, but instead simply get it made a part of the national identity. Examples are things like this are actually far more prevalent in history and also far more palatable to the conscience, such as nationalizing language, or expanding government roles, or incorporating ethnicities, etc. Sweden's treatment of Finland, for instance, would involve efforts to get them "accepted" as part of the greater Swedish kingdom's system, but not actually make them literally Swedish. France did not annihilate the various French cultural subsets, it created a broader French cultural establishment.

This should be relatively simple to work out. Costs should fluctuate based on the size of the culture, size of the culture within your empire, percentage of your empire being that culture, and discounts for things like Humanism or being Poland. Much better use of dip, and much more "fun" and ethical to boot, than knocking cultures into your own the current way, or flooding off-culture land with swamp drainage and breeding programs to get them big enough to feel important.

 

[jebates]

It seems like a no-brainer fix to have us pay 100 bird mana to accept a culture instead of having thresholds. Maybe you have to have a province of the culture with no revolt risk to initially accept, and a limit to how many you can have accepted at one time. I'd also love a culture interaction interface similar to the vassal interface we're getting. Maybe Ottomans get events to favor Albanian and encourage its spread like they historically did at the risk of making other cultures angry?

 

[grommile]

It seems like a no-brainer fix to have us pay 100 bird mana to accept a culture instead of having thresholds.

It also seems like a no-brainer to pay 100 DIP to accept an entire culture instead of 25 DIP per BT to convert it.

 

[Issac1709]

It also seems like a no-brainer to pay 100 DIP to accept an entire culture instead of 25 DIP per BT to convert it.

Maybe instead have it semi-accepted (like a cultural union) but it only costs 15 (number can be adjusted for balance) dip per basetax or something like that

 

[CzokletMuss]

I would like to see Wiz' comment on this, since if the culture acceptance works as I think it will in 1.12, it seems to be rather unbalanced.

 

[LikeNothing]

The current design logic is that if something requires a ton of Monarch Points, then it is justified. Monarch Points is Love; Monarch Points is Life.

So yes, probably WAD.

 

[tobias.mb]

Well I agree, that the culture system needs reworking. But "easily make cultures accepted" might be a stretch. Sure a Humanist Commonwealth (with national idea -15% culture acceptance on top of it) will get Lithuanian accepted easily. But Lithuanian isn't that far away from beeing accepted anyways.
Try getting Saxon accepted. (I usually take Neumark from the Teutons in the first war). That's probably not going to work.
Also; it kind of makes sense, that the people will eventually like you better if you invest in their provinces.

I would love if you could "culture accept" rather than culture convert, an entire culture, much the way you might annex a vassal.

I like this idea. Maybe with some modifications though. For example cost of integrating a culture could be 15 mana / development for the entire culture (maybe cheaper if it is a tolerated = yellow culture), and not just what you own. That way it is a good idea to "integrate" a culture you control, and expel the ones you don't
And it shouldn't be allowed to integrate a culture while the primary nation still exists.

 

[Parapluman]

Is the 20% cultural acceptance threshold still dependent on basetax or is it all development now?

 

[RobRoy3]

...if the culture acceptance works as I think it will in 1.12, it seems to be rather unbalanced.

Be nice to get some clarification, but assuming you're correct regarding how it works, I just don't see the problem?

Why is it a bad thing to be able to focus your development such that you accelerate a culture's rise to "accepted"? That sounds like a nice feature, not a problem. You could already prioritize your province acquisition to try to get cultures accepted, previously. And it seems like you'll likely still have to worry about the culture loss threshold.

So I'm missing how this can be a big balance problem?

Is the 20% cultural acceptance threshold still dependent on basetax or is it all development now?

I'm curious about that, as well.

 

[zdlugasz]

Is the 20% cultural acceptance threshold still dependent on basetax or is it all development now?

My "guess" is overall development, based on Wiz's wording that development replaces base tax in one of threads, but I might be wrong.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

I'd actually love to see population in percentages like it is in Victoria II, alas, I don't think such a change is possible in EU4 (they do use the same engine, so there's hope). This way you could actually see either the population slowly "converting" or set some kind of chain event to make them accepted.

