Absurd war score: make enemy weaker and your war score get lower

[iosys2]

It appended in a war I’m Venice I fabricated a claim in Lika, owned by Hungary.
I DoW Hungary, CB “Get Lika”. Milan and Tuscany join Hungary. Hungary war leader.
Ferrara, corfu joined Venice

- ) Hungary occupies my Venice’s Dalmatia

+ ) Venice wipes out the ludicrous Hungarian fleet.
+ ) Venice destroys Tuscany army
+ ) Venice destroys Milan Army
+ ) Venice occupies all 3 provinces of Tuscany
+ ) Venice occupies all 2 provinces of Milan

At this point the Venice War score is quite positive Venive has +32; Hungary position is not the best we all agree.
At this point
Venice makes peace with Tuscany annexing Pisa and Romagna and got more than 100 ducats
Venice makes peace with Tuscany annexing Lombard and got more than 100 ducats

Normaly we can suppose that now Venice is much stronger: the West front is comply won, filty rich to hire new mercenary, the whole army still in shape, all vassals still with a supporting army.
AND YET the war score fall to -16% !!!!!!!!!!
Why Hungary occupies Dalmatia and Venice now own but not occupies.
Of course after barely 1 year, Hungary has lost the army, Dalmatia and Lika, while other 2 provinces are now under siege.

I was rather happy with the new acquired Italian provinces, I could have live Lika for the moment to Hungary and make peace all at once. Instead this idiotic War score force me still 1 year of war and lose some manpower while Hungary lost everything it could have saved, just accepting a mild peace request.

 

[Overlord123]

You lost the warscore from occupying the countries you made peace with, in the war screen hover over the warscore to see what contributes to it.

 

[Blood4u]

Maybe because you didn't focus on your casus beli? Your declaration of war was to gain Lika .It's one's job to own the WarGoal in order to achieve victory.You can't just declare war to conquer something and expect warscore if you don't conquer it.

 

[mozgriken]

The warscore you had prior to peacing out Tusc and Milan (+32) is due to having occupied their land. If you had peaced out Hungary then, you would have got Lika plus maybe a bit more. Choosing to separately peace out their allies effectively gives up your advantage which is leveraged to Hungary via their alliances. Obviously when you peaced out Hungary's allies, you didn't have your wargoal - Lika - occupied. Otherwise, the warscore would have never been in the negs.

 

[gall]

He's point is that relative strength of both sides should be the most important factor for AI in judging peace offer. Yeah, if that would be case Prussia would never rise to power. From point of view of Hungary it might be logical to take white peace, but not from point of view of your enemies.
Didn't occupied provinces rise your WE for a bit longer? Also, Hungarian could have better position to fight you, while defending occupied provinces. They still could retreat to their own provinces and fight a while longer (more strategical depth), while you siege your provinces. They weakened you more, what was the price for eating their allies (they also have more times to recover, before you finish them).
EDIT: Fact that he used "wrong" casus belli is reflected by AE gain and rules to warcore cost for allies of CB target, it is not something he mention as badly designed.

 

[haltabush]

Venice makes peace with Tuscany annexing Pisa and Romagna and got more than 100 ducats
Venice makes peace with Tuscany annexing Lombard and got more than 100 ducats

Lombardy, Pisa, Romagna and Lika in a war... You'll have a quite bad coalition soon

 

[ChildeR]

The warscore you had prior to peacing out Tusc and Milan (+32) is due to having occupied their land. If you had peaced out Hungary then, you would have got Lika plus maybe a bit more. Choosing to separately peace out their allies effectively gives up your advantage which is leveraged to Hungary via their alliances. Obviously when you peaced out Hungary's allies, you didn't have your wargoal - Lika - occupied. Otherwise, the warscore would have never been in the negs.

This. You were trying to use the same warscore twice, both to get stuff from the Italians and fron Hungary.

The AI should probably be more likely to accept peace deals where they take small losses against an overwhelming enemy, but then again, had Hungary secured an alliance with France they could still have turned the tide. I think defender AI should aggresively go over relations cap to get a powerful ally, where possible.

