About the AI's faliure to keep up economically

[dezuman]

I guess by now most people have noticed that AI opponents in 2.2 can't keep up economically into the mid-late game. I've seen people claim that the AI is totally incapable of managing the new systems, but I believe it's caused by a far simpler issue:
The AI doesn't seem to upgrade resource buildings at all. This isn't noticeable early-game, so I didn't realise this at first. However at about year 300 they're sitting on tons of unemployment and unused resources, including the special resources needed to upgrade their resource buildings.

Has anyone else seen this? I hope that I'm right, because if so it will be easily hotfixed early next week and I can get back to playing.

 

[Subcomandante]

Maybe it's a dev conspiracy. Let the early adopters learn the mechanics for a week with a gimped AI, then the fix and the gloves come off...

 

[Arch-Heretek]

They indeed do not seem to be upgrading anything. Just spied my federation mates and they all have basic buildings while I'm on tier 3. There was a fanatic purifier that also couldn't figure it out and never got past a single system.

Also, it seems federation members stop doing anything at all with their fleets when they join, just watched the khan eat one of them while the the doomstack sat at his home sytstem. There were some pirates in their systems too that have lasted since around the start of the game (its 2383 now)

 

[Verx90]

They indeed do not seem to be upgrading anything. Just spied my federation mates and they all have basic buildings while I'm on tier 3. There was a fanatic purifier that also couldn't figure it out and never got past a single system.

Also, it seems federation members stop doing anything at all with their fleets when they join, just watched the khan eat one of them while the the doomstack sat at his home sytstem. There were some pirates in their systems too that have lasted since around the start of the game (its 2383 now)

i think the single sistem fanatic purifier its the spawned one by event , he seems to be on the bugged side , and dont' realy expand .




even if the AI doesn't upgrade, it seems to stay up with the economy ; seems to be a bit on the buggy side with the fleet moving and building .

some empires build lots of fleets ( way over theyr fleet capacity ) while other don't build any , and some AI seems to follow the fleet capacity . in my 2450 games , 2 empires where at 110k fleet power and 80k fleet power, 5-6 empires where at 30-50k fleet power, all other under 10-5k .

 

[krios41]

In my game the majority of large empires are managing to stay "equivalent" economicaly but fall down to inferior, or even pathethic, in Fleet power and Tech.
And that is without me smashing them to pieces

EDIT: the AI is on Commodore difficulty and i am not sure if i enabled scaling or not

 

[dezuman]

In my game the majority of large empires are managing to stay "equivalent" economicaly but fall down to inferior, or even pathethic, in Fleet power and Tech.
And that is without me smashing them to pieces

I've had a similar experience. As far as I can see it's because they simply can't produce enough alloys and research with only tier 1 buildings.

 

[wingzero890]

I wish they would test their games more outside of multiplayer. The vast majority of players do not play in multiplayer to begin with.

 

[ffsffs1]

I question whether or not the AI uses the market effectively. In my game you could buy alloys for under 2 EC for a long period of time because I was dumping them on the market. Minerals were going for a similar price since I was buying a ton of them. Eventually, I ended up seeking out AI empires to trade with directly and could trade 1 monthly alloy for just over 5 monthly minerals. More damming is when I go to observer mode, I see tons of capped resources and 72/280 naval caps. Hell most the AI empires actually had higher naval caps than me but their fleet strengths are all pathetic because they don't build to their capacity

 

[Kenshi]

Yeah, the longer the game is on the weaker the ai gets. I have never managed to be the strongest guy in mid game on a high diffuculty before 2.2.

For me this is the biggest issue of this version so far. Game isn't really challenging as soon as you understand the new mechanics.

 

[Wolfgang I]

I risked a game last night and noticed that too. I should have known better.. I knew nothing about the new mechanics and crushed the AI completly .
It gets worse with every patch but I guess most people intersted in a challenging AI have given up or use an AI mod.

 

[dezuman]

I risked a game last night and noticed that too. I should have known better.. I knew nothing about the new mechanics and crushed the AI completly .
It gets worse with every patch but I guess most people intersted in a challenging AI have given up or use an AI mod.

I think you missed the point of my post: I suspect the primary reason for AI weakness is a silly oversight that will be hotfixed early next week. That's a good thing!

 

[Wolfgang I]

I think you missed the point of my post: I suspect the primary reason for AI weakness is a silly oversight that will be hotfixed early next week. That's a good thing!

Well I was optimistic too after 2.0 hit but they nerfed the AI even further because people complained about the AI cheating.
It seems the focus is clearly the MP side of the game.