 

[Wizzington]

I see no problem with this.

 

[Lightning Fast]

This may be a bit of a stretch, but what if accepted culture were done with a system like autonomy (or made into a factor that affects autonomy)? Depending on whether you're above or below a certain threshold, it goes up or goes down overtime, with the threshold behind dependent on:

• If you choose to lower manually (possibly temporarily, probably costing a small amount of dipo-points)
• What percentage of development this culture represents in your country (same as the old system)
• If the culture is in your culture group or not
• National decisions (e.g. slavery could increase it, abolishment of slavery/serfdom could decrease it)
• Historical events (e.g. Great Britain's threshold for Irish culture goes up or down depending on how they choose to treat the inhabitants of the island, Poland can gain greater acceptance for Lithuanian culture by aiding in their plague, Ottomans gain greater Greek acceptance for letting their patriarch stay or lower for kicking them out)

"Acceptance" (or reverse it and make it "ethnic tension") could be an autonomy-like stat for cultural integration that's specific to every culture, whereas the "Accepted Culture Threshold" would be an overall statistic for your entire country, a generalized "bar" for how kind your country is to foreigners. It would be lower for countries like Poland and the Ottomans, or those with Humanism. Cultural unions would automatically get 100% acceptance for all members of their culture group, regardless of whether or not said cultures are currently above the threshold. This system would also mean that cultures with deep connections to a nation's identity, such as Lithuanian for the Commonwealth and Prussian for Kurland, never stop being accepted: simply give said countries a modifier that fixes their acceptance of these cultures at 100%.

For example, if I'm the Ottomans at the start of the game and I have Bulgarian as a certain percentage of my empire's development sufficient to bring them up to my cultural acceptance threshold, my "acceptance" for Bulgarians goes up overtime. The further above the threshold it his, the faster my acceptance goes up. As acceptance comes closer and closer to 100%, all Bulgarian provinces start to lose their penalty for being of a different culture. When they reach 100% acceptance, they provide the same benefits as my primary culture, and perhaps an extra bonus such as nationalist rebels no longer spawning in those provinces, or better yet, events reflecting the cultural revolutions that went on even in non-sovereign nations, such as the

That way, you won't conquer Serbia and Hungary and somehow develop an instantaneous dislike of Bulgarians. Overtime, sure, the Bulgarians might start to feel disconnected from the Turkish ruling class as their overall percentage of development decreases and falls below the accepted culture threshold, but they won't suddenly do 33% less work. Ethnic tension is something that builds gradually based on what goes on in a country and its policies, as opposed to a universal decree that because we have colonized Siberia, people are no longer aloud to speak Lithuanian in our high halls. If an Ethnic Tension stat was incorporated into autonomy, we could even keep the old system of cultural conversion... because no matter how hard I try, Latvian will probably never be an accepted culture. Sorry, Latvians.

 

[GothicEmperor]

I see no problem with this.

Like mentioned above, will it also be determined based on development rather than just base tax?

 

[WeissRaben]

Honestly? If a certain culture becomes richer, to the point of being an important percentage of the country's development, I can't see why it shouldn't become accepted.

 

[Haccoude]

People against this are basically saying that if a culture is being prosperous with resources that could have been used on the rest of country, it shouldn't feel like it is accepted? Depending on the size of a country, even 10% of all base tax can be quite a lot, why should it feel non accepted in a country that is that dedicated to its prosperity?

 

[Krajzen]

Honestly? If a certain culture becomes richer, to the point of being an important percentage of the country's development, I can't see why it shouldn't become accepted.

Say that to Bismarck, his German empire and 'acceptance' of Polish culture in this empire

 

[WeissRaben]

Say that to Bismarck, his German empire and 'acceptance' of Polish culture in this empire

Well, the Polish never got to 20% of the German Empire's basetax.

 

[EMT0]

I think the best solution is a bastardization of yerm's idea with what's currently there.

Cultural acceptance as it currently exists continues to exist, but instead of actually accepting a culture, it only gives a modifier that halves the cost of doing what yerm proposes; pay diplo in order to integrate a culture as accepted.