Absolute MUST-HAVEs in HoI 3 - pretty please?

[truth is life]

I think that the amount of dissent you get from releasing a puppet ought to depend on several sliders, possibly ministers, and perhaps your overall ideology (or rather, the relative strength of certain factions in government). So if you are highly democratic, have very weak far right-wing and far left-wing parties, and don't have, eg., a PoT minister, then you get zero or negative dissent from releasing a puppet. This would more realistically account for this source of dissent; France and the US, for example, had very different reactions to attempted puppet releases, despite both being democracies.

Second, the post-war situation must be improved. Depending on which alliance "wins" in Europe (the Allies or the Comintern; the Axis is a special case), the states that are generally released (such as the FRG, Denmark, Norway, etc.) ought to join the alliance that released them. Furthermore, they should be released from the alliance that actually occupies their territory. For example, if the Netherlands or Norway are occupied by the Soviet Union and they choose to "Make Puppet States" or the relevant options after Germany's defeat, than they will be released as Communist Comintern members, rather than neutral democracies. This would help remove oddities like Poland becoming a Stalinist Soviet puppet when the US was halfway to the Vistula and the Soviets didn't control Moscow! If a country is occupied by both major alliances, perhaps there could be some sort of dynamic splitting system to divide it between two countries like Germany or Korea.

 

[Von Paulous]

The option of saving as scrpit the game as well as saving a particular date as it is now.

Would be an invaluble tool.For editors, modders, multiplayer practicing.

 

[Shadow Master]

I think that the amount of dissent you get from releasing a puppet ought to depend on several sliders, possibly ministers, and perhaps your overall ideology (or rather, the relative strength of certain factions in government). So if you are highly democratic, have very weak far right-wing and far left-wing parties, and don't have, eg., a PoT minister, then you get zero or negative dissent from releasing a puppet.

We see this differently.

I picture Hitler up on a platform, using his great orating skillz, whipping a mob to a frenzy with his ranting....

Today, the Third Reich has forced upon the subhumans, in the former nation of {pick one}, to accept peace on OUR TERMS! [Thunderous applause from the thousands gathered].

Today, the Third Reich has begun extracting tribute from {pick one}, and this shall surely lead to......[Thunderous applause from the thousands gathered].

So yea, I can totally see 100,000's of German workers walking off the job the next day. NOT!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[Markusw7]

Dissent for releasing and liberating puppets is largely for Gamebalance. Germany having conquered all of scandaniva was able to in earlier patches release scandanavia at no real cost (10% of resources? that was mostly sent back) and gained a new ally that had full use of all of its provinces and could help greatly with the war effort. An even worse example was Japan releasing Nat china, all of Japans manpower problems go away if China is producing a horde of units for you. Although democracies get less dissent for eleasing puppets France and UK who have the potential to relase alot of puppets later had events added so that you had a choice of more effiecient resource gains, more infantry that gives you alot less IC for a time or keeping the status quo. in HOI3 i think they should only remove this dissent hit if they stop puppets from being the extremly stable countries they are in game, they should still get partisans and the occasional event giving them dissent or even sometimes be able to make decisions that go against you overall plans (and thus have to be punished).

 

[Sangeli]

In regard to point 6, there needs to be a maximum amount of land/resources a nation can lose before it unconditionally surrenders. To me it just seems ridiculous how you can get Nazi fanaticals to surrender unconditionally without controlling all their land while in fighting Brazil in a non historical war you need to conquer every victory point province.

 

[unmerged(85800)]

We see this differently.

I picture Hitler up on a platform, using his great orating skillz, whipping a mob to a frenzy with his ranting....

Today, the Third Reich has forced upon the subhumans, in the former nation of {pick one}, to accept peace on OUR TERMS! [Thunderous applause from the thousands gathered].

Today, the Third Reich has begun extracting tribute from {pick one}, and this shall surely lead to......[Thunderous applause from the thousands gathered].

So yea, I can totally see 100,000's of German workers walking off the job the next day. NOT!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

the dissent hit from releasing a puppet isnt perfect. in some circumstances (as britain releasing poland at the end of the war for example) there should be none, but generally (as different circumstances cant be taken into account) i think it works. what is it, a 5% hit? i dont think of that as 100,000 people suddenly walking out of the factory and sitting at home in silent protest. i think of it as say 60% of the population getting a little dissolutioned with their government, and the effect of them being a bit pissed off is a 5% drop in overall productivity. just the way i tend to view it.

making your own puppet nations would be cool, but for the reason Markusw7 said, it is completely ridiculous if you are trying for a realistic game. the reason you can only release set nations is that there has to be some sort of national identity in place before you can proclaim that the people are part of that nation.

lastly, i very strongly think that what churchill was saying was not empty rhetoric, and that if the french can fight on from their colonies, then the british would most certainly fight on from their (infinately more valuable) colonies.