 

[laijka]

- ) Hungary occupies my Venice’s Dalmatia

+ ) Venice wipes out the ludicrous Hungarian fleet.
+ ) Venice destroys Tuscany army
+ ) Venice destroys Milan Army
+ ) Venice occupies all 3 provinces of Tuscany
+ ) Venice occupies all 2 provinces of Milan

At this point the Venice War score is quite positive Venive has +32; Hungary position is not the best we all agree.

No, the alliance isn't in a good position. Hungary however are occupying one province of yours while keeping the objective of the war (Lika) secured. Their position is actually favourable. They are making gains.

By making separate peace with the two weaker links in the alliance you took away what leverage you had against the alliance as a whole and replaced it with the disadvantage you had against its strongest link.

It would have been far more lucrative for you had you made peace with Hungary using the leverage you had on Milan and Tuscany against them. Or, after making sure Milan and Tuscany was of no more threat, kept them in the war and focused on taking back Dalmatia and securing the objective before making any peace offers.

 

[Gaamel]

Don't forget that by reducing your number of enemies in the war, you also change the "relative strength of alliances" in your favor, which means you'll have a bonus in the peace deal.

 

[Aries666]

Don't forget that by reducing your number of enemies in the war, you also change the "relative strength of alliances" in your favor, which means you'll have a bonus in the peace deal.

It wont have any affect on relative strength of alliances if you peace out a nation that is fully occupied with no army/navy.

 

[Xiathorn]

This makes perfect sense to me. Allies in War are going to talk to each other, and if this were a real-world situation, and a country was occupied, they would beseech the other allies to either liberate them, or make peace with the enemy.

However, if an ally makes a separate peace, then while the military power of the nation is decreased, there is no longer an ally badgering the others to make peace. Before you made a separate peace, they had a reason to stop the war. After you make the separate peace, that reason is gone.

The game does track military strength, and uses it in terms of peace treaties. Effectively, War Enthusiasm will have an effect on what kind of peace treaties they will be willing to take. If you've wiped out their fleet, they'll have taken War Exhaustion and will also have a malus to their "Relative strength of alliances", which will mean that they will be more likely to accept an unfavourable peace.

For the *war score*, however - this is how well they are pressing the goals of the war. They occupy the province that is contested, so frankly they are winning the war right now. They will be more likely to take a white peace, for example, because their War Enthusiasm will be low, and they expect to lose overall, but this doesn't change the fact that *right now*, they're winning.

 

[iosys2]

Lombardy, Pisa, Romagna and Lika in a war... You'll have a quite bad coalition soon

Yes Huge it was just an experiment, and to figure out that now coalition works also if one member starts the war not only as defensive.

Sorry but either you all explain plainly how the stupid calculation is done or even justifies it.
Yes it is clear that after pacify the Italian front I own nothing (YET) of Hungary while they have the war goal and 1 of my province.

But a reasonable AI should understand the global situation.
I would agree to -16 if we just started the war and we both have no allies,
BUT LET BE HONEST
who of you, Human being, with no suicidal spirit, would, after having lost all your allies, no further ally (no France, bad relation with neighborhood, actually just ended a lousy war with Austria) would have refused a while peace or even paid few ducats if any left in the treasury?
Or would you have try to endure a war alone with country whose army is twice yours, now with plenty of ducats to even hire new armies, just to end the war having lost: lands, all your army, no manpower left and surrounded by hungry powerful kingdom like Austria, Ottomans and Lithuania whit whom your truce is ticking to the end?

 

[iosys2]

EDIT: Fact that he used "wrong" casus belli is reflected by AE gain and rules to warcore cost for allies of CB target, it is not something he mention as badly designed.

Wrong casus belli?
What is in reality a casus belli for?
Do yo think that Austria when started the first WW was just because she wanted Serbia allowing her police department to investigate the Prince murder?
Do you think that when Nazy German started the second WW was only to retaliate for the radio station allegedly stormed by Polish soldier?
Do you think that I started the war because I care about low Base Tax Lika? Or rather I was looking after the reach Tuscany and Milan (and for Italy) which I could not DoW directly otherwise Austria will join the defensive war making mincemeat of me.

