About warez and copyright..... (long)

[unmerged(703)]

Well, I read the little EU tutorial thread and it has been locked ;-)

Never the less I would like to give the community here a picture of the problem....

I live in Indonesia, I am a Swede and I develop software (www.ciptasoft.com).

Indonesia is the paradise of pirates, well at least that is what BSA says ;-)

To give one example:
I have a software called Linguist. It has according to a leading Indonesian computer magazine over 35,000 users. I have until today sold 3,500 licenses. Several government agensies are using it, still I have never sold them a copy.....

Now my more expensive software have dongles, so there it's another story..... No good crackers around here.... Thanks god ;-)

Now game developers have a real dilema here. On one hand they have to keep the price low at the same time they have to prevent piracy.

We also have to see a fact that many of the users of the pirated software will not buy the software (maybe not so appropiate to games though). Average income in Indonesia is today around $50, which disqualify most 'gamers' to by even a computer. Now if they get the money for a computer, they are going to have a hard time to get the money for software.

We are now getting down to the actual problem with software today. In 'piracy' countries you will face a consumer with much less purchase power than in a more 'civilized' country. This creates problems for software vendors, books, music, film etc Anything that is priced after the 'copyrighted content' and not the 'media'.

You can solve this with copy protection in different forms. For software this is not so efficient since the crackers takes this away fairly fast (actually more or less only English and German versions, since the best cracking groups are speaking these languages).
Or you can create a product that is not 'profitable' to purchase as a pirate copy.

Now who are the 'profiteers' of the piracy. Well, it's actually not the consumer. Many software products are not available here. EU will most probably be available on this market, due to the fact that it is a more specific product and the people using it are not surfing warez sites and go to the 'murky' pirate sales counters.

My experience is that you have the following 'consumer' groups:

1. Casual consumer.
He buy's what is available in the store. Pirated or not, he doesn't really care.

2. Corporate consumer.
He buy's what he needs and will never take any risks using pirated copies. Risks are like being prosecuted, getting faulty products or being left without support.

3. The fanatic.
He will always buy everything as a pirate copy since he hates everyone that can make a buck more than him. Most crackers belongs here ;-)

Now to reach this groups you have the following ways:

A. Software in the shop. Accessability is important.

B. Internet e-commerce sites. Shareware is a concept living on the internets 'good' side, with mixed success I might add (I am a member of ASP ;-).

C. Warez sites.

D. Friends. 'Lend me your CD'. Haven't we all borrowed a CD from a friend to just copy that favorite song..

Now, the users in 1 and 2 will to 99% of the time never find C. Their only chance of getting a copy is through friends. The fanatics are the owners and the creators of the warez sites.

In Indonesia the shops many times get cluttered by pirated CD:s, which is VERY difficult to separate from the original. Many might buy a product and believe it's an original. Cheated. This is a HUGE problem here. This is not a problem in Sweden (even if there sometimes comes up a case).

Internet sale doesn't work. People here don't pay for shareware. Simple enough.

Warez sites. Having a site here cost money and warez sites don't make money. So not a problem. Warez sites abroad are often too slow to being able to support the already bad infrastructure in countries like Indonesia.

Friends. Everyone borrows......

So how to get this solved?

Several companies are now making 'local' versions. Translate to local language and sell to a lower price (which the pirates can't beat ;-). Use less quality paper for prints, cheaper media etc to cut cost. This has been very successful, hence not so large profit which discourage some larger players )guess who ;-).

And of course, we, all developing software companies here, are hunting down the larger pirates and try to close them down (actually successful most of the time, just takes some time). I have already closed 3 companies pirating my products.

The important is to make the software available to everyone to a (per capita) reasonable price.

As an end I might add that even if you as a developer gets very sad seeing your work being profited on, you have to be realistic and play the 'war' by the rules there are. You will win in the end, but it is never easy.

Now of course the most obvious question is, are you not using any priated software ?
I am realistic and of course on my computers there are pirate copies. But I do my best to buy the originals and we have a yearly audit of the software licenses. It's impossible for a company to have full control, specially here. Last audit gave us about 40 % of my computers had one or more not licensed software. Well, it was removed, the staff repriminded, but we just have to see next year......
Privately. Actually everything is original. Even the shareware I am using is paid for (which actually is the most).

EU ? Well, I have it installed on two computers (home and office) with one license. On the other hand I will buy the English (pre-ordered) and I don't use them at the same time. Nobody else speak Swedish here.....

For Paradox, interested in a Indonesian version? Let me know.
Want to know more about warez, crackers and piracy? Let me know, I live in it......

