About Provence and Anjou

[Van Guérinecht]

Hi,

I was just wondering why the Provence tag was, well, the Provence tag. Meaning that in 1444 it was the dukes of Anjou who ruled over Provence. "Duke of Anjou" was the primary title of René (at least de facto), who rules Provence at game start. And in the game the Anjou province, which corresponds to the duchy of Anjou, is strangely owned by Provence. So in eu4 terms it's like if the junior partner (Provence) of a personal union inherited the lands of the senior partner (Anjou), which sounds weird from the game's perspective (and ahistorical). Besides, Provence's missions tree is clearly aimed at restoring the realm of the different houses of Anjou, so it puzzles me that the tag isn't just called Anjou.
Why do you guys think Paradox chose to name that tag Provence instead of Anjou ? I'd be very interested to know the reason why if anybody knows.

 

[Frossa]

Tags named after dynasties are not the norm in the game, and all exceptions are found outside of Europe. Mostly this is because there is no hard connection between a country and its ruling house, but this also means that the exceptions to the rule can have some strange scenarios play out where for example the Ottomans are not ruled by the Ottomans. Likely Paradox wants to avoid this wherever possible.

 

[jonjowett]

Probably because Rene's 1444 holdings are a right mess, scattered everywhere, but the majority of them are in Provence.

 

[Van Guérinecht]

Tags named after dynasties are not the norm in the game, and all exceptions are found outside of Europe. Mostly this is because there is no hard connection between a country and its ruling house, but this also means that the exceptions to the rule can have some strange scenarios play out where for example the Ottomans are not ruled by the Ottomans. Likely Paradox wants to avoid this wherever possible.

That's a good point, but Anjou is not just the name of the dynasty, it's the name of a duchy.

 

[Van Guérinecht]

Probably because Rene's 1444 holdings are a right mess, scattered everywhere, but the majority of them are in Provence.

That's actually a fair point, but it doesn't really convince me. To my eyes the current situation leads to too much weirdness.

 

[Sidolowka]

the Ottomans are not ruled by the Ottomans

Ottoman is the Anglicised version of Osman, the founder of the Ottoman dynasty. The ruling dynasty were thus the Osmanlis. The Ottomans were thus ruled by the Ottomans, the English just decided to localise their name.

Tags named after dynasties are not the norm in the game

The Timurids are also named after Temur (and the Timurids), Karaman after Karaman Bey (and the Karamanids), the Bahmanis after Bahman Shah and all of the 50 million different Japanese daimyos after their respective ruling dynasties.

all exceptions are found outside of Europe

Cilli is the German name of Celje, the ruling dynasty of Cilli.

Seeing how there are multiple instances of dynastic naming in the game already, if given the choice between Provence and Anjou, which are both titles, I don't see why Provence takes priority.

 

[Frossa]

Ottoman is the Anglicised version of Osman, the founder of the Ottoman dynasty. The ruling dynasty were thus the Osmanlis. The Ottomans were thus ruled by the Ottomans, the English just decided to localise their name.

Not sure what you're trying to say with this, it has nothing to do with what I initially stated.

Edit: I see what you mean now. You misunderstood me, what I was saying was that through the course of the game the dynasty of the Ottomans could in theory change to something else (although that's rarer these days with the Ottoman heir mechanics). I was not confused about the rendering of the dynasty name Osmanli.

The Timurids are also named after Temur (and the Timurids), Karaman after Karaman Bey (and the Karamanids), the Bahmanis after Bahman Shah and all of the 50 million different Japanese daimyos after their respective ruling dynasties.

The exceptions are numerous, indeed. But it just isn't plausible to assign a regional or provincial identification to the tribal regimes that scattered across the Middle East in 1444, because the geography of their rule was historically fluctuating and they often "migrated" in both a literal and figurative sense. I also think dynastical names in these regions are to make tags more identifiable with their historical counterparts, as that is how they are conventionally identified historiographically. "The Timurids" rings a bell better than anything else the name could be substituted with.
The same goes for Japan, where if the clan names would be substituted with for example the provinces they rule, it would probably make for a very flavourless and generic experience. Even if it leads to oddities such as in the starting dates of the late 1500s, where Toyotomi Hideyoshi is a non-Oda ruler of the Oda tag, this is a reasonable solution to be able to relate the game to reality better.

Cilli is the German name of Celje, the ruling dynasty of Cilli.

When I look this up, it seems the locality of the county was named Cilli, which subsequently turned into a dynasty. It is therefore a reasonable geographically tied name.

Seeing how there are multiple instances of dynastic naming in the game already, if given the choice between Provence and Anjou, which are both titles, I don't see why Provence takes priority.

I think you could make a case that Provence was the cultural, political and economic centre of gravity of the Anjou realms in 1444, seeing that is where the court was located, in effect making it a Provencal realm more than anything else. While it's not a perfect argument, together with the desire to minimalise coincidence between tag name and dynasty, I think it works well enough.

 

[Sidolowka]

Not sure what you're trying to say with this, it has nothing to do with what I initially stated.

Ah right I misread your intent, apologies.