Casus belli is just any excuse. In history some were really silly too.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

Yes Huge it was just an experiment, and to figure out that now coalition works also if one member starts the war not only as defensive.

Sorry but either you all explain plainly how the stupid calculation is done or even justifies it.
Yes it is clear that after pacify the Italian front I own nothing (YET) of Hungary while they have the war goal and 1 of my province.

But a reasonable AI should understand the global situation.
I would agree to -16 if we just started the war and we both have no allies,
BUT LET BE HONEST
who of you, Human being, with no suicidal spirit, would, after having lost all your allies, no further ally (no France, bad relation with neighborhood, actually just ended a lousy war with Austria) would have refused a while peace or even paid few ducats if any left in the treasury?
Or would you have try to endure a war alone with country whose army is twice yours, now with plenty of ducats to even hire new armies, just to end the war having lost: lands, all your army, no manpower left and surrounded by hungry powerful kingdom like Austria, Ottomans and Lithuania whit whom your truce is ticking to the end?

With that logic every minor nation should basically put up a sign at the border saying " I surrender"

 

[iosys2]

With that logic every minor nation should basically put up a sign at the border saying " I surrender"

Well yes and actually it is what they do. When you beat down the war leader - the strong defender - the others surrender automatically.
One of the good things the Ai does is that all minors rush to find a strong protector.
If a small country fails to have defenders or a strong army, or a coalition it should not fight but start at once to negotiate peace to save what can be saved.
A country should make the last stand only when the peace deal is complete annexing and you still hope to prologue the war so long and hope to find eleven hour defender. A white pace and few ducats should never be disregarded. Even vassalization if it is at its wit end; better than annexed.

 

[Mikalos]

Yes Huge it was just an experiment, and to figure out that now coalition works also if one member starts the war not only as defensive.

Sorry but either you all explain plainly how the stupid calculation is done or even justifies it.
Yes it is clear that after pacify the Italian front I own nothing (YET) of Hungary while they have the war goal and 1 of my province.

But a reasonable AI should understand the global situation.
I would agree to -16 if we just started the war and we both have no allies,
BUT LET BE HONEST
who of you, Human being, with no suicidal spirit, would, after having lost all your allies, no further ally (no France, bad relation with neighborhood, actually just ended a lousy war with Austria) would have refused a while peace or even paid few ducats if any left in the treasury?
Or would you have try to endure a war alone with country whose army is twice yours, now with plenty of ducats to even hire new armies, just to end the war having lost: lands, all your army, no manpower left and surrounded by hungry powerful kingdom like Austria, Ottomans and Lithuania whit whom your truce is ticking to the end?

again, as somebody said, once hungary's war with you had cast off it's western allies, it was left in a position where you now had some unruly provinces in the west, a weaker military from the western front, and they holding one of your provinces. what part of this is hungary being in a weaker position? They have the net gain at the moment and could have easily still beaten you

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It wont have any affect on relative strength of alliances if you peace out a nation that is fully occupied with no army/navy.

Relative strength of alliances is a trash modifier anyway and needs to go, especially with the new changes to length of war/5 year rule. Whatever tiny shred of purpose it once served is long gone (if it ever existed), functionally equating to double-counting. If the alliance strength is relevant, it should prove it within 5 years.

 

[Less]

Relative strength of alliances is a trash modifier anyway and needs to go, especially with the new changes to length of war/5 year rule. Whatever tiny shred of purpose it once served is long gone (if it ever existed), functionally equating to double-counting. If the alliance strength is relevant, it should prove it within 5 years.

Yeah, I can agree with this.

At most there should be some kind of "Great Power recently joined the war" modifier if a major nation like France joins in halfway through to ensure players can't immediately try to peace out before they make a difference, but the modifier should then count down on a monthly basis.