I honestly only want an AI that cheats like crazy at this point with free ressources and massively reduced upkeep for stuff. Make it a checkbox which says "UNFAIR CHEATING AI BONUSES" for all I care.

 

[Verx90]

Well I was optimistic too after 2.0 hit but they nerfed the AI even further because people complained about the AI cheating.
It seems the focus is clearly the MP side of the game.

I honestly only want an AI that cheats like crazy at this point with free ressources and massively reduced upkeep for stuff. Make it a checkpock which says "UNFAIR CHEATING AI BONUSES" for all I care.

the AI doesn't realy have economic problem, yes, they are behind you , but they are all full stack the majority of the time ; the problem is some "bugs" in the build up fleet and starbases control , since almost all empires will go over starbases cap ( and not by 1 or 2 , increase theyr maintanimant by tons) and all starbases builded overcap will be left empty , even if they have the resources).

some empires will go way over they fleetcap , not realy a problem they are still in the good for resources gaining , but other empires will just not build up fleets for some reason ( some even bug out and don'tbuild any fleet )

all this to say, thats it not about resources .

all in all, from pre2.0 and 2.1 , the AI is improved, since now they get even to 110k fleet powers by endgame. they never realy went over more than 30k previusly. and the AI seems to be more likely to specilize starbases ( i saw some full traderoute starbases, some bastions , and anchorage focus) but the majority are still kinda MEH , even more because the AI doesn't build all modules or building ( not that you want to use always all building on starbases, but modules are kinda always usefull )

and since they removed resources cap bonuses from tech , the AI doesn't build stock increase buildings, not on planets or starbases.

 

[Leinad]

I think you missed the point of my post: I suspect the primary reason for AI weakness is a silly oversight that will be hotfixed early next week. That's a good thing!

Erm no. The AI fails at a lot of basic tasks with the current mechanics and thinking it will be fixed with a simple hotfix is as naive as thinking that Paradox will finally release a new DLC with a competent AI.
We are probably talking months before the AI is once again at least semi-competent and while I like the new economy mechanics I think that it has always been kind of dishonest to tell people that this system will be easier for the AI to handle. It might be in some areas but in others it adds layers of complexities which make it even harder (it now needs to handle the delicate balance of jobs, amenities, happiness and resources, a death spirale is thus even more likely than before).

Well I was optimistic too after 2.0 hit but they nerfed the AI even further because people complained about the AI cheating.
It seems the focus is clearly the MP side of the game.

I honestly only want an AI that cheats like crazy at this point with free ressources and massively reduced upkeep for stuff. Make it a checkpock which says "UNFAIR CHEATING AI BONUSES" for all I care.

Sorry but that's just stupid. If the AI only plays well with idiotic amounts of extra resources then it's just boring because the AI can IGNORE all important game mechanics and you as a player won't be playing the same game as the AI. It also just destroys a lot of strategic decisions for the player if the AI behaves outside of "normal" rules too much.

 

[dezuman]

Erm no. The AI fails at a lot of basic tasks with the current mechanics and thinking it will be fixed with a simple hotfix is as naive as thinking that Paradox will finally release a new DLC with a competent AI.
We are probably talking months before the AI is once again at least semi-competent and while I like the new economy mechanics I think that it has always been kind of dishonest to tell people that this system will be easier for the AI to handle. It might be in some areas but in others it adds layers of complexities which make it even harder (it now needs to handle the delicate balance of jobs, amenities, happiness and resources, a death spirale is thus even more likely than before).

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what you are seeing. As far as I can tell the AI has if anything gotten more competent at managing its economy. It just doesn't upgrade buildings because of some silly bug that has to be an easy fix. This actually surprised me, since even a player can easily mess up economically in 2.2.

 

[Wolfgang I]

the AI doesn't realy have economic problem, yes, they are behind you , but they are all full stack the majority of the time ; the problem is some "bugs" in the build up fleet and starbases control , since almost all empires will go over starbases cap ( and not by 1 or 2 , increase theyr maintanimant by tons) and all starbases builded overcap will be left empty , even if they have the resources).

some empires will go way over they fleetcap , not realy a problem they are still in the good for resources gaining , but other empires will just not build up fleets for some reason ( some even bug out and don'tbuild any fleet )

all this to say, thats it not about resources .

all in all, from pre2.0 and 2.1 , the AI is improved, since now they get even to 110k fleet powers by endgame. they never realy went over more than 30k previusly. and the AI seems to be more likely to specilize starbases ( i saw some full traderoute starbases, some bastions , and anchorage focus) but the majority are still kinda MEH , even more because the AI doesn't build all modules or building ( not that you want to use always all building on starbases, but modules are kinda always usefull )

and since they removed resources cap bonuses from tech , the AI doesn't build stock increase buildings, not on planets or starbases.