PS. Sorry, I know this is OT, but it seems like the more serious people only resides here. DS. ;-)

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bmolsson
*Just passing by*

 

[unmerged(255)]

Hrm, interesting post bmolsson, thanks alot for the insight. I've known many people who either pirate software or buy/download such products over the years... One personal observation: Most of these individuals have a strange tendency to discriminate between games and utilities. Like, they would -never-EVER pay for a microsoft (or any other large non-gaming software pub.) product, but would loyally support gaming co's such as Firaxis, Blizzard etc... Whereas in 'less civilized' countries people pirate software out of need, over here in the West there seems to be a beat-the-system kinda attitude. Dunno, just my 2 cents + fries

tuna

 

[hjarg]

That pirate Gates, support game companies is quite common here as well.
In my country, just a year ago you could buy pirated software free on market. Difference between pirate-Windows and original: 10 times (2000:200). Now they are harder to get, since the goverment has taken serious action to stop piracy and people start buting originals. But 7 years ago no-one even understood difference between original and pirate.
I can say that i have about 90% legal soft. Illegal ones are older games that I can't find from anywhere anymore. 2 years back i decided no more pirating and started replacing my pirate copies with originals. So the Saulus turned Paulus

 

[hjarg]

That pirate Gates, support game companies is quite common here as well.
In my country, just a year ago you could buy pirated software free on market. Difference between pirate-Windows and original: 10 times (2000:200). Now they are harder to get, since the goverment has taken serious action to stop piracy and people start buting originals. But 7 years ago no-one even understood difference between original and pirate.
I can say that i have about 90% legal soft. Illegal ones are older games that I can't find from anywhere anymore. 2 years back i decided no more pirating and started replacing my pirate copies with originals. So the Saulus turned Paulus
But as long as there is demand, there is always piracy... though the fines for using it have gone really high in the last year.

Only one thing I don't like about anti-piracy fight: our police and BSA have united and have right to check every damn computer they want. Just knock on the door, come in and check the computer. That's too much, imho.

 

[unmerged(502)]

where are you from?

Originally posted by hjarg:
That pirate Gates, support game companies is quite common here as well.
In my country, just a year ago you could buy pirated software free on market. Difference between pirate-Windows and original: 10 times (2000:200). Now they are harder to get, since the goverment has taken serious action to stop piracy and people start buting originals. But 7 years ago no-one even understood difference between original and pirate.
I can say that i have about 90% legal soft. Illegal ones are older games that I can't find from anywhere anymore. 2 years back i decided no more pirating and started replacing my pirate copies with originals. So the Saulus turned Paulus

 

[hjarg]

Estonia

 

[unmerged(590)]

http://home.c2i.net/nirgendwo/cdne/

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''Spass muss sein', sagte die Katze zum Vogel, und frass ihm.'

 

[Sidney]

Never the less I would like to give the community here a picture of the problem....
<Snip>
[/B]

Thailand is similar to the situation you describe in Indosenia but in America the crowd can be defined into two groups:

1. Real Pirates. Usually these are the 'stick it to the man' types. They know they are stealing (or at least develop some rationalization that intellecual property is a lie) but justify theft with the 'Just Price' argument, putting them in league with the Medieval Catholic Church on pricing, or it is a huge company so who are we hurting? These guys also tend to be rather non-slective and will download damn near anything even if they don't intend to play it.

2. Pirates with a Heart of Gold. These are folks that download games, truely, to evaluate them because there is not a demo or in the pre-broadband days becuase you did not have time to d/l anything you got burned CD's from associates who left their modems running all night and day. These foilks are very targeted at what they want to d/l.

I fell into the later category (broadband has obviated that need). I always (and yes ALWAYS)bought games I liked and enjoyed. Mainly becuase I wanted those companies that built a product I enjoyed to make their cash and, if possible, make another version of the game. Call it enlightened self-interest. Heck, I will still purchase most turn-based strat games just to keep the market alive- hence my purchase of JA2: Unfinished Business (save your moeny BTW). Throw in that pirate games often don't include the FMV's and have been 'modified' in other ways to disable copy proetction and you gets games that are not a rich expereince and are often unstable.

I work in an IT shop and the split is about 50-50 on the issue among gamers so I know piracy is alive and well. It is ironic that guys who write code for a living don't understand how what they are doing hurts other developers.

 

[Depp]

I don´t think I know anyone that has legal versions of all the windows versions he/she have used.
Piracy are here to stay, msuic or software. There are no copy protections that can withstand hackers or clonecd.
The solution in both music and software is to sell directly from the developer to the customer without publishers via the web, for just 5 bucks or so. People would rather pay the artist/developer directly than support a big organisation.