 

[unmerged(91061)]

the reason you can only release set nations is that there has to be some sort of national identity in place before you can proclaim that the people are part of that nation.

This is not an area of history I'm too hot on but what about Yugoslavia? Didn't Tito famously say he was the only true Yugoslavian because all Yugoslavians identified more with their regional nationalities then their superordinate Yugoslavian nationality. I think it's reasonable to go creating Puppet nation's borders at your whim, but you cannot under any circumstances conjure national provinces out of thin air, they would be immutable.
Furthermore, I do think that rather then have the dissent hit for releasing puppets, puppets should simply be less powerful and prone to partisans, which would encourage players to stick to national provinces when creating puppet states.

The points about demanding provinces in peace negotiations needing a map et al are SPOT ON!

 

[unmerged(63189)]

about diplomacy in general, it needs to be allowed to enter 'big' alliances if you lead 'minor' alliance with your puppets. especially nat chi which has puppets, cant enter allies because its already in alliance with a puppet. maybe satelite could not count as normal ally and allow to make different, 'bigger' alliances?

 

[Khevenhuller]

lastly, i very strongly think that what churchill was saying was not empty rhetoric, and that if the french can fight on from their colonies, then the british would most certainly fight on from their (infinately more valuable) colonies.[/QUOTE


Seems fairly accurate to me. If what happened in the Channel Islands are any guide you would have had a fairly benign German Occupation (by their standards) of a Vichy-esque state. German planning saw Lloyd George as a possible puppet leader, but there were plenty of appeasers in the Conservative Party (Halifax, Butler etc) who would have accomodated, and there is always the Edward VIII option.

Indeed, the British government discussed peace for two days in 1940, considering handing over Malta, Gibraltar and some African colonies to Mussolini in return for him acting as peace broker with Hitler. Churchill and the Liberal and Labour members of the cabinet were opposed, but Halifax was keen. In the end a compromise was agreed, suggested by Chamberlain, that feelers should be put out to see if there was a chance of Britain getting out of the war with acceptable terms.

Then there's the whole Prits Telegram affair on top of that...

So the idea of 'Britain fighting on' in a glow of Churchillian rhetoric has to be tempered by a realistic analysis of what the circumstances were in British politics. Certainly, a Vichy-type Britain and a Free French type Empire are very realistic options. But the Far East and Middle East would probably be very problematical in the face of a collapse of Imperial Prestige...

K

 

[Sgt. Optimus]

If a country is occupied by both major alliances, perhaps there could be some sort of dynamic splitting system to divide it between two countries like Germany or Korea.

I totaly support this idea!

 

[Sgt. Optimus]

Ideology sliders and names should be changed IMO.

For example, this would be soo much better:

Stalinist ----> People's Republic
Leninist/Left wing Radical ----> Socialist Republic
Paternal Autocrat ----> Kingdom
National Socialist/Fascist ----> adjective "Greater" should be added

 

[Hayden]

Second, the post-war situation must If a country is occupied by both major alliances, perhaps there could be some sort of dynamic splitting system to divide it between two countries like Germany or Korea.

I had an idea, allowing for multiple "renditions" of the same country. It would work something like this; every country (in this case, Germany) would be releasable multiple times, with the flags and ministers depending on the nature of the puppeteer. So, for example, the Germany released after the war would have the same tag and effectively be the same country; if France was feeling particularly feisty, they could release their own German puppet while the British and Americans release another, and the soviets release a third. You see where I'm going with this. Of course, these countries would have the same territorial aspirations (I.E. each other).

 

[unmerged(85800)]

Ideology sliders and names should be changed IMO.