In 1.9.1 I was regularly able to fight AI fleets in the AI 300k fleet strength range in the late game and I saw AI Federations contain 2.5x crisis with 1000k+ fleet strength and in plain 2.0 I defeated a 5x crisis just by using the fleets my AI Federation allies built.
That was with max. difficulty and all AIs set to advanced starts. It was still no real challenge in the mid/late game but it was usually a challenge until 2250 or so.
A start next to an advanced purifier was really difficult before 2.0 and I got crushed in the first 20-30 years a few times as long as I refrained from snatching an undefended world and abusing the warscore system to snatch its homeworld. After 2.0 starting next to a genocidal AI was actually a bonus because you could use total war against it.

Sorry but that's just stupid. If the AI only plays well with idiotic amounts of extra resources then it's just boring because the AI can IGNORE all important game mechanics and you as a player won't be playing the same game as the AI. It also just destroys a lot of strategic decisions for the player if the AI behaves outside of "normal" rules too much.

Please name a strategy game in which the AI plays well without idiotic amounts of bonuses on high difficulties? It is a nice dream but it just ain't happening. Maybe with mods in some games...
Even the choke point mechanics work in favor of the player. I just steamrolled AI territory after 2.0 because the AI was always looking for a weak spot in my borders and sent its fleets in a year long journey to the other side of my empire because I never built any bastions and used the AI built ones against it by taking one at a choke point at the start of the war. By the time it got to one of my many weak spots I had usually won the war even in the early game.

 

[DaemarHavoc]

I'm a big fan of Paradox and Stellaris, and I love the new economic system (aside from some balancing and UI issues), but this release troubles me.

I know the AI doesn't tend to be great in these games, and has always been a little lackluster in Stellaris especially, but in its current state it simply doesn't really work. I'm not expecting wonders or even balance, but in CK2 and EUIV (particularly EUIV) the AI at least functions because it generates CHALLENGE and INTEREST. I don't want every enemy AI to minmax me to death. In fact I think greater focus on different AI behaviour profiles where they pursue different goals (with some randomness and/or based on their civics) would be great. But they need to make choices, declare wars, and at least a few of them need to be able to keep up with a reasonably competent player. If they fought had won and lost amongst each other it would generate that asymmetry that helps make Grand Strategy interesting.

Example: I started as a rogue servitor (who have a pretty rubbish starting economy and some issues there) with all advanced AI starts, on Admiral, with scaling bonuses, and AGGRESSIVE AI. And despite me learning the ropes (badly), having multiple Imperialist rivals with Superior or Overwhelming military forces, they never even attacked me. And honestly, this used to be a problem in earlier versions, too (I think I've been attacked a handful of times in all my playthroughs), but now even if you attack them, they can't really respond.

 

[Nin6]

Stellaris has been unplayable without AI improving mods found on steam workshop ever since 2.0. Nothing new. Just download the mandatory mods or uninstall the game.

 

[gbem]

actually its even worse now at 2.2... the AI doesnt even know how to colonize planets... 50 years in and most AI civs have 1-2 planets

 

[NanoChainedChromium]

Argh..i am in my first game now and it really shows. I am playing on Grand Admiral (No scaling), and i have no fucking idea how to properly optimize my economy with the new system, and STILL keeping up easily with the AI.

Thankfully Glavius is hard at work with his AI mod, but still. Ugh.

The AI REALLY took a hit with 2.0. In 1.9, on highest difficulty the AI was somewhat of a threat. With the introduction of the Starbase System, the AI really suffered. Now with the new and more complex econ, the AI seems to be even more out of its depth.

Nobody expects a Chess Engine or Google Deepmind. But teaching an 4x AI to play SOMEWHAT properly is possible. The new improved AI of Gladius: Relics of War plays an absolutely mean game and regularly destroys me even with minimal cheats. Modders (Glavius in particular) have proven that with proper care, some scripts and proper weighting, the AI becomes much stronger.

Hell, ive played a lot of HOI4, with its abysmal Vanilla AI, and some Modders have turned its AI legitimately frightening. So the potential is there. The AI just needs some good loving from you, PDX.