 

[hjarg]

Originally posted by Depp:
I don´t think I know anyone that has legal versions of all the windows versions he/she have used.
Piracy are here to stay, msuic or software. There are no copy protections that can withstand hackers or clonecd.
The solution in both music and software is to sell directly from the developer to the customer without publishers via the web, for just 5 bucks or so. People would rather pay the artist/developer directly than support a big organisation.

First: 5 bucks? That's a bit too cheap, imho. Develpoers must live too, you know.
Second: buying directly from web would require credit card, but in many less-developed countries (where the piracy is more problematic), peope just don't have credit cards and can't afford them.

 

[unmerged(628)]

I'm a bit of fanatic about piracy. Part of my reason is I absolutely hate some of the stupid tricks developers play to make piracy more difficult. It used to be you had to look up words in a manual -- what a PAIN. Sierra is the one that ticks me off the most with their required login to their site to check numbers. I don't know how well that works to prevent piracy but I know it can be a pain to the user (like when their site is down and it won't let you play a game on the Internet because it can't authenticate).

One thing I really appreciate that some publishers do is to allow more than one person to legally play a multiplayer game with just one CD. This way with 1-3 legal copies of the game we can try it multiplayer. If we like it all 10 of us go out and buy it but if a game requires one CD per player in multiplayer we seldom bother with the product at all. It would cost us 8 X $40 = $320 just to try it.

I've not experienced the realities outside of North America but even here I am constantly surprised by people's lack of scruples concerning intellectual property.

I was looking at digigal cameras a while ago in a camera shop. I was asking about the interface to the computer and made some comment like 'USB is the only way to go!'

The sales person said he agreed saying 'But you need Win98 to use it and my mom still has Win95.' I nodded and said 'That's a no brainer really' meaning you just go out and buy the upgrade. He replied 'Yea I should just mail my Win98 CD to my mom.' So here's this sales person telling me, a customer, how he plans to break the law. Obviously he doesn't think it is a big deal.


Another example:
A while ago the group of friends I play games with moved from Win95 to Win98 (at least in part at my urging). I realized there was a temptation to use one of their buddies CD's on the part of some of these guys for whom money is tight. So I bought Win98 for everyone so no one would even be tempted. Imagine my anger when one of the guys calls me up for some technical help and it requires him to insert the Win98 CD and he says 'Uh oh, I loaned that to my brother.'

[This message has been edited by Ice Sickle (edited 08-02-2001).]

 

[Depp]

I don´t see how you can get a computer and not be able to have a creditcard ? Creditcards are obtainable interantionally even.
And five bucks are 10 % of the game cost now, im not really sure if you remove all the sidecosts with publishing etc if the developer get´s even this. In the music buisness the artist recieves even less than this, escpecially new artists.

 

[unmerged(703)]

A more philosophic way to see the copyright and intellectual property is to compare it with other things in life....

Can I borrow your car during the night ? I mean you don't need it anyway... ('The joyride culture' ;-)

Can I borrow your wife? Just for a couple of hours, and she agrees.......

The value of property shifts through history and it's differs in different religions and political systems. The weaker part wants to be protected from the stronger part and a lot of different arguments is used to achieve this.

If you don't have enough money to get the game, then you think that it is overpriced.
If you don't get enough sale from your developed products you feel cheated since all your work has been in vain and you blame it on the pirates.

Winners and loosers are always around. Sometimes it's the consumer (you buy a real crappy product and the developer gets away with it), sometimes it's the developer (who get's his software pirated by everyone and he starves).....

I hate copyprotection, as a consumer it is, and it's easy for me to be honest, I have the money and the credit cards.
On the other side, I use copy protection my self, just to be able to have the money to be honest and have my darn credit card. Of course there are several people that hate me for that. They just need my software and can't afford it......

In a political sense, Karl Marx had a valid point and was a very intelligent man. All rights belongs to the masses. The collective is more important than the individual. But who wants to work then ?
Slavery was another political occurance in history based on the fact that some people need to work and get less for there work to get others more......
Todays capitalistic view creates other types of 'communism' and 'slavery', by indebted citizens and monopolistic practisis.

If we stay to the software industry, Microsoft IS a problem. Windows is over charged and it can be made since the system more or less have monopoly.
On the other hand, Bill Gates is doing what he is expected to do. He is an entrepreneur and an engine for the society. The consumers have to judge him. The politicians has to guard the well being for the collective. Even if the anti-trust trial against Microsoft is in many way silly and pathetic, they do fill an important purpose, they guard the consumer.
All large fusion between companies has to be approved by EU and US governments, this is important even if it sometimes opens the chance for 'big brother' syndrome.