For example, this would be soo much better:

Stalinist ----> People's Republic
Leninist/Left wing Radical ----> Socialist Republic
Paternal Autocrat ----> Kingdom
National Socialist/Fascist ----> adjective "Greater" should be added

what if the paternal autocracy is not led by a king? for instance nationalist china.
and also, People's republic is not the name of an ideology. its the name someone of a certain ideology might give their country.

the splitting idea is an excellent one, if it could be made to work well.

the point Cammunation made about Yugoslavia is good too, i hadnt thought of that. though surely the concept and name wasnt invented out of thin air? i dont know anything about yugoslavia really, but surely there was more national identity for yugoslavia than say if i owned spain and i took 3 random provinces and called them the democratic people's federation of British_Imperial. and then expected everyone not to mind being citizens of a country with such a stupid name.

 

[Markusw7]

what if the paternal autocracy is not led by a king? for instance nationalist china.
and also, People's republic is not the name of an ideology. its the name someone of a certain ideology might give their country.

the splitting idea is an excellent one, if it could be made to work well.

the point Cammunation made about Yugoslavia is good too, i hadnt thought of that. though surely the concept and name wasnt invented out of thin air? i dont know anything about yugoslavia really, but surely there was more national identity for yugoslavia than say if i owned spain and i took 3 random provinces and called them the democratic people's federation of British_Imperial. and then expected everyone not to mind being citizens of a country with such a stupid name.

i'm pretty sure it means something along the lines of United Slav lands or something.

 

[unmerged(128754)]

This makes the assumption that the 5% is the actual population and not the drag on the economy due to a much smaller number of unhappy people.

 

[FERT]

I want to join colonial troops in the territory and not coming for fatherland.

Gourka for English displaces in India directly . or Ascari for Italy in Libia or AOI

 

[unmerged(85800)]

This makes the assumption that the 5% is the actual population and not the drag on the economy due to a much smaller number of unhappy people.

i know it does, i was just wandering if that assumption is correct. after all, 5% partisan levels in a province doesnt mean that 5% of the population of the province is in open revolt.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Ideology sliders and names should be changed IMO.

For example, this would be soo much better:

Stalinist ----> People's Republic
Leninist/Left wing Radical ----> Socialist Republic
Paternal Autocrat ----> Kingdom
National Socialist/Fascist ----> adjective "Greater" should be added

Why?

Custom titles are awesome in EU3/IN (I'm doing a flavor title mod for EU3 right now), but seriously, no nation ever included "Greater" in its official name. Nor was every communist state a people's republic. For example, East Germany was the German Democratic Republic. There's too much variation to get it right, unless you want to see a Kingdom of the United States run by Emperor Lindbergh :wacko:

EDIT: What is needed are ideology-specific flags, as in Victoria.

 

[unmerged(91061)]

surely there was more national identity for yugoslavia than say if i owned spain and i took 3 random provinces and called them the democratic people's federation of British_Imperial. and then expected everyone not to mind being citizens of a country with such a stupid name.

Certainly, the Illyrian movement had been promoting a Yugoslavic national identity for many decades before the formation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

It'd be a bit like releasing the puppet of "Iberia" or "Arabia". I think the dilemma here is whether players should be able to conjure puppet nation's boundaries out of thin air or should they have to stay within the confines of national identity. In the former, I could take Paris, Montenegro & Istanbul, and make them the sole constituants of "Stupendousstan". Whereas in the latter case, to take the above Iberian example, I could create the nation of Iberia giving it whatever provinces I wanted, in whatever configuration I wanted, so long as those provinces were on the Iberian peninsula.
I would argue that the former is ideal, if only because I believe in erring on the side of giving players more choice, even if it means they're free to create a few abominations. I would like to see a system of arbitrary puppet creation, but with numerous factors encouraging them to stay within the confines of history. Non-national provinces should have notable partisan activity and reduced IC & resources.
Furthermore, non-contiguous puppets should have supply & IC issues, so releasing Vichy France but putting a "wedge" of Nazi provinces from Calias to Provence, splitting the state, would create a lot of inefficiencies.
Finally, seeing as each country has various parties now, it could be possible that if you created, say, a Democratic Puppet out of Russia, the Liberal and Conservative parties would have much less organization and support then the Communist party, so creating a puppet with a different type of constitution could also have penalties.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Was there ever an example during the war of a serious project to create a puppet state with no historical precedent? The Japanese got the last Manchu Emperor to head their Manchukuo, mind you. They didn't just wake up one day and say, "Let's draw the national border...right about nyah."

Of course, if you dig deep enough, you can find precedents for almost anything, but custom puppets is going way too far (especially given the sheer number of countries you could liberate in HoI2). The only place where this would be relevant is China, given the proliferation of local warlords, but it's a very special case - plus there's already a number of choices.