I think you could make a case that Provence was the cultural, political and economic centre of gravity of the Anjou realms in 1444, seeing that is where the court was located, in effect making it a Provencal realm more than anything else. While it's not a perfect argument, together with the desire to minimalise coincidence between tag name, I think it works well enough.

Fair enough.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

Hi,

I was just wondering why the Provence tag was, well, the Provence tag. Meaning that in 1444 it was the dukes of Anjou who ruled over Provence. "Duke of Anjou" was the primary title of René (at least de facto), who rules Provence at game start. And in the game the Anjou province, which corresponds to the duchy of Anjou, is strangely owned by Provence. So in eu4 terms it's like if the junior partner (Provence) of a personal union inherited the lands of the senior partner (Anjou), which sounds weird from the game's perspective (and ahistorical). Besides, Provence's missions tree is clearly aimed at restoring the realm of the different houses of Anjou, so it puzzles me that the tag isn't just called Anjou.
Why do you guys think Paradox chose to name that tag Provence instead of Anjou ? I'd be very interested to know the reason why if anybody knows.

Because it points you to rene reclaiming his mediterranean holdings, and it is provence which he pawned to the french king whilst bar and lorraine passed to a distant relative

 

[DanubianCossak]

Hi,

I was just wondering why the Provence tag was, well, the Provence tag. Meaning that in 1444 it was the dukes of Anjou who ruled over Provence. "Duke of Anjou" was the primary title of René (at least de facto), who rules Provence at game start. And in the game the Anjou province, which corresponds to the duchy of Anjou, is strangely owned by Provence. So in eu4 terms it's like if the junior partner (Provence) of a personal union inherited the lands of the senior partner (Anjou), which sounds weird from the game's perspective (and ahistorical). Besides, Provence's missions tree is clearly aimed at restoring the realm of the different houses of Anjou, so it puzzles me that the tag isn't just called Anjou.
Why do you guys think Paradox chose to name that tag Provence instead of Anjou ? I'd be very interested to know the reason why if anybody knows.

Does Provance appear later in history as such? Sometimes they do that to save on the number of active tags. They will have anachronistic ones early on, in order to recycle a tag that appears centuries later if you scroll through history.

 

[Van Guérinecht]

I think you could make a case that Provence was the cultural, political and economic centre of gravity of the Anjou realms in 1444, seeing that is where the court was located, in effect making it a Provencal realm more than anything else. While it's not a perfect argument, together with the desire to minimalise coincidence between tag name and dynasty, I think it works well enough.

Well that's not entirely true, since René and his court kept moving between Anjou and Provence during all his reign. It wasn't until his late years, when Louis XI stole Anjou from him, that he definitely settled in Provence.

Because it points you to rene reclaiming his mediterranean holdings, and it is provence which he pawned to the french king whilst bar and lorraine passed to a distant relative

Yeah but the common point between all the pus you get to reclaim in the missions tree is not Provence, it's the houses of Anjou and the dukes of Anjou.
I really don't see any valable reason why Provence took priority over Anjou.

Does Provance appear later in history as such?

No, the county of Provence had not been independent for centuries in 1444 I think.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

Well that's not entirely true, since René and his court kept moving between Anjou and Provence during all his reign. It wasn't until his late years, when Louis XI stole Anjou from him, that he definitely settled in Provence.

Yeah but the common point between all the pus you get to reclaim in the missions tree is not Provence, it's the houses of Anjou and the dukes of Anjou.
I really don't see any valable reason why Provence took priority over Anjou.


No, the county of Provence had not been independent for centuries in 1444 I think.

Provence is de valois in game rather than valois anjou. Mission trees also take a very disparate number of sources to legitimise their claim

 

[The_Sound_Of_Violence]

I think you could make a case that Provence was the cultural, political and economic centre of gravity of the Anjou realms in 1444, seeing that is where the court was located, in effect making it a Provencal realm more than anything else.

What I can't stand is tag Provence losing all territories in actual Provence and having Anjou and Bar called “Provence”. (This of course applies to all similar cases.)

 

[The Norman Yoke]

What I can't stand is tag Provence losing all territories in actual Provence and having Anjou and Bar called “Provence”. (This of course applies to all similar cases.)

We just need the IR event where the diadochi get renamed if they lost their dynasty or core lands. Provence is primary tag of occitan so theyll always have claims to Provence, and you keep the French arms as England even without any holdings in france due to the claim remaining until the french revolution

 

[jonjowett]

What I can't stand is tag Provence losing all territories in actual Provence and having Anjou and Bar called “Provence”. (This of course applies to all similar cases.)

We just need the IR event where the diadochi get renamed if they lost their dynasty or core lands. Provence is primary tag of occitan so theyll always have claims to Provence, and you keep the French arms as England even without any holdings in france due to the claim remaining until the french revolution

Trouble is, there are a lot of similar cases, particularly for colonisers. By 1650, it's very normal for at least one European nation to have been evicted to some random island. Relocations within Europe are also pretty common (especially in the HRE). It seems a little excessive to ask for events to rename every single tag, when those tags have become basically irrelevant as a result of the relocation. Especially as a Scotland that relocated to the Caribbean should probably have a different name to a Scotland that relocated to South Africa.