Just like in our EU game, you have to balance religion, economy, technology and your war machine.

Me as an entrepreneur and software developer, will never be upset for a single private user pirates my software. It's a part of the game. I will use all means to sue larger pirates and close warez sites, IF it's profitable. If it's not, then I just forget it or protect my software.
If I can't make any money of the software, then I won't develop it any more.

In Indonesia, there is a large need for educational software. I have been asked by many to develop that. My answer is, when someone pays me for it, since otherwise everyone will pirate it (including the schools). Indonesia pays the price for piracy, they just don't understand it yet.
Countries like Sweden understands this and protect the developers, but at the same time try to guard from abuse of consumer (with mixed result though).....

A game like Europa Universalis, will most probably not have a large crowd of pirates, since the software goes towards people who have money. Who else would be interested in the game?

I am getting so tired for all the games that goes towards kids with cute graphics, loosy game play, boring replayability and with soap opera themes.
A company like Paradox could find the nische of boring dinosaurus like me, just sitting behind the computer for hours and pretend to be a part of a historical event.
I was Sweden yesterday and I annexed China... And got a thrill out of it....

I know all the warez sites.... I can buy pirated copies any time.... Still I don't, because I want Johan, Patric and Greven (what ever his name is) to continue develop the EU game... I WANT to have a sequel.....

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bmolsson
*Just passing by*

 

[unmerged(628)]

Let me just toss out at thought:

Six years ago I bought my first copy of Win95. I believe it was selling for around $99. It was for my 486/66 with 16 megs of ram. Each meg cost me $50 by the way. The CPU I think was around $200.

Pre-Win95 I was playing Doom II, Hammer of the Gods, Warlords, Battle Isle II, etc. When we got together to play games it was a nightmare to get the network working in DOS.

So that was 6 years ago. I've built 4 systems since then for my own personal use(P90, K6-233, K6-2-500, Athlon T-bird 900). And I can't think of more than a handful of applications that made it from one machine to the next and I can't think of any that made it to from the 486 all the way to the 900. But Win95 could still run the 900 almost as well. I wouldn't have USB support and my harddrive would be cut into 2 gig partitions (now there is alphabet soup for you!) but with all the FREE DirectX upgrades it would still be working fine. Toss in another $100 for the upgrade to Win98 and I'm golden (that's what I have on my 900 by the way).

So in six years all I've HAD to spend on OS is $99. Reasonably though $199 is more on target to stay current. I spent more than that on a 4 meg 16 pin SIMM which is now completely useless.

I don't know, it seems to me Win95 is one heck of a bargain. BTW, on my machine at work (aerospace company) I am still running Win95!

 

[hjarg]

Originally posted by Depp:
I don´t see how you can get a computer and not be able to have a creditcard ? Creditcards are obtainable interantionally even.
And five bucks are 10 % of the game cost now, im not really sure if you remove all the sidecosts with publishing etc if the developer get´s even this. In the music buisness the artist recieves even less than this, escpecially new artists.

I have a computer and I don't have a credit card. I don't want a credit card. I know myself too good to get something that let's you waste more money then you have. So I end up buying things form the shop or using my friend's credit cards. But if you could only buy from the net, it would be serious pain in the a**.
And I like to walk around in computer shop, concider my options, think what is good and what is not. It isn't the same when you buy from the net.

 

[Depp]

hjarg: if you don´t chose to have one isn´t the question, the question is if you can obtain one, and yes you can. And by the way, although the name is creditcard, I have no credit on it, just shop with the money you have, and I belive this is the common use at least in europe. So it´s not a problem, just a way to let you use you money electronically, not shop with money you don´t have.

 

[unmerged(628)]

I've got a few friends that have 'no credit card policies' and is a pain (even in the US) to get games into their hands in a timely manner. The problem with credit cards is not the use of them. The problem is failure to pay them off every month.

Many banks (in the US) now offer VISA or MasterCard cards that are debt cards. They are tied directly to ones checking account but otherwise function like credit cards.

 

[unmerged(703)]

Credit cards are just great....

Don't use the credit though... Expensive...

If you get something that is not what is was promised, just refuse to pay... The credit card company will help you to get the bad supplier on his knees... Specially on internet purchases....

And also you get bonus points with many strange presents.... The kind of silly presents you never will buy anyway and your wife just love them.... And you become a very good husband as well.....

Well, got to go.... Have to shop some more.... ;-)

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bmolsson
*Just